Doctor Who: the Doctor, loneliness, and Rose=Vince=Rose

[butterfly]

His loneliness eats away at him, wears away at him, every moment of every day. Every second that his mind reaches out and he's the only one left. There's this silence, this gaping aching hole that was created when his people died. In the Confidential for Aliens in London (entitled I Get A Sidekick Out Of You), Christopher Eccleston says this: "The notion is that the Doctor's lonely and Rose is bored. He loses some of his loneliness and she loses all of her boredom, when they meet."

Rose is human. She can't fill that empty space in his head where the Time Lords used to be. But she can hold his hand and smile at him and things can be better than they were before he met her. That's enough for both of them, that she helps. One of the things that series one and two put a lot of focus on is what an empathetic character Rose is -- "These people are dying and Rose would care," the Doctor says in New Earth, knowing for certain that something is wrong with Cassandra-Rose (that something's been done to her) because she only worries about whether or not she'll get hurt. From Raffalo and Gwyneth to Chloe and Trish, Rose notices people, notices when things are wrong, and she cares.

She notices that the Doctor's hurting and offers her company. Knowing that she can't make up for the loss of his people, but willing to give what she can to help him. The Doctor is a soldier after a war, one that lost everything. Nothing can ever make that all better. But life can be made endurable, even joyous. Rose did that for him -- made him smile and flirt and care. He looked at her and saw someone that made the universe beautiful and vivid and alive again. And, as they say, that's not nothing.

Additionally, something that I said ages ago about QaF (UK):

Vince makes the comment "I'm always Kate Winslet." As a complaint, it's an interesting one, as Kate's Rose is the Desired Object of the movie Titanic, as well as being the narrator. She's the chased, not the chaser. Like Vince, Rose has to break out of the boxes that her lifestyle has her trapped in, in order to take a chance with the person who is living life moment by moment. Both Rose and Vince are English, while Jack and Stuart aren't. And both Rose and Vince do end up going to America and become more fearless because of the person who loves them...

...Meta-wise, making Vince 'Kate Winslet' tells us that he's the adored one who doesn't quite realise what he's being offered at first. And that Stuart is a free spirit and a talented man, but that's obvious enough (there's also the artist=ad exec connection)...

...When rewatching the first episode, in light of knowing just how much Stuart falls apart without Vince, it's actually pretty easy to see how much he depends on Vince. He depends on Vince to drive him home safely and to bring back his car. He depends on Vince to be there the instant that he needs Vince -- the first phone call we see is Stuart to Vince, not vice versa.

My brain is now going to break over the Rose (Titanic)=Vince=Rose (Doctor Who) thing that's now popped up in my head. Different boxes, that's all. Different labels.

Also, going by Martha's "It's all your fault," turn in The Sound of the Drums, I think she may now officially qualify as Nathan (who also completely misjudged the relationship he got in the middle of, but who grew up and became a sympathetic character in the end).

Everything I needed to know about New Who, I learned from Queer as Folk (UK), apparently.

Comments

[honorh.livejournal.com]

See, this is why I truly don't understand the people who claim Rose never cared about anyone other than the Doctor (and Jack, if they're feeling generous). From the very start, Rose was always concerned about others. She made friends and comforted the people whose lives were thrown into chaos in the Doctor's wake. She always cared. That's one of the things the Doctor so loved about her.

Oddly, the line you quote from "The Sound of Drums" brought me closer to identifying with Martha than anything else so far, because it felt *real*--her family was under attack, she was scared, she was upset, she was angry, and she lashed out at the Doctor because he's supposed to *fix* these things, dammit! I'll be glad when she loses the crush, though. For me, that's the least effective part of the character.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

See, this is why I truly don't understand the people who claim Rose never cared about anyone other than the Doctor (and Jack, if they're feeling generous). From the very start, Rose was always concerned about others. She made friends and comforted the people whose lives were thrown into chaos in the Doctor's wake. She always cared. That's one of the things the Doctor so loved about her.

Indeed. Rose being someone who cares is a canon fact about her character. Anyone who claims otherwise is ignoring mounds of direct canon and the Doctor's own personal opinion of her. Honestly, I've gotten so that I stop taking people seriously if they try to argue against the actual canon of Rose's personality.

Oddly, the line you quote from "The Sound of Drums" brought me closer to identifying with Martha than anything else so far, because it felt *real*--her family was under attack, she was scared, she was upset, she was angry, and she lashed out at the Doctor because he's supposed to *fix* these things, dammit! I'll be glad when she loses the crush, though. For me, that's the least effective part of the character.

Oh, I was thrilled to get it. Personality! At last! It did really remind me of Nathan yelling at Stuart that his parents finding out was all Stuart's fault, though. Just like it was Nathan's choice to follow Stuart about, it was Martha's choice to go with the Doctor. She didn't have to and there was plenty of evidence of the danger. As Rose said, she wanted to go, and that isn't the Doctor's fault.

