Doctor Who: Fear Her

[butterfly]

First off, it's way too hot in Oregon right now.

Second, I really enjoyed this episode (The Girl in the Fireplace retains its title as the only New Who episode that I haven't liked). The Doctor and Rose were so incredibly adorable. And we got to see Rose being wonderful and competent without the Doctor, but the Doctor still got to help, and he's still managing to cram a whole lot of happiness into the smallish amount of time that they have. Also, they were so flirty in this episode. That 'are you deducting' scene was just... wow. And he assumed that she was calling him a 'beautiful boy' and was put out that she was talking to the cat! Adorable.

And, of course, even without the whole 'we know that Billie won't be there in S3' thing, the Doctor knows that the natural human lifespan is a whole lot shorter than his is (see: School Reunion). He wants to enjoy having Rose in his life while he can, because she'll die or leave (or he'll regenerate and things will change again). They have a finite amount of time together, so I don't understand why they shouldn't enjoy every moment that they can.

Of course, I was feeling this way back in Tooth and Claw when I was baffled that people found Rose and the Doctor smug and annoying (there are moments when they can be either/both of these things, but I have found them, by far, to be balanced by their moments of helpfulness and kindness and compassion). Up until they were separated, they had no clue that people were being held prisoner or that anyone might have died. For them, there was no reason to think that it was anything but a lark, because they don't know that this is one of their 'eventful enough to be filmed' adventures (but it always frustrates me when the audience expects the characters to know what's happening when they aren't on-screen).

Comments

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

In other words, if the Doctor doesn't see himself as
[..]
That's more than enough to start on.

*shrug* She's simply amazingly unexceptional with little to recommend her and a very noticable selfish streak. tGitF makes the Doctor look stupid in the heat of the moment, the Rose love makes him look like a fool with a midlife crisis.

Weirdly though I suspect that repeating the same pattern with the new girl is going to make the love for Rose look less WTF to me. Because the utterly insane thing right now is how much the series seems to want to pin to an extraordinarily average woman, treating her as special while also demanding that she be as generic as possible.

I dunno, it's like if Buffy suddenly hooked up with... Jonathan or Andrew or someone?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I suspect the true difference between our points of view lies in this: I do think that Rose is exceptional. She's exceptionally brave, curious, and compassionate, and I think she represents a kind of humanity that is beautiful to see. We differ in that I see Rose as an exceptional woman with her moments of pettiness, and you seem to see her as basically a petty woman with some moments that you enjoy. I don't see loving her as innately foolish the way that you seem to.

And, in all honesty, I would not object to Buffy hooking up with, say, the Jonathan that we saw in Conversations With Dead People, when he evidenced a depth of soul and strength that I had not quite expected. Of course, she would not have because, much as I love her, the girl is shallow enough not to want to date short boys. Andrew, on the other hand, she doesn't really respect, so I can't see her dating him either.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

She's exceptionally brave, curious, and compassionate,

She shows those things sometimes, but it's never really to any degree I'd consider exceptional or even notable. No more compassionate than anyone else (less, in some instances, as the discontent with her this year implies), not amazingly curious. Brave I'd give even if it often works out badly. But mostly she's just so average that she never seems notable in any way.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

You must know a much better class of people than I do. I love people in general, but they can be ignorant and petty and foolish. Rose has consistently show compassion -- from the plumber in EotW to the kid in L&M and so many people in between. She's often the person who provides not just verbal emotional support, but physical support to the people that they're helping. She's so brave that it occasionally crosses into recklessness. And she's curious -- so many people don't question the world around them, don't ask questions, don't search out the places where things don't make sense.

Again, if most of the people that you know are braver, more curious, and more compassionate than Rose, then I envy you your acquaintances.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

You must know a much better class of people than I do.

Heh, no. She's okay. She's just not... vastly wonderful to me. Like I say I think it just treats her as more amazing than she is. She ticks off a list that she'd need to to in any way fill the narrative role ("kind, not too thick, bit of bravado") and yet other than that she's a bit flat.


Again, if most of the people that you know are braver, more curious, and more compassionate than Rose, then I envy you your acquaintances.

