Doctor Who: Fear Her

[butterfly]

First off, it's way too hot in Oregon right now.

Second, I really enjoyed this episode (The Girl in the Fireplace retains its title as the only New Who episode that I haven't liked). The Doctor and Rose were so incredibly adorable. And we got to see Rose being wonderful and competent without the Doctor, but the Doctor still got to help, and he's still managing to cram a whole lot of happiness into the smallish amount of time that they have. Also, they were so flirty in this episode. That 'are you deducting' scene was just... wow. And he assumed that she was calling him a 'beautiful boy' and was put out that she was talking to the cat! Adorable.

And, of course, even without the whole 'we know that Billie won't be there in S3' thing, the Doctor knows that the natural human lifespan is a whole lot shorter than his is (see: School Reunion). He wants to enjoy having Rose in his life while he can, because she'll die or leave (or he'll regenerate and things will change again). They have a finite amount of time together, so I don't understand why they shouldn't enjoy every moment that they can.

Of course, I was feeling this way back in Tooth and Claw when I was baffled that people found Rose and the Doctor smug and annoying (there are moments when they can be either/both of these things, but I have found them, by far, to be balanced by their moments of helpfulness and kindness and compassion). Up until they were separated, they had no clue that people were being held prisoner or that anyone might have died. For them, there was no reason to think that it was anything but a lark, because they don't know that this is one of their 'eventful enough to be filmed' adventures (but it always frustrates me when the audience expects the characters to know what's happening when they aren't on-screen).

Comments

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Wait, with caffeine in me I think it goes thus:

i. Rose is not remarkable enough for an emotional position that is sold as remarkable; the universe around her treats her as special when she has done almost nothing to earn it.
ii. S2 applies its harsh "specialectomy" by belatedly laying the groundwork of the Doctor's neediness and repeating pattern of fast, huge, highly-focussed love that wanders and latches onto anyone and anything regardless of what thing is actually like. Opening the worrying question of whether S1 was a lie or S2 is a back-pedal, but either way creating the problematic Ten/Rose that some felt let down by as a lessening of the love even though it wasn't.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

The only place in S2 where I felt like there was emotional dissonance was Girl. For me, everything else completely tracks from what we got in S1. Which is, again, part of why I have such an issue with the episode. It really doesn't feel as though it fits at all.

And, wow, we definitely disagree so much on Rose. I adored her from the beginning -- her attempts to make sense of the Doctor's world, her refusal to let go of finding out the truth and searching it out on her own, her ability point out the trees that the Doctor misses while he's looking for the forest, her incredible bravery in saving the Doctor, and the look on her face when she runs into the TARDIS -- I was in love with Rose Tyler before the first episode was over, and each episode has only made me love her more.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

It really doesn't feel as though it fits at all.

But GitF is like S2 in 45 minutes. The love, the loss, the loneliness. And it's Ten's Dalek in that it lays out his motivations and his way of looking at the world. And more than School Reunion it lays out what life will be like for him after Rose. Same as it always was, with a few happy memories and some sad ones. It's incredibly tragic in that, but with that resignation to the inevitability of time and change. "Everything ends" but with clockdroids and a horse.

I adored her from the beginning -- her attempts to make sense of the Doctor's world, her refusal to let go of finding out the truth and searching it out on her own, her ability point out the trees that the Doctor misses while he's looking for the forest, her incredible bravery in saving the Doctor, and the look on her face when she runs into the TARDIS

Her first episode I found her perfectly capable and potentially interesting. But I could never have loved her, and the universe loving her just made me go off her because it felt so absurd.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

But GitF is like S2 in 45 minutes. The love, the loss, the loneliness. And it's Ten's Dalek in that it lays out his motivations and his way of looking at the world. And more than School Reunion it lays out what life will be like for him after Rose. Same as it always was, with a few happy memories and some sad ones. It's incredibly tragic in that, but with that resignation to the inevitability of time and change. "Everything ends" but with clockdroids and a horse.

Yeah... don't see it. I can't even see where you see it. I see dissonance and inconsistency and something that attempts to detract from what the rest of the season is about. I see shoddy workmanship and a silly resolution. I see missing scenes that I would have enjoyed and scenes present that I found annoying and frustrating. Magic and illusion and nothing of substance.

Her first episode I found her perfectly capable and potentially interesting. But I could never have loved her, and the universe loving her just made me go off her because it felt so absurd.

The Doctor loved her. Jack loved her. Adam thought she was cute. Most people they encounter don't find her irritating (Queen Victoria being an exception), but I don't see where we're meant to think that the universe is in love with her, or even a substantial portion of it. Again, this may be a result of me not being anywhere near the apparently overwhelming media blitz, but I really don't see the 'everyone loves her' thing actually happening in the show.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I can't even see where you see it. I see dissonance and inconsistency and something that attempts to detract from what the rest of the season is about. I see shoddy workmanship and a silly resolution. I see missing scenes that I would have enjoyed and scenes present that I found annoying and frustrating. Magic and illusion and nothing of substance.

I think it has everything it needs. Mickey is indeed a problem, but then it couldn't really stand having to deal with that as well so we assume that Rose got over her moment of angst and tried to make the best of it. We have the Doctor acting so like himself that it hurts (and hurts other people within the story), we have the compression of time to reinforce School Reunion, and a horse. Thematically, it's like the whole season in one episode.

I... don't see how you don't see it.


The Doctor loved her. Jack loved her. Adam thought she was cute. Most people they encounter don't find her irritating (Queen Victoria being an exception), but I don't see where we're meant to think that the universe is in love with her, or even a substantial portion of it.

