butterfly: (No happy endings - Darla)
[personal profile] butterfly
I keep thinking about what Angel said about Darla - "She never had a chance." Did she? She was a working girl in the New World, dying of syphilis. Not a life brimming with opportunity. Then she was a vampire, soulless. Just a monster. Taught by the Master.

And she was still a romantic. A vampire who'd once been a whore, who dreamed of a man to spend all of eternity with. "It's mythic." And a relationship where she had the power. She'd made Angel. And yet, in the end, he killed her. In the end, she couldn't keep him. Couldn't control him. "No one could keep up with you. Not even me."

We've known three vampires touched by souls, and all of them were unique even before that. All of them wanted something so desperately that they were willing to take a chance in embracing darkness, though none of them knew what they were getting into. Darla, who never minced words, who always longed for a view... always longed to live in a place where the surroundings were worth looking at. Spike, tired of being spit on and turned down, who longed for respect and for protection from his own frail heart. And Angel, who wanted to matter. Who wanted more than what he had and who thought that he deserved it.

Darla died an independant woman. William died in the care of his mother. Liam died under the rule of his father. Abandoned, smothered, spurned. All of them were miserable with their lives and all of them were looking for something - for life, for hope, for something bigger. And they found it.

Darla could be a powerful lady in silks and blood. Spike could kill anyone who laughed at him. And Angelus could have fun with no father to tell him no.

All three of our 'special' vampires were trapped by where they were in life, and becoming vampires allowed them to leave their situation.

But they couldn't escape who they were. Darla said it herself, "What we once were informs all that we have become."

So many important things happen in alleys on these shows. Both Spike and Angel were made in alleys. Darla died in one. Connor was born in one. An alley is a place of transformation in the Buffyverse - it's where Faith has her breakdown in 5x5. It makes sense - an alley is trapped between two buildings, mouth open to the street and all of it open to the sky. And it's a dirty place. Transformations rarely occur without pain and suffering and dirt. Buffy hits her lowest point in an alley - pummeling Spike in Dead Things.

Darla dies the first time in a shuttered room. The second in a dark club. The third in a hotel room. And the fourth in an alley. Only the fourth was of her agency. The others were done to her, but the alley transformation, she chose. In that moment, Darla finally had the power. And she used it for the right reason.

She earned her redeemption, I believe. In her first human life, she gave up on God and welcomed the devil. In her second, she embraced the notion that she was meant to die and that it wasn't such an evil thing. And then, as a souled vampire, she gave up her life for her son's. She died a mother the last time.

Beautiful!

Date: 2003-11-24 08:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] honorh.livejournal.com
I love your lines of thought here, butterfly. Unfortunately, it's very early in the morning and my thoughts haven't coalesced yet, so I can't say anything profound. Still, this is a wonderful insight into our three favorite souled vamps.

Re: Beautiful!

Date: 2003-11-24 03:46 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Thank you. And if you think of anything profound later, I'd love to hear it.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com
But what's redemeption, when you get right down to it?

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 09:44 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
In the Buffyverse, I expect it's when you've done something good enough to outweigh the evil that you've done. It can be a single act or it can be a journey. Depends on where the person is going. I consider Darla's death to be her redemption because we see her spirit speak to Connor in Inside Out. And the way that that was done makes me feel that it really was Darla and she really was on the side of good, which makes me think that her last act did earn her salvation - that her sacrifice and the reasons behind it were enough to wipe her slate clean.

Angel doesn't believe in redemption anymore, I don't think. He doesn't think that he can ever make up for the evil that he did. And he can't undo what he's done, but he can balance the scales. But no matter how many souls he saves, if he does it for the wrong reasons, he isn't helping his own soul. And hey, that's not a total loss, as he is helping people. But he's helping them in a way that continues to stain his already tarnished soul, because he already believes it to be beyond repair.

And thank you for your comments. It's always good to see other people's thoughts.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 09:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com
In the Buffyverse, I expect it's when you've done something good enough to outweigh the evil that you've done. It can be a single act or it can be a journey.

I'm not convinced by the Karmic Balance idea in RL, but yeah, it seems to be the Buffyverse way. I never really felt that Spike wanted to be redeemed, but he was pushed into that plot anyway. Ho hum...

that her sacrifice and the reasons behind it were enough to wipe her slate clean.

But since she cared about him so much, wanted him to live... is it altruistic? Is that sacrifice... err... *thinks* That is, she knows she won't love him when he's born and she loses the soul, so in a sense she knows that she's going to die anyway. So, how "good" is her suicide?

Angel doesn't believe in redemption anymore, I don't think. He doesn't think that he can ever make up for the evil that he did. And he can't undo what he's done, but he can balance the scales.

And I do love him for that. He's learned that the numbers are meaningless, and that the only "karmically sound" reason to be good is a simple "because I can be".