She is not remarkable within the universe she inhabits. Even in the real world, I am not that convinced she'd be notable. She wasn't in her own "real" world, which I suppose is the point. It wants her to be both average and exceptional and I while I can appreciate the craft that went into creating a character so stunningly average, I don't feel like that averageness can bear the weight of uniqueness that is placed upon her. She can't be both things, surely?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I suppose that, in many ways, I identify with Rose as well as enjoy her as a character. I'm in a completely unremarkable job, but I don't feel that that makes me a completely unremarkable person. Not everyone is put into a position where they get the chance to show off the best parts of themselves, but because of her getting to know the Doctor, Rose can.

I certainly think that, yes, Rose was crafted the way she was because that's what this story needed -- a focal point, a person to represent to the Doctor what it was he was saving when he sacrificed his people. So, yes, she needs to both be 'every human' and also to be the potential of humanity. That's what she is, in the beginning of Rose, untapped potential. The Doctor gives her a chance to fulfill that potential in a way that she'd never been taught how, because she'd been surrounded by people who only expected life to be one average day after another. She'd never been taught to expect more, and yet she did ("That shop's been giving you airs and graces.") and when she was given a chance to get more out of life, she took it.

Which is why the idea offered by some that she should 'go back home' to her mother at the end of the season rather horrifies me.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Not everyone is put into a position where they get the chance to show off the best parts of themselves, but because of her getting to know the Doctor, Rose can.

Being of course the concept. I just never really liked her. I dunno, maybe it's just that it's a basic that she should grow into herself that I'm not all that moved when she does. That and the person she becomes is someone I don't like all that much.


Which is why the idea offered by some that she should 'go back home' to her mother at the end of the season rather horrifies me.

I think she probably will. Unless Jackie dies or something.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Being of course the concept. I just never really liked her. I dunno, maybe it's just that it's a basic that she should grow into herself that I'm not all that moved when she does. That and the person she becomes is someone I don't like all that much.

I guess I just really don't see how there's any way that they could have written Rose that would have made you happy. Her character's premise is 'shopgirl who discovers her own potential' and if that's a storyline that you just innately dislike, it's doomed for you (whereas 'elegant lady who is irresistible to men and even loved by those women that she is, of course, so much more beautiful and wonderful than' is a character premise that I dislike, so once I discovered in the episode that that's who Reinette was, she didn't have all that much chance with me).

Which is why the idea offered by some that she should 'go back home' to her mother at the end of the season rather horrifies me.

I think she probably will. Unless Jackie dies or something.

Rose going home really does sound like the most depressing ending in the world to me. If they do that to her, I probably wouldn't trust them enough to give series three a try.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

guess I just really don't see how there's any way that they could have written Rose that would have made you happy

*shrug* I could have liked her a lot more. Just it's all so fast and I have no PoV reason to latch onto her and, yeah, she's not a type I get that interested in.

Her character's premise is 'shopgirl who discovers her own potential' and if that's a storyline that you just innately dislike, it's doomed for you

It worked with me on Mickey for some reason. Sort of in the middle for Jack. I just... don't see Rose as really doing anything as great as her centrality might suggest. (And I realise that this may simply be that RTD is not that bothered about plot and activity and is more into emotional grounding, so if she's serving that purpose then on those terms it works.) She never... does anything that I wouldn't expect her to do as a matter of course. So it could well just be that her narrative role has no novelty value for me.


Rose going home really does sound like the most depressing ending in the world to me. If they do that to her, I probably wouldn't trust them enough to give series three a try.

Nothing else they can do with her really. I think she'll do something a bit fancy as well (investigate on her own like Sarah? Something like that) but it's homeward bound, I think.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

*shrug* I could have liked her a lot more. Just it's all so fast and I have no PoV reason to latch onto her and, yeah, she's not a type I get that interested in.

How could you have liked her more? Can you give me any specific examples of what you'd have liked them to have done differently? I truly am honestly interested.