Like you just said, the Doctor's in love with her, Jack's in love with her, no one ever calls her on anything other than Mickey. The emphasis on all the love does make it strange that she above all other people, no matter how interesting or brave or intelligent or whatever, is pretty noticable. We even have Sarah saying "you're clever" when nothing she's seen would vastly suggest that. Which is a symptom the tell-don't-show the series sometimes falls into with everyone, but as the PoV character it's just more noticable on Rose.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think it has everything it needs. Mickey is indeed a problem, but then it couldn't really stand having to deal with that as well so we assume that Rose got over her moment of angst and tried to make the best of it.

Except for how he's the odd man out again in the Cyberman two-parter. But hey, who needs emotional consistency when you have a horse.

We have the Doctor acting so like himself that it hurts (and hurts other people within the story),

Honestly, most of the Doctor's behavior in this episode feels so unlike him in the rest of the series. If this is the Doctor that we had in the rest of the series, I would have stopped watching long ago.

we have the compression of time to reinforce School Reunion,

For me, SR is part of why this episode feels so unneeded. It covers the same ground, but much more poorly.

Thematically, it's like the whole season in one episode.

*shrugs*

Honestly, I don't want to claim that I know the theme of the series until the finale airs. But, again, if Girl informs us about the way the Doctor will be in S3, I may end up quitting that season part of the way through, because I really did not like that Doctor.

Like you just said, the Doctor's in love with her, Jack's in love with her, no one ever calls her on anything other than Mickey.

And Gwen in The Unquiet Dead called her on being a little bit condescending. And Queen Victoria in Tooth and Claw. Reinette. Her alternate universe mom and dad in the Cyberman two-parter. And, yes, Mickey in Boomtown, who I do believe that we were supposed to take seriously. And there are quite a few people who didn't take to her -- Jabe was much more interested in the Doctor, she pissed off Cassandra, Adam turned out to be more interested in tech than in her, and Rodney in Bad Wolf called her stupid to her face.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Except for how he's the odd man out again in the Cyberman two-parter. But hey, who needs emotional consistency when you have a horse.

I think Rose tried and then lapsed when she got used to him being there. Otherwise he'd probably just have demanded to be sent home before they went anywhere else.


Honestly, most of the Doctor's behavior in this episode feels so unlike him in the rest of the series.

Really? I thought it totally fitted. He's impulsive, loved-up, funny, making it up as he goes along, existentially lonely. What does he do that's abnormal for him?

For me, SR is part of why this episode feels so unneeded. It covers the same ground, but much more poorly.

Nah, I think SR needs the reinforcement precisely because so many people seemed to come out of that one somehow convinced that "oh, it doesn't apply to Rose, it wouldn't be like that for her."


Honestly, I don't want to claim that I know the theme of the series until the finale airs. But, again, if Girl informs us about the way the Doctor will be in S3, I may end up quitting that season part of the way through, because I really did not like that Doctor.

I'm not sure what you think he was like in GitF as opposed to elsewhere?


(Here is a link thing to someone's meta on Rose as PoV/identification (http://drakyndra.livejournal.com/116622.html), cos it may make sense of our divergent views of her? I linked! That is like a footnote or something, yay!)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Really? I thought it totally fitted. He's impulsive, loved-up, funny, making it up as he goes along, existentially lonely. What does he do that's abnormal for him?

It's hard to explain the warning bells in my heart that just said, "Wrong, wrong, wrong," when I watched the episode. He just... didn't feel right. He said some of the right words, did some of the things that made me think, "right, that's the Doctor," but then... why didn't he care about taking the slow path? Why were his doors open when he was looking into Reinette's head? And, this isn't entirely his fault, but the only place I have not found, "Well, you've grown up," to be a creepy sentiment is Gigi. Everywhere else, it creeps me the hell out. Ooo, the child has grown breasts -- I am in lust. Just... creeps me out.

He just felt wrong, felt off and that made the whole episode feel off.

(Here is a link thing to someone's meta on Rose as PoV/identification, cos it may make sense of our divergent views of her? I linked! That is like a footnote or something, yay!)

I thought it was an interesting essay. She does hit on an important point -- Girl did leave me cold. And if that's how they plan to write the Doctor, post-Rose, then S3 may end up leaving me cold.

I sincerely hope that it doesn't -- I've liked the show, quite a lot. I've liked the earlier Who episodes that I've seen. But if I'm not having fun next season, I'll stop watching.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

why didn't he care about taking the slow path?

He's just stuck and making the best of it. He'd go nuts fairly quickly, but at that moment he's resigned to it. He's (wrongly) assuming the loneliness might be fixed a bit, which is messed up but there's worse places to be and at least he still has all his own teeth.

Why were his doors open when he was looking into Reinette's head?

She just nudged it. Like he says he doesn't make a habit of it and she's very keen on finding out and taking some initative and... he probably let her in a wee bit. Cos he's emo.

Everywhere else, it creeps me the hell out. Ooo, the child has grown breasts -- I am in lust. Just... creeps me out.

IT WAS HELLA CREEPY YES.


I thought it was an interesting essay. She does hit on an important point -- Girl did leave me cold. And if that's how they plan to write the Doctor, post-Rose, then S3 may end up leaving me cold.

I am still unsure what you mean by "if that's how they plan to write the Doctor"? But then like I said I thought he was very much himself in GitF. Well, himself in a rather magnified way, because it's an odd situation and he's trying to adapt.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

IT WAS HELLA CREEPY YES.

Something we can agree about!

And again, the dissonance in the Doctor feels so obvious to me that it's hard for me to explain in words that I haven't already used. Suffice to say, he felt different enough that he was a version of himself that I didn't like. And I suspect I would dislike that version regardless of what else is happening.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I... think our varying probably comes down to Rose, in a roundabout fashion? That's the one major dissonance I could see as huge in that one?