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butterflyThere are things about the Stefan/Elena relationship (especially regarding Stefan), that I don't really get (I mean... I have an understanding of the character that tracks with what I see on the show, but I don't see how to reconcile it with the apparent fannish perceptive of the relationship that I've run into), and I was hoping for perhaps some clarity from people on my flist.
The thing is, I like Stefan quite a bit. I've gone off the S/E relationship because it feels so wispy and thin to me, but I like both Stefan and Elena. I just don't understand the thing where their relationship is said to be about open communication. I haven't really seen that with them. I've seen Elena finding stuff out and then pushing Stefan to be honest (and Stefan did use the news of her adoption as a handy distraction when he had to confess his stalkerdom to her), but... not all that much open communication.
Is there something in the show that I'm missing? Because, to me, Stefan seems to have a pretty firm pattern of not sharing unless he absolutely has to share, especially if it's something that Elena would see as 'bad news' (or that he thinks Elena would see that way). I don't know. Maybe it's a fannish in-joke?
(this is not an 'in comparison with Damon/Elena' thing; this is an 'independent of all other factors, evaluating the S/E relationship on its own' thing)
The thing is, I like Stefan quite a bit. I've gone off the S/E relationship because it feels so wispy and thin to me, but I like both Stefan and Elena. I just don't understand the thing where their relationship is said to be about open communication. I haven't really seen that with them. I've seen Elena finding stuff out and then pushing Stefan to be honest (and Stefan did use the news of her adoption as a handy distraction when he had to confess his stalkerdom to her), but... not all that much open communication.
Is there something in the show that I'm missing? Because, to me, Stefan seems to have a pretty firm pattern of not sharing unless he absolutely has to share, especially if it's something that Elena would see as 'bad news' (or that he thinks Elena would see that way). I don't know. Maybe it's a fannish in-joke?
(this is not an 'in comparison with Damon/Elena' thing; this is an 'independent of all other factors, evaluating the S/E relationship on its own' thing)
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-08 07:28 pm (UTC)I think some of the contradiction lies in the personal prejudices of the viewer, in that some people get hung up on certain details while others pick other episodes to focus on. I would like to see a detailed rewatch analysis of positive vs negative S/E moments, but it would be challenging to be impartial.
There's also the question of what do you give Stefan a pass on? Is it reasonable that he lies to Elena about being a vampire when they first meet? Probably. Is it reasonable that he doesn't tell her about the stalking at first? Probably. But the grey area is all in when and where you draw the line.
Stefan is certainly better than a lot of other TV boyfriends and a lot of other vampire boyfriends that could be named, so he does deserve some credit. But how much credit and how much censure is something that people are going to decide for themselves and that determines your feelings about S/E, I think. There are similar issues for Damon, of couse. Some people are never going to feel sympathetic for Damon because of how he treated Caroline just like some people can't forgive Stefan for stalking Elena for months.
It would be interesting to explore, in a longer post, what brings someone to give either brother a pass or not for their misdeeds.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-08 08:18 pm (UTC)Exactly so, yes. Things that just slid by me on the first watch were noticed on the second.
I think some of the contradiction lies in the personal prejudices of the viewer, in that some people get hung up on certain details while others pick other episodes to focus on. I would like to see a detailed rewatch analysis of positive vs negative S/E moments, but it would be challenging to be impartial.
Yeah, that would almost need to be done by committee. Salvatore Brothers: Serious Business. Ha. But I would love that, too.
It would be interesting to explore, in a longer post, what brings someone to give either brother a pass or not for their misdeeds.
It really would. I think part of why I don't give Stefan as much of a pass as some certainly has to do with the fact that I have known both addicts and stalkers and it isn't cute. No, seriously. It isn't. (my mom's ex-boyfriend stalked her. My aunt died from a drug overdose. Both my parents are alcoholics, though functional ones. It's an area that I have some (bad) experience in)
But I haven't ever known anyone like Damon, so I probably relate to him on a much more... fictionally-based level.
