Doctor Who: On Conversations (spoilers for Journey's End)

[butterfly]

Everyone who was wondering exactly what Ten II was doing while Ten I was saying goodbye to everyone (note: as suggested by mrv3000 and following in the tradition of Romana, I've decided to use Ten I and Ten II when speaking about the post-regeneration split Doctors):

Ten II was chatting up Rose.

(edit: after this, the camera keeps panning over and we come to Mickey and Jackie's goodbye conversation)

My current theory is that Ten II was fully expecting to be dumped off in the parallel universe but he wasn't expecting Rose to stay there with him. Even if he was expecting his other self to try to drop her off, he's fully aware of what a complete sucker he is for Rose Tyler. Given enough time, Rose can talk him into anything. So, Ten I made sure that they didn't have enough time (and, even then, it was close).

So, there they are, on that beach, and Ten II understands what Ten I is doing but he doesn't understand why Ten I doesn't crumple instantly under the determined gaze of one Rose Tyler, when he's let her have her way far too many times to count. And that's because Ten II wasn't there for Davros' monumental "you turn everyone you love into a weapon and you totally suck, dude" speech. Though those are feelings that he's felt, they haven't been as recently reinforced as Ten I's. I don't think that Ten II was expecting Ten I's particular justification for leaving him in the parallel world, because he takes offense at the notion that he should be left behind because of what he did on the Crucible, but he doesn't seem at all surprised at the being left behind itself (I think he assumed that Ten I would just go with "can't have two Doctors in the same universe").

Anyway, he's totally expecting that Rose will talk Ten I into taking her with him and that he's going to have to deal with losing her again, so he's taking advantage of his brief window when Ten I is dealing with Sarah Jane, Martha, and Mickey, and stealing a few last moments with Rose (look at that laugh! Rose's body language is more guarded, which reflects the way she behaves on the beach, but... aw! Look at him and then try to tell me that that's not the Doctor on a Rose-high).

So, yes, to continue. He sees that Ten I is, basically, being a great big coward and trying to pretend that he's doing what's best for Rose. And Ten II is hoping, desperately hoping that it's going to work. Because... because that's Rose. If Ten I is stupid enough or scared enough to let her go, if this might actually happen, Ten II doesn't want to do anything to risk that.

He especially doesn't want to risk saying something inappropriately Donna, like 'wizard', and making Rose think that he might not really be the same as 'the Doctor' after