Plus, I do like Nathan. I think he's a brat, but a likable one. And I liked him much better once he got over his crush on Stuart, so I suspect Martha growing up would also make me like her a great deal more.

[sizequeen.livejournal.com]

I agree that Rose does care about people and she is very empathetic, but I think the people who say that Rose only cares for the Doctor recognize the cliquishness of their coupling and their mutual fascination. They also might see Rose's treatment of her mum and Mickey as callous. When Rose disobeys the Doctor's order twice to go back into danger to help the Doctor, she's not thinking of her actions will affect her family. She chooses the Doctor every single time.


I imagine that Rose is much like the Doctor. I bet he angered and hurt everyone he knew when he ran from Gallifrey. I think that's kind of a brave thing--thinking of yourself and refusing to be cowed by other people's expectations. It's an act of seeming selfishness that requires enormous strength.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

True in every particular. Rose chose to live the life that she wanted to live, not the life that her mum or Mickey thought that she should. And that is selfish, to the extent that wanting your own life is selfish. But it's the kind of selfish that it isn't bad to be.

[sizequeen.livejournal.com]

Diana, that's a great reading of the Stuart/Vince 'ship. I mean, I know that Stuart loves Vince, but this analysis of Vince and the chased, is one I never thought of. You're right! Stuart is the one whose always trying to get Vince into bed. It's Stuart whose waiting for Vince to break away from everything and come with him. It's Stuart's life that needs managing from Vince, not the reverse.


Martha as the Nathan of DW is a great and sympathetic analogy. Nathan thinks he knows what Stuart needs and he thinks he understands what Stuart and Vince have together, but he's only seeing the surface of things.

This post reminds me that I've had an essay percolating for a while, comparing DW to QAF that will never get written, so I may just post the notes....

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Martha as the Nathan of DW is a great and sympathetic analogy. Nathan thinks he knows what Stuart needs and he thinks he understands what Stuart and Vince have together, but he's only seeing the surface of things.

Precisely, yeah. And it gives me great hope that Martha will get over the Doctor and grow up, as Nathan did that exact thing.

[sizequeen.livejournal.com]

Nathan was deliberately put off by Stuart's sexual "failure," so I wonder is Martha will be disappointed as well.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think she's already starting to be -- I think him not caring all that much about her family being in danger has taken a bit of the shine off of him for her.

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

Oh, Martha = Nathan makes so much sense! I'd never thought of the Doctor/Stuart, Rose/Vince connections before either. Very nice work!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

And Martha makes so much more sense when I think of her as a Nathan sort -- the same things that bothered me in him are bothering me in her. Entitlement, thinking that they have the right to the person's affection, belittling the great friendship of the person they're lusting after. It all fits.

[coneyislandbaby]

And don't forget that Rose's lover in Titanic was named Jack, either - I still refuse, particularly with that scene from QAF and knowing that Russell worked with Kate, to believe that it was a complete and total coincidence that we have Jack and Rose in Who.

Except I don't want Martha to be Nathan, because I rewatched QAF to write a story for Yuletide last year and utterly loathed Nathan, even at the end. Considering the first time I watched it, I hated Stuart and loved Nathan, that was an interest turnaround (I liked Stuart much better the second time through but Vince will always be my favourite).

I also have a theory that Owen = Stuart only straight-ish.

And one more thing. No matter how much I like Aiden Gillen as Stuart, I will forever be disappointed that Christopher Eccleston did not play the part.

[coneyislandbaby]

Also, I'll be able to form an actual opinion about Martha soon as we are getting The Runaway Bride here tonight and the new series starts from Saturday night. Given the wide-ranging opinions of the fans, I'm most interested to see what she's actually like. I can say I liked the actress's appearance in Army Of Ghosts at least, as Adeola.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Let me know what you think! I really enjoyed her in her introductory episode, Smith and Jones. She only started to irritate me later on.

And I quite liked her as Adeola, as well.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

And don't forget that Rose's lover in Titanic was named Jack, either - I still refuse, particularly with that scene from QAF and knowing that Russell worked with Kate, to believe that it was a complete and total coincidence that we have Jack and Rose in Who.

Oh, yes. And both Jacks are 'American', too. Definitely not a coincidence. And Jack clearly still adores Rose.

Except I don't want Martha to be Nathan, because I rewatched QAF to write a story for Yuletide last year and utterly loathed Nathan, even at the end. Considering the first time I watched it, I hated Stuart and loved Nathan, that was an interest turnaround (I liked Stuart much better the second time through but Vince will always be my favourite).

Vince is total and complete love. Stuart is a character that gets better the more you watch him, I think, because he's very subtly done -- I didn't realize how much he needed and adored Vince until my second viewing of the series.