Plus, I want Damon to evolve and grow as a person. I don't want him to stay a remorseless killer and user of people (I want Stefan to evolve and grow, too, so maybe what confuses me is that it feels like some/a lot of people don't think he needs to? Maybe).
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-08 08:50 pm (UTC)I think that's definitely part of my own feelings. I want Damon to evolve into a better person who sees others as real people. Or even people as being a worthwhile category, I guess. And the show is dealing with that in a very interesting and intelligent way. But Stefan's faults are often treated as nonexistent or not severe enough to even comment on. And that is troublesome. The show seems to be saying sometimes that Stefan is the ideal boyfriend, when he clearly isn't although, as I said, he is much better than many. Which doesn't mean I am against the S/E relationship. I'm really not at all. But I want to see that relationship grow and change into something better, as good real relationships do over time, and it doesn't seem to be happening all that much.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-08 09:19 pm (UTC)Yeah, I love the way that the show is handling Damon's character arc (and I have to give the side-eye to people who think that Damon should just be petted and accepted for who he chooses to be right now - he kills people! On impulse! Because he feels too many feelings! This is not an acceptable way to behave in society!). It feels like the show is taking it slow and they're really thinking about it and they're not making it cheap or easy.
But Stefan's faults are often treated as nonexistent or not severe enough to even comment on. And that is troublesome. The show seems to be saying sometimes that Stefan is the ideal boyfriend, when he clearly isn't although, as I said, he is much better than many. Which doesn't mean I am against the S/E relationship. I'm really not at all. But I want to see that relationship grow and change into something better, as good real relationships do over time, and it doesn't seem to be happening all that much.
Yeah, one of the things that I've been waiting for is for the S/E relationship to either 'grow up' or end. Either way would work for me, story-wise.
This is why I kinda smacked my head against the wall (but not literally) that the preview makes it seem like they're playing the same kind of game of pretend that they like to lapse into and that seems highly stupid considering what danger they're in (relationships that make characters that I like stupid are relationships that I get less and less fond of). So. I hope that it isn't as fool-hardy as it seems to be from the preview.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-08 08:07 pm (UTC)I think he's ultimately most honest with Elena, of all the characters on the show. But that doesn't mean that I consider him to have open communication with ANYONE. Poor Elena has to pry the information about what really happened in 1864 from Stefan's cold, dead hands. (and still never gets the whole story without Damon's help!) He hides that she was adopted from her, the truth about Damon & her mother from her... (right, trying to 'get all the information first' *cough* my ass) He doesn't ask how she feels about bringing Daddy John home with him. He tries to hide the inhuman side of him from her. I think he's explained more about what it means to be a vampire to Caroline than he has to Elena. The heightened emotions, the desire to hunt and feed... These are not things he talks about easily with Elena. And she knows almost nothing about his life before he came to Mystic Falls.
god, and emotionally? He is soooo fucked up! I don't think he's honest at all about his lingering Katherine issues (hell, THE PICTURE HE WAS STILL GAZING AT IN EARLY S1) and he's always such a lying liar who lies about his attachment to Damon (though he's gotten better about that). He likely has all these ~feelings about Damon being in love with Elena and Elena's connection with Damon, but he'll never fucking verbalize them.
And dude, I LOVE IT. I love that he has major share-issues and lies to himself about what's on inside his head only half as much as he lies to everyone else. It's what makes him more than just another emo vampire to me. Without this character trait (and his willingness to get rough when the shit goes down), Stefan would put me to sleep.
I think part of the grey area is a lack of definition of terms. The trick is, you have to define "open communication" and exactly what that entails. And then judge Stefan's behavior against it. People who actually view expected communication level from their partners differently are going to have a different POV on the question. To have an effective conversation about it, though, people either need to (a) agree to 1 definition or (b) supply their personal definition along with their argument that S/E has it.
