Doctor Who: Fear Her

[butterfly]

First off, it's way too hot in Oregon right now.

Second, I really enjoyed this episode (The Girl in the Fireplace retains its title as the only New Who episode that I haven't liked). The Doctor and Rose were so incredibly adorable. And we got to see Rose being wonderful and competent without the Doctor, but the Doctor still got to help, and he's still managing to cram a whole lot of happiness into the smallish amount of time that they have. Also, they were so flirty in this episode. That 'are you deducting' scene was just... wow. And he assumed that she was calling him a 'beautiful boy' and was put out that she was talking to the cat! Adorable.

And, of course, even without the whole 'we know that Billie won't be there in S3' thing, the Doctor knows that the natural human lifespan is a whole lot shorter than his is (see: School Reunion). He wants to enjoy having Rose in his life while he can, because she'll die or leave (or he'll regenerate and things will change again). They have a finite amount of time together, so I don't understand why they shouldn't enjoy every moment that they can.

Of course, I was feeling this way back in Tooth and Claw when I was baffled that people found Rose and the Doctor smug and annoying (there are moments when they can be either/both of these things, but I have found them, by far, to be balanced by their moments of helpfulness and kindness and compassion). Up until they were separated, they had no clue that people were being held prisoner or that anyone might have died. For them, there was no reason to think that it was anything but a lark, because they don't know that this is one of their 'eventful enough to be filmed' adventures (but it always frustrates me when the audience expects the characters to know what's happening when they aren't on-screen).

Comments

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

*rereads* Oh, okay, I thought you were talking about his reaction to Reinette's death (that's what I assumed nos meant, that that was setting up how he'd take losing Rose)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I think it sets up that and decouples his emotions from Rose a wee bit? And certainly establishes the sexuality and love as going beyond Rose.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

His reaction to Reinette's death didn't bother me at all -- though he wouldn't have needed to have it if he'd thought for a second and remembered that the bloody fireplace zips forward in time in an uncontrollable way and had gone back to the past in his bleeding TARDIS.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I know this one! He thought he'd fixed the fireplace.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I bounce back between whether or not I think that's a good enough explanation. I suppose it can serve as an example of the Doctor's arrogance this season, but it sits poorly with me, regardless.

I just have a very hard time finding the Doctor in TGitF at all likable or even, in parts, watchable. And an unwatchable character is... well, a character that I don't want to bother watching. Like I said, luckily, I did enjoy him a great deal more in the next episode. I've liked him in every episode but that one, which is why it sticks out so.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

*shrug* I liked his emo woe. I really don't feel like he was any more arrogant than he usually is. Is it cos he was mean to Rose in it? Cos of you like her a lot and stuff, yeah?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't actually think that was mean to Rose in TGitF. A bit dismissive at times, but no worse than he can be at other times. Part of it is that the writer's priorities felt wack. Because this is Mickey's only full story with the group, as he's leaving next week, plus, we only have this one season of Rose, which they all knew, and yet he felt it was all right to write an episode without at least finding out what had happened in the last one. Or maybe he just felt pissy about not being in the loop about Bad Wolf and Torchwood. I don't know.

I just know that TGitF feels wrong to me, like the episode of a show that I wouldn't really like all that much, so I don't like having it in Doctor Who, which is a show that I've really been enjoying. Just... if this is what the show were, on a weekly basis, I wouldn't have watched past the first episode. I don't like the frivolousness of it, don't like the main character, don't like the way it treats love as if it were a party treat that you can pick up five for two dollars. Rose and Mickey are about the only parts of it that I do like. Okay, I did like the horse.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I think Moffat really just didn;t know about Mickey? Which is teh suck, but :(

I loved GitF. It hit the emo woe good for me. fave of the season so far. that and sarah and i feel like i should llike fear her cos no one else did?

it makes me go "DONT CRY EMO TIME LORD"

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think Moffat really just didn;t know about Mickey? Which is teh suck, but :(

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Moffat didn't know where Rose and Mickey were, relationship-wise, and nobody told him about Torchwood. What is up with that? Seriously, is he the guy who sits in the corner alone or something? And nobody told him about Bad Wolf last year, either. They had to sneak it in on a prop. Again, what is up with that? Will he still be out of the loop for whatever episode he writes next season?

I loved GitF. It hit the emo woe good for me. fave of the season so far. that and sarah and i feel like i should llike fear her cos no one else did?

Well, I really liked the emo in School Reunion. That felt like earned emo to me. With Girl, it just felt like they said -- "Right, there's emo here. Because we told you so. No, we don't need to explain it. You just have to trust us that the emo makes sense and should resonate."