But no matter how many souls he saves, if he does it for the wrong reasons, he isn't helping his own soul. And hey, that's not a total loss, as he is helping people. But he's helping them in a way that continues to stain his already tarnished soul, because he already believes it to be beyond repair.

I reckon doing it despite beliving it won't do him any good is the way forward. It's less selfish now, really. He saves because he can, not because he expects to get something out of it.

And thank you for your comments. It's always good to see other people's thoughts.

I friended you - that OK?

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 10:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dlgood.livejournal.com
Pointed by HonorH.

But since she cared about him so much, wanted him to live... is it altruistic? Is that sacrifice...

IMHO, Darla's suicide is a sacrifice and a good deed. Because based upon her limited knowledge of the situation, she does what she can do to save her child, with no particular self-interest. There is the "legacy" aspect, but that's so abstract. She has no clear alternative, no direct benefit, and no particular desire to be dead. Whether, the one act is "enough" is a separate issue.

I reckon doing it despite beliving it won't do him any good is the way forward.

IMHO, Angel's post-Epiphany approach is simply to fight and save lives because he wants to alleviate the suffering of others. Which, essentially, is a very Buddhist approach. I think he has his eye on the cosmic scoreboard, but I don't really think he's looking or expecting for salvation.

In and of itself, I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. The problem, however, is that without Faith in some form of Redemption, his faith in fighting seems to waver. In otherwords, he knows that he should fight, knows why he should fight, but seems to have trouble keeping himself motivated enough to go out and actually do the fighting. Or to fight at full strength.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 10:14 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
That's it exactly. Angel needs faith for himself or his heart isn't in it. And that's never a good thing for anyone.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 10:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com
IMHO, Angel's post-Epiphany approach is simply to fight and save lives because he wants to alleviate the suffering of others. Which, essentially, is a very Buddhist approach. I think he has his eye on the cosmic scoreboard, but I don't really think he's looking or expecting for salvation.

Which is funky, I feel. Yes, he's getting the feel-good, but he isn't convinced he's saving his soul. It's a big leap forwards.

In and of itself, I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. The problem, however, is that without Faith in some form of Redemption, his faith in fighting seems to waver. In otherwords, he knows that he should fight, knows why he should fight, but seems to have trouble keeping himself motivated enough to go out and actually do the fighting. Or to fight at full strength.

Bless 'im, his life's just one big philosophical monkey-dropping.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 10:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dlgood.livejournal.com
Well yeah. In essence, if he truly believes that the primary point of fighting is to alleviate suffering, than this redemption stuff isn't even germane or relevant to his life. And it shouldn't matter at all that he may or may never balance out.

But... I think this is where there is a gap between what he wants to believe, what he thinks he should believe, and what he actually believes. And IMHO, despite this far more simple, sensible and noble Buddist approach he's striving for - he really does believe he's damned. And that dissonance is going to leave him exhausted, weary, and nowhere near as good at what he's trying to accomplish unless he can work through it.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 10:29 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Yes, that's the problem. He believes that he's going to hell. It's hard to fight and work and try, all with this voice in your head reminding you that "no matter how good a boy you are, God doesn't want you."

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 10:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dlgood.livejournal.com
Yeah. And whether it's an accurate judgement for him to make about himself, IMHO it's a recurring conflict that stems as far back to his youth in Ireland. Lack of faith in himself, and in a higher purpose to guide himself by, is IMHO largely why he wound up drunk in that alleyway to be turned by Darla, and why he keeps stumbling into metaphorical ditches now. My personal hope is that if there really is a Shanshu or redemption out there for him, overcoming this pathology is the key.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-24 11:02 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Definitely. Angel needs to find faith in himself if he hopes to find a source of strength that will last.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-25 11:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com
He doesn't belive he's going to hell, more that there's not a magic point at which you're redeemed. He's just stopped thinking in Buffy terms. (I bet Spike has a wee chart with numbers on it of how much good stuff he needs to do to be redeemed and get that toaster oven.)

Angel's already redeemed, really, in as far as it means anything.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-25 04:04 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Well, if you believe his own words, he does believe that he's going to hell. He's very Catholic, whether or not he was raised that way (I suspect he was - Liam? Ireland? In that time period? So Catholic - Irish Catholic, which is pretty Catholic.).

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-25 04:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com
Yo, which is why Spike isn't as redemtion-driven, being a (presumably) Protestant, where redemption/salvation is by faith alone.

(no subject)

Date: 2003-11-25 04:27 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Yeah. Spike of the one who said, "And all will forgive and love. And he will be loved." Angel is the one who believes he has to earn his redemption (and thus he's hopeless because he believes that task to be an impossible one), while Spike just believes that the change itself is enough.

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