(this is not an 'in comparison with Damon/Elena' thing; this is an 'independent of all other factors, evaluating the S/E relationship on its own' thing)
Absolutely! It's important to separate other judgments about the relationship from this classification -- whether or not they have a relationship people enjoy watching, one that makes Elena happy, one is more fulfilling than what she experienced with Matt, etc. does not affect the question of whether or not these characters can be said to experience "open communication".
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-08 08:32 pm (UTC)Exactly. Stefan's generally closed-mouth nature is something that I find interesting about him as a character. So, when I run into this other interpretation for the S/E relationship, I'm left going... "but, what? He's more interesting the way that I see him on screen!" Perfect boyfriends might be good in real life (though, would they? Wouldn't you just always feel not good enough?) but they would be boring as hell on TV, so I'm glad that Stefan... isn't one.
I think he's ultimately most honest with Elena, of all the characters on the show.
Well, all the characters on the show that are still alive. He actually did seem to be honest and open with Lexi, at least by Stefan-standards. I think that's one of the reasons that I liked her so much. Though, ha, he didn't tell her that Elena looked like Katherine.
I think he's explained more about what it means to be a vampire to Caroline than he has to Elena. The heightened emotions, the desire to hunt and feed... These are not things he talks about easily with Elena.
Yeah, his ease with Caroline in talking about things like that is probably why I'm semi-shipping them (she's supposed to be the new Lexi; whatever. I'll ship what I want to ship).
god, and emotionally? He is soooo fucked up! I don't think he's honest at all about his lingering Katherine issues (hell, THE PICTURE HE WAS STILL GAZING AT IN EARLY S1)
Thank you, yes! Stefan pretends that his Katherine issues don't exist and he's never dealt with them. It's called 'repression', Stefan, and it doesn't actually make the bad feelings go away.
Without this character trait (and his willingness to get rough when the shit goes down), Stefan would put me to sleep.
Those two things (and his FIERCE attachment to Damon) are my favorite things about Stefan, for sure.
People who actually view expected communication level from their partners differently are going to have a different POV on the question. To have an effective conversation about it, though, people either need to (a) agree to 1 definition or (b) supply their personal definition along with their argument that S/E has it.
So true. Terms need to be defined! But it's funny - when I was rewatching "Under Control", I remember how startled I was when Damon was freely sharing information with Elena that she'd never tried to ask for. Because Stefan is so closed-mouth, frequently even about useful information. I was, like... "oh, right. Damon shares his information with his allies."
It's important to separate other judgments about the relationship from this classification -- whether or not they have a relationship people enjoy watching, one that makes Elena happy, one is more fulfilling than what she experienced with Matt, etc. does not affect the question of whether or not these characters can be said to experience "open communication".
Exactly.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-08 08:41 pm (UTC)oh god, I am so easy there. The brothers could go kill a bus of charity workers together... as long as they hugged at the end and promised to never betray each others' trust again! And maybe a tear or two, if a passenger had kittens. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-08 09:21 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-09 03:47 am (UTC)*g*
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-08 11:57 pm (UTC)Stefan is quite happy not to share if he's not forced to, and that denial may come off in his mind as being 'protective' but it's dangerous in the long run and ultimately isn't a healthy thing for the person you're dating. Would I be thrilled to find out some of the stuff that Elena has dug to learn? No. Would I be more pissed if I got bitten as a result of an ommision. HELL. YES.
Tell your significant other stuff, even if it's ugly.
One example that stands out to me is where Stefan is detoxing and he tells Elena a 'version' of events and you see Damon react on the spot to the way in which they report history. Damon will tell the truth even (or because) it may horrify people or chase them away - it's a test, can you stand me, all of me, as I am?
Stefan is more of the 'what you don't know won't hurt you, even if it has sharp pointy teeth.'
And I am not saying that Stefan and Elena aren't cute together or that they don't work, it's just that in the long run I don't see that a lack of disclosure can lead anywhere good. That is an issue they would have to seriously address.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-09 01:55 am (UTC)Yeah. If they would deal with this issue (ON SCREEN), then I would feel probably 10x better about the Stefan/Elena relationship.
(no subject)
Date: 2011-02-09 02:25 am (UTC)