And I did really enjoy Fear Her as well.

it makes me go "DONT CRY EMO TIME LORD"

Whereas it just make me want to smack him upside the head and tell him never to assume that he's fixed something when he hasn't quite figured out how it works. Also, that if he has a time-traveling ship, the smart thing would be to use that, the device that he knows works pretty well a good portion of the time, rather than the thing that he's only discovered that very day. And then maybe pat him on the shoulder and tell him that maybe he'll know better next time.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

and nobody told him about Torchwood.

On that one, I don't think he needed a ref in his ep anyway? Cos it's too early time-wise.


Will he still be out of the loop for whatever episode he writes next season?

He seems to get mostly left alone cos they trust him, I think. Gatiss as well, from the sounds of things.


With Girl, it just felt like they said -- "Right, there's emo here. Because we told you so. No, we don't need to explain it. You just have to trust us that the emo makes sense and should resonate."

How do you mean earned?


Whereas it just make me want to smack him upside the head and tell him never to assume that he's fixed something when he hasn't quite figured out how it works.

Well, he thinks he's fixed it and he's all high and it's a metaphor or something anyway and he's not good with those.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

On that one, I don't think he needed a ref in his ep anyway? Cos it's too early time-wise.

Well, that's how they fanwanked it on the commentary, but he did admit that, yeah, no one told him about it.

He seems to get mostly left alone cos they trust him, I think. Gatiss as well, from the sounds of things.

There's trust and then there's not sharing the season arc. The first one can make sense, the second one confuses me.

How do you mean earned?

Sarah Jane is an established DW character -- she's someone that the Doctor knew already, so there was a reason already established for him to care about her. With Reinette, a connection was formed because of telepathy. It was a shortcut. It felt like a shortcut and so I couldn't buy the romance.

Sarah and Rose have both traveled with the Doctor and gotten to know him the hard way (along the slower path, as Reinette might say). Reinette just got to magically know, in one moment. The emotion didn't feel real to me, because it wasn't allowed to develop -- it was just there and we were supposed to accept that as good enough. Heck, I was more willing to buy Nine's connection with Lynda.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Well, that's how they fanwanked it on the commentary, but he did admit that, yeah, no one told him about it.

I suspect RTD of being a bit of a control-freak sometimes.


There's trust and then there's not sharing the season arc. The first one can make sense, the second one confuses me.

Nah, Torchwood's not needed there and he must have known the emo arc because it fits *that* perfectly.


With Reinette, a connection was formed because of telepathy. It was a shortcut. It felt like a shortcut and so I couldn't buy the romance.

Well, Rusty said to use La Pompadour, so... I actually felt it earned it's romance more than S1 did, in that it gives a bit of reasoning even if said reasoning is a fanboy crush and some mindmeld mojo. Which mojo manages to utterly work with the Lonely God theme and then of course the whole thing gets into the love/loss by the end.

Reinette just got to magically know, in one moment.

45 mins romance. You either buy them or ya don't.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

RTD is a bit of control freak -- he wouldn't let anyone else write the actual plot parts of QaFUK as I recall. But that was his baby, and this is a shared thing, so it's slightly different. It's certainly not as if everyone else didn't know about TW. It was just Moffat, which is why it feels weird.

Well, Rusty said to use La Pompadour, so... I actually felt it earned it's romance more than S1 did, in that it gives a bit of reasoning even if said reasoning is a fanboy crush and some mindmeld mojo. Which mojo manages to utterly work with the Lonely God theme and then of course the whole thing gets into the love/loss by the end.

By S1 romance, do you mean Rose? I can't think of anything else in the season that would really qualify, but am truly baffled at the idea that the Rose/Doctor thing wasn't sufficiently explained in the text. I can understand not liking it, but not thinking that they didn't explain their reasoning.

45 mins romance. You either buy them or ya don't.

I buy the ones that feel deep enough to me -- I've bought 45 minutes romances in several shows. This one did not pull it off for me. It felt shallow and flat.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

It's certainly not as if everyone else didn't know about TW. It was just Moffat, which is why it feels weird.

Off-hand Moffat's the only one writing something set before Victoria's reign. And it is quite possible/likely that RTD put some of the other ep's refs in himself.


By S1 romance, do you mean Rose? I can't think of anything else in the season that would really qualify, but am truly baffled at the idea that the Rose/Doctor thing wasn't sufficiently explained in the text. I can understand not liking it, but not thinking that they didn't explain their reasoning.