It worked with me on Mickey for some reason. Sort of in the middle for Jack. I just... don't see Rose as really doing anything as great as her centrality might suggest. (And I realise that this may simply be that RTD is not that bothered about plot and activity and is more into emotional grounding, so if she's serving that purpose then on those terms it works.) She never... does anything that I wouldn't expect her to do as a matter of course. So it could well just be that her narrative role has no novelty value for me.

Remind me of something -- you dislike Buffy and like Faith, I believe. What are your other likes and dislikes among the Buffy/Angel females?

Nothing else they can do with her really. I think she'll do something a bit fancy as well (investigate on her own like Sarah? Something like that) but it's homeward bound, I think.

You hate her character that much? To condemn her to something that she's flat-out told us is not enough for her?

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

How could you have liked her more? Can you give me any specific examples of what you'd have liked them to have done differently? I truly am honestly interested.

Hinderance is that she's not hitting the type I love - too young, not intelligent enough, not really a moral player, doesn't seem to have any interests, is not all that funny.

Other than that? *has a think* I think the treatment of Mickey was huge burden, because I don't love her enough to feel comfortable with it. She could have been a more proactive (Like in Fear Her! Yay!) and a bit less... it's not fair maybe but she comes over a bit smug and I am never sure how much that's just something undefinable in the performance. And she could have a bit of perspective and bitchslap the Doctor a bit more.


Remind me of something -- you dislike Buffy and like Faith, I believe. What are your other likes and dislikes among the Buffy/Angel females?

I went on and off most of them at various points? I never really fell for Cordelia, could cope with Willow for the most part. Tara was lovely. Fred I wavered on but I mostly liked her I think. Dawn grew on me quite fast.


You hate her character that much? To condemn her to something that she's flat-out told us is not enough for her?

No, hate would be wanting her dead or something. It sort of weirds me out that I want her to get the happy ending that's always been about family. I can't see her going back to that shop, which would just be depressing, but the happy ending is getting to go home and do something interesting as well. Is it not?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hinderance is that she's not hitting the type I love - too young, not intelligent enough, not really a moral player, doesn't seem to have any interests, is not all that funny.

In other words, there really isn't much of a way they could have made a Rose (with the premise that Rose had) into a character that you liked, because you dislike her premise. Which is, of course, valid. I couldn't get into Farscape because I couldn't get invested into the characters that I was being told to enjoy watching (naturally, I disagree with you re: Rose's intelligence, morality, funniness, and whether or not she has interests, but at this point, this should not come as a surprise to either of us).

And, of course, if she'd been the kind of character that you could have loved, I likely would have disliked her and stopped watching with Rose.

I never really fell for Cordelia, could cope with Willow for the most part. Tara was lovely. Fred I wavered on but I mostly liked her I think. Dawn grew on me quite fast.

Ha, I'm vastly amused that I agree with all of those but Willow (I only ever warmed to her in S7, and even there, not all that much) and Dawn (who I took longer to like).

No, hate would be wanting her dead or something. It sort of weirds me out that I want her to get the happy ending that's always been about family. I can't see her going back to that shop, which would just be depressing, but the happy ending is getting to go home and do something interesting as well. Is it not?

Is it? Only if the person wants to go home. If the person has specifically stated how much they adore traveling and how little they want to go home, it sounds more like a terrible punishment to send them there.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Which is, of course, valid.

It was quite sad for me. I could have liked her more than I managed to, though. Mickey worked cos he was this amusing semi-reluctant hero people kept picking on and that's not the type either. It confuses me. I think fandom did not help by telling me she was the best thing ever. *ponders*


I couldn't get into Farscape because I couldn't get invested into the characters that I was being told to enjoy watching

I saw that once or twice and couldn't really get into it.

(naturally, I disagree with you re: Rose's intelligence, morality, funniness, and whether or not she has interests, but at this point, this should not come as a surprise to either of us).

She got that stuff to a degree, but just not enough to click my buttons and be at an advantage before she starts doing anything.

And, of course, if she'd been the kind of character that you could have loved, I likely would have disliked her and stopped watching with Rose.

Heh!


Ha, I'm vastly amused that I agree with all of those but Willow (I only ever warmed to her in S7, and even there, not all that much) and Dawn (who I took longer to like).