I also have a theory that Owen = Stuart only straight-ish.

Careless bastard who enjoys the hell out of sex? Hmm. I'll buy it. Stuart's hotter, though.

[coneyislandbaby]

There's actually several Jack and Rose combinations I know of, some platonic, some not (can't remember if you're into Lost or not but there's a Jack and a Rose there too, and there's a movie called The Ballad Of Jack And Rose).

Still not a coincidence.

And speaking of Titanic and Vince... Craig Kelly was also in Titanic. I love convergences like this.

Oddly I don't find Stuart to be that hot. Got lots of character love, no hot love. So to speak.

Then again, the amount of hot I find Owen is probably very out of proportion. I want to be his Vince. Or at least give him his Vince.

[sizequeen.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree that owen was supposed</i< to be a Stuart-type, but the actor brought out all the loathsome layers of that kind of Lothario character and none of the joy or charm that Aiden Gillen brought to the role.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Like, Stuart through the eyes of someone that isn't madly attracted to him (like Donna, who was all "he's so old" and "Nathan, you can do better").

He's a Stuart who isn't enjoying himself as much. Plus, he doesn't have a Vince. A Stuart without a Vince is so lost. The Vince is what makes everything fun.

[laughingduchess.livejournal.com]

And one more thing. No matter how much I like Aiden Gillen as Stuart, I will forever be disappointed that Christopher Eccleston did not play the part.

omg!!!! I have never heard this!! That would have been amazing-did he turn it down? What happened?

Also, hello!

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

There are so many devoted couples in S3, it's as if the Doctor is having the whole loneliness thing rubbed in his face. The Brannigans in "Gridlock", Tallulah and Lazlo, Lazarus and Lady Thaw, the Captain and her hubby in "42", John Smith and Joan (in some ways the cruellest of all, because the most attainable), Sally and Lawrence in "Blink", and of course, the final irony of Saxon and Lucy.

I haven't seen any of RTD earlier work, and I find myself wondering if someone who clearly believes in the redeeming power of love could be so cruel.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

There are so many devoted couples in S3, it's as if the Doctor is having the whole loneliness thing rubbed in his face.

It really does feel that way sometimes!

The Brannigans in "Gridlock", Tallulah and Lazlo, Lazarus and Lady Thaw, the Captain and her hubby in "42", John Smith and Joan (in some ways the cruellest of all, because the most attainable), Sally and Lawrence in "Blink", and of course, the final irony of Saxon and Lucy.

And even more when you just lay it all out like that.

I haven't seen any of RTD earlier work, and I find myself wondering if someone who clearly believes in the redeeming power of love could be so cruel.

He hasn't shown previous evidence in that direction. QaFUK ended with Stuart and Vince heading off to America together, for many adventures. It was a very happy ending.

[lily-268.livejournal.com]

I've never watched Queer as Folk and I wish I had, I'm loving these similarities. Didn't RTD write for QAF as well?

Comparing Rose (DW) to Rose (Titanic) is a neat little leap. Both were bored and listless in their life, RoseDW had excitement brought to her, but RoseTitanic sought it out by trying to jump off the railing. But even before they meet the source of their adventure, they cared about people. RoseDW is constantly nurturing people, even after they've wronged her (Elton) and she's aware of how she helps the Doctor (Fear Her). RoseTitanic dances with the lower classes below deck without making them feel out of place or that she is looking down on them, later she tries to save a little girl who is lost in the water.

They already had the ingredients to become extrodinary women, and the Doctor and Jack acted as catalysts, while at the same time benefitting from the relationship. You could argue that a Time Lord and a British Lady were not equal to a teenage shop girl and a starving artist, but their titles don't matter, because their relationships were completely reciprocal.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I've never watched Queer as Folk and I wish I had, I'm loving these similarities. Didn't RTD write for QAF as well?

Creator, head writer, and driving force. QaF was his baby -- he wrote it because he'd written on a soap and hated the way he was forced to write out all the emotion in the dialogue. He made QaF in part so that he could write people the way they actually spoke, to write a love story where neither character actually comes out says it and where it's never consummated (on-screen) but is definitely reciprocal.

I would definitely recommend it. It's brilliant television and only ten episodes long, so it doesn't take up too much time to watch it.

Comparing Rose (DW) to Rose (Titanic) is a neat little leap. Both were bored and listless in their life, RoseDW had excitement brought to her, but RoseTitanic sought it out by trying to jump off the railing. But even before they meet the source of their adventure, they cared about people. RoseDW is constantly nurturing people, even after they've wronged her (Elton) and she's aware of how she helps the Doctor (Fear Her). RoseTitanic dances with the lower classes below deck without making them feel out of place or that she is looking down on them, later she tries to save a little girl who is lost in the water.