It starts throwing it in there when they've known each other for mere hours, with no effort to explain anything. What explainations do exist (mostly fanonically) don't jive with the positive way in which the relationship is otherwise presented. They're in love because they are. There's no effort at rhyme or reason, which at the very least Moffat attempted in tGitF, however convincing one finds it.


This one did not pull it off for me. It felt shallow and flat.

*shrug* Worked for me.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Off-hand Moffat's the only one writing something set before Victoria's reign. And it is quite possible/likely that RTD put some of the other ep's refs in himself.

Before and after. Torchwood could have been on the ship somewhere. We know that it existed as far forward as the Fourth Great and Bountiful Human Empire (Stunted), so why not later?

It starts throwing it in there when they've known each other for mere hours, with no effort to explain anything.

Do you mean the 'so glad I met you' in Unquiet Dead? Because, while that scene makes me go all fluttery inside, I don't think of it as primarily romantic. I think of it as a really sweet friendship moment, maybe a defining moment, where Rose realizes the thing that Reinette feels the need to tell her in Girl, that knowing the Doctor is worth the danger you have to put up with. It's one of the moments that makes the romantic stuff work for me later on.

What explainations do exist (mostly fanonically) don't jive with the positive way in which the relationship is otherwise presented. They're in love because they are. There's no effort at rhyme or reason, which at the very least Moffat attempted in tGitF, however convincing one finds it.

I suppose... I don't believe that people fall in love because they know everything all about a person. I think (and this is based entirely on my own experiences) that love, strong real love, develops out of friendship. Out of people finding things that they have in common and enjoy together. Out of finding someone that you like spending time with, and wanting to face the trials of the world with that person. And that's why Rose and the Doctor work for me, is because they have compatible personalities and just like spending time with each other.

*shrug* Worked for me.

It seemed to work for quite a few old school Doctor Who fans, from what I read.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Before and after. Torchwood could have been on the ship somewhere.

But on the other hand, do we really want Yet Another Torchwood Anvil. Small mercy for which I thank the heavens, yo.


Do you mean the 'so glad I met you' in Unquiet Dead? Because, while that scene makes me go all fluttery inside, I don't think of it as primarily romantic. I think of it as a really sweet friendship moment, maybe a defining moment, where Rose realizes the thing that Reinette feels the need to tell her in Girl, that knowing the Doctor is worth the danger you have to put up with. It's one of the moments that makes the romantic stuff work for me later on.

If they'd started pushing it in S2 I could maybe have gone for it, but S1 is so damn heavy on selling Rose to a totally unearned degree. The Adam thing is just awful, we get a Dalek proclaiming their love, blah blah fishcakes. It's not subtle and it really doesn't get any sort of context.

Until S2, when it involves a grand retcon, someone's dead mistress and the rather harsh "normalising" of Rose. All good work, all a bit late.


I suppose... I don't believe that people fall in love because they know everything all about a person. I think (and this is based entirely on my own experiences) that love, strong real love, develops out of friendship. Out of people finding things that they have in common and enjoy together.

In which case, GitF didn't need to even try the mindmeld if it's just Something Inexplicable.

Even then, what do the Doctor and Rose have in common? Other than that she's in on his lifestyle by dint of... being there at the right time.



It seemed to work for quite a few old school Doctor Who fans, from what I read.

I think it helped that she was educated, accomplished and older than 19? Nah, I really do think it hit the type a bit closer for us.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Eeep, I can't tell you how much what you said comes across as "Rose just isn't good enough for the Doctor" and how that just makes me want to throw things. I'm sure that's not what you were going for, but that's really how I took it the first time I read through your comments.

I think we might be at the point where we're just going around in circles -- I think that the romance in Season One was well-done and not at all inexplicable and you think that it was rushed and badly-done and makes no sense. And if we reverse those things, we get to what we each think of Girl.

Still, yes, what they have in common -- they both enjoy the time-travel. She's actually thrilled and happy to be on this journey with him, which has not always been true of companions in the past. They make each other laugh, which is such an important thing in a relationship to me. I just don't see where 'they get along' is Something Inexplicable. They met, were amusing each other right off the bat ("It's not a price war."), and then just kept on finding things about each other that they liked. And the Doctor found Rose physically attractive as soon as Unquiet Dead, but I have no problem buying that -- Billie Piper's gorgeous. I do think that the Doctor is feeling romantically about Rose earlier than she feels the same back -- but he's also intensely more vulnerable and open than she is -- we see that in his reactions to Jabe, I thought.

Incidentally, what was the retcon in S2? I don't really see one.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that's not what you were going for, but that's really how I took it the first time I read through your comments.

It... may be a simmering concern in my mind.