Dawn was weird cos I'd heard she was rubbish and then she was quite good for what she was.


Is it? Only if the person wants to go home. If the person has specifically stated how much they adore traveling and how little they want to go home, it sounds more like a terrible punishment to send them there.

She can't keep travelling forever, so they have to leave her somewhere, yeah? And the series is huge on family and this year has had a couple of moments that felt like quiet disapproval of Rose taking her own family rather for granted (played against the increasingly explicit rendering of the Doctor's loss as "family"). She just doesn't know what she has and it's quite sad.

Even if it hadn't gone on at vast length about family and the cost of the Doctor's lifestyle, what else could they really do with her to write her out? Death's just cruel, and incredibly depressing, and she can't just get abandoned somewhere.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It was quite sad for me. I could have liked her more than I managed to, though. Mickey worked cos he was this amusing semi-reluctant hero people kept picking on and that's not the type either. It confuses me.

*shrugs*

Don't know. I liked Mickey all the way back in Rose (the childish, prodding relationship that he and Rose had amused me).

I think fandom did not help by telling me she was the best thing ever. *ponders*

People always think well of the characters that they like. It's nothing new. I like Rose best of all the companions that I've met.

She can't keep travelling forever, so they have to leave her somewhere, yeah? And the series is huge on family and this year has had a couple of moments that felt like quiet disapproval of Rose taking her own family rather for granted (played against the increasingly explicit rendering of the Doctor's loss as "family"). She just doesn't know what she has and it's quite sad.

Hmm. I suppose one could take it that way. On the other hand, if someone told me that I don't 'know what I have' with my family and that I should move back in with one of my parents or even have them more in my life than they are, I'd be half-tempted to smack them. Moving backward isn't a good answer to me.

I want Rose to move forward, whatever it is that she ends up doing.

Even if it hadn't gone on at vast length about family and the cost of the Doctor's lifestyle, what else could they really do with her to write her out? Death's just cruel, and incredibly depressing, and she can't just get abandoned somewhere.

She could choose to get abandoned somewhere to save people. I do want it to be something that she chooses, but I don't want her to go backwards. It would feel like such a waste.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I suppose one could take it that way. On the other hand, if someone told me that I don't 'know what I have' with my family and that I should move back in with one of my parents or even have them more in my life than they are, I'd be half-tempted to smack them. Moving backward isn't a good answer to me.
I want Rose to move forward, whatever it is that she ends up doing.

Well, I'd hope she's not just moving back into that flat and whatever. But closer than she is now still includes the entire planet, so there's that.


She could choose to get abandoned somewhere to save people.

Oh, that's harsh!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Her choice, the life she chooses. How's that harsh? If I'd... huh, and the whole 'how should Rose end up' really does seem to have a lot to do with personal preference. Because if I were where Rose is, now, if I'd been given her choices and been brave enough to do the same as she, I'd be like her, not imagining why I'd ever want to leave (and she still feels that way, as of the narration of Army of Ghosts). I'd rather choose something huge and fail than be put into a cage.

I suppose that's why the idea of her going back to Earth, living there, feels so horrible to me. I see Rose as a bird that was caged for nineteen years, didn't know anything better than the cage, but now she's seen the sky, and flown in it, and I can't imagine any cruelty worse than forcing her back into the cage that the Doctor let her out of.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I only insist so on the homeward option cos it seems to foregrounded in the series. The growing up thing will be huge, I think, and some emo gubbins about the strength to stay still for five minutes.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

The growing up thing seems to be important, but you and I disagree on the meaning, I think. Though we won't know what Russell means by 'growing up' until next Saturday, I suppose.

It just would be odd, and rather like the complete opposite of last series, and I'm not sure that I can watch a series so likely to give me emotional whiplash.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Though we won't know what Russell means by 'growing up' until next Saturday, I suppose.

*nod* I think it'll be weird whatever happens because fandom seems to be watching in very divergent terms on some things, so that there's almost a feeling that there's two separate seasons and we're only just now about to find out which one we were actually watching? As in, like you say, what does RTD think "growing up" means.

But I don't think he's just done a 180. *ponders*