They really do have quite a bit in common for women in which the superficial elements of their lives are nothing alike at all -- they're strong, compassionate, curious women trapped in lives where they can't use those traits to their best advantage. It's quite an interesting (if depressing) statement about society, that women of both upper and lower classes are actually both very constrained by their position in life.

They already had the ingredients to become extrodinary women, and the Doctor and Jack acted as catalysts, while at the same time benefitting from the relationship. You could argue that a Time Lord and a British Lady were not equal to a teenage shop girl and a starving artist, but their titles don't matter, because their relationships were completely reciprocal.

Exactly!

[gene-lee.livejournal.com]

I'm going to politely disagree with this. QAF-UK is near and dear to me, and as much as I love Vince, Russel had an entirely different mindframe and concept when he developed Vince and Stuart, one that doesn't have the direct application on the Doctor that you're trying to make.

I'll agree that there are some commonologies that Vince/Rose share in personality and character premise, but its not an even comparison to equate the good that Rose did for Nine to the larger impact that Vince had on Stuart's life, as they were friends for over 17 years and he had a hand in Stuart's pychological development from his early teens. That plays a heavy role as to why their lives are so entwined [postively and negatively] and how they get in the way of each other.

This doesn't negate what Rose has done, but to make the statement that Rose is essential to the Doctor's happiness and that Martha [or anyone new for that matter] should just accept it, as if they are in 'the middle of that relationship' is a not a good concept to foist on a show that can no longer utilize the past character in any active means. Because that makes Rose an anchor and you would have to empathize with why people would not respond to that.

It kind of also contradicts what WHO is: that life and love, and sometimes well-being, is transitionary as is time. Its how you remember it. Titanic reflects that as well.

As for Nathan=Martha, if feels like the comparison is made just to complete the threesome. I understand wanting to make the connection of their attraction to their subjects, but its superficial. Martha's enjoying the ride [and sometimes not], but she has an independant life and career and does not look at the Doctor like he is a svengali role-model as Nathan [who was 15] did.

To make Martha's anger in SoD about Nathan's story-arc in QAF doesn't really connect with me. Her response is both reactionary, harsh, and yet, partially rooted in the rationale that Ten frequently refused to provide answers when she asked for them or when it could've been helpful. To me, Russel has been very heavy-handed with that theme all season. Its an overt element that's meant to play a negative hand in their dynamic come finale time. There's a kernal of resentment and doubt this new companion feels [the Doctor witholding information, the comparison to the past companion, the abandonment of Jack, and now the danger her family is in] that makes the finale tense as to how you think it may end. Its Russel's brand of suspense that he brings to WHO that's not meant to be all about Rose nor a reflection of his inspriration for QAF.

This is just my thoughts on it, feel free to delete if I've offended.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I'm going to politely disagree with this. QAF-UK is near and dear to me, and as much as I love Vince, Russel had an entirely different mindframe and concept when he developed Vince and Stuart, one that doesn't have the direct application on the Doctor that you're trying to make.

I've certainly no issue with people not reading the same things into source and making the same connections that I do. While I agree that Russell has changed a bit since he created QaFUK, the reasons that I find Doctor/Rose so resonant are very similiar to the reasons that I love Vince/Stuart so much. Direct application in the sense that I believe it can be used to predict anything, no. Direct application in that the characters feel like they were painted by the same hand, yes.

I'll agree that there are some commonologies that Vince/Rose share in personality and character premise, but its not an even comparison to equate the good that Rose did for Nine to the larger impact that Vince had on Stuart's life, as they were friends for over 17 years and he had a hand in Stuart's pychological development from his early teens. That plays a heavy role as to why their lives are so entwined [postively and negatively] and how they get in the way of each other.

I do agree that Vince and Stuart shaped each other's personalities more, in the course of growing up together, but I can't agree with the premise that Rose's impact on the Doctor's life must be lesser due to his advanced years and their shorter span of time together.

Because that makes Rose an anchor and you would have to empathize with why people would not respond to that.

I don't understand why my viewing of Rose as an anchor for the Doctor should have any effect on other people's viewing at all. Either they are already inclined to agree and thus do or they are already inclined to disagree and thus don't. My personal opinion of the relationship is just that -- personal and an opinion.

It kind of also contradicts what WHO is: that life and love, and sometimes well-being, is transitionary as is time. Its how you remember it. Titanic reflects that as well.

Everything is transitory. QaF talks about that, too -- Alfred is the ticking clock of time in the background of Stuart's life, reminding him that he's getting older.

As for Nathan=Martha, if feels like the comparison is made just to complete the threesome.

Considering it was mentioned because of something character-based and not at all relationship-based, I'm rather baffled at how you came to that conclusion. The Nathan=Martha thing leapt out to me because her behavior reminded me of his. After that, I saw more points of comparison between the two, but it was the lack of personal responsibility in time of stress (and blaming something that was partially her fault on someone else) that made me think of it to begin with.