I think that the romance in Season One was well-done and not at all inexplicable and you think that it was rushed and badly-done and makes no sense. And if we reverse those things, we get to what we each think of Girl.

It is a bit dizzying, innit?


She's actually thrilled and happy to be on this journey with him, which has not always been true of companions in the past.

Truth, RTD is very keen on companions wanting to be there.


I just don't see where 'they get along' is Something Inexplicable.

Not so much that as he seems to get along with a lot of people, so it's just not really selling it to me on the uniqueness of their relationship.


Incidentally, what was the retcon in S2? I don't really see one.

Oh, the Sarah thing. Well, I know some that didn't see it as a retcon, but they were kind of hardcore Sarahshippers to start with. Though theoretically the love for Rose itself implies a Grand Retcon where the Doctor probably got it on with a few of his ex-companions, the Sarah thing sort of sealed it.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

In hopes of explaining my feelings on the subject -- I saw Superman Returns today and I was just thinking about how I watched the Superman movies and Lois and Clark when I was younger and I was always such a fan of that relationship. And it made me think about how little an issue I have with certain types of inequality in relationships. I don't care that Superman is infinitely stronger than Lois. I don't care if the Doctor can sense things that Rose, as a human, never can. I don't care that Superman can speak pretty much every human language or that the Doctor knows things about space and time that Rose will never understand. I care about whether the parties involved place themselves on equal ground.

In other words, if the Doctor doesn't see himself as better than Rose, then the relationship is not hopelessly inequal. If the Doctor thinks that Rose's guts and cleverness and compassion are enough to put her on the same emotional ground that he occupies, it doesn't matter to me what the people around them might think. If Rose doesn't see him as too alien to love, then he isn't.

The Doctor saw something in Rose -- her stubbornness, her sparkle -- and he wanted to spend more time with her, get to know her better. The more he knew her, the more he liked her. Now, is Rose the only person in the world that he could have liked? Of course not. But she had the presence of mind to pull a fire alarm so that the idiots in the restarant would start to leave, she had the strength to stand up and save the Doctor's life while risking her own, and she had the curiosity to ask him who he was and when he wouldn't tell her, to try to find the answer on her own. That's more than enough to start on.

Oh, the Sarah thing. Well, I know some that didn't see it as a retcon, but they were kind of hardcore Sarahshippers to start with. Though theoretically the love for Rose itself implies a Grand Retcon where the Doctor probably got it on with a few of his ex-companions, the Sarah thing sort of sealed it.

Ah, I thought you meant some kind of S1/Rose retcon.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

In other words, if the Doctor doesn't see himself as
[..]
That's more than enough to start on.

*shrug* She's simply amazingly unexceptional with little to recommend her and a very noticable selfish streak. tGitF makes the Doctor look stupid in the heat of the moment, the Rose love makes him look like a fool with a midlife crisis.

Weirdly though I suspect that repeating the same pattern with the new girl is going to make the love for Rose look less WTF to me. Because the utterly insane thing right now is how much the series seems to want to pin to an extraordinarily average woman, treating her as special while also demanding that she be as generic as possible.

I dunno, it's like if Buffy suddenly hooked up with... Jonathan or Andrew or someone?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I suspect the true difference between our points of view lies in this: I do think that Rose is exceptional. She's exceptionally brave, curious, and compassionate, and I think she represents a kind of humanity that is beautiful to see. We differ in that I see Rose as an exceptional woman with her moments of pettiness, and you seem to see her as basically a petty woman with some moments that you enjoy. I don't see loving her as innately foolish the way that you seem to.

And, in all honesty, I would not object to Buffy hooking up with, say, the Jonathan that we saw in Conversations With Dead People, when he evidenced a depth of soul and strength that I had not quite expected. Of course, she would not have because, much as I love her, the girl is shallow enough not to want to date short boys. Andrew, on the other hand, she doesn't really respect, so I can't see her dating him either.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Wait, with caffeine in me I think it goes thus:

i. Rose is not remarkable enough for an emotional position that is sold as remarkable; the universe around her treats her as special when she has done almost nothing to earn it.
ii. S2 applies its harsh "specialectomy" by belatedly laying the groundwork of the Doctor's neediness and repeating pattern of fast, huge, highly-focussed love that wanders and latches onto anyone and anything regardless of what thing is actually like. Opening the worrying question of whether S1 was a lie or S2 is a back-pedal, but either way creating the problematic Ten/Rose that some felt let down by as a lessening of the love even though it wasn't.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I meant to say that I don't think that the Doctor was actually mean to her in this. That's a rather important part of the sentence.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

He was just being weird and alien, I reckon.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but he's nearly always those. Those don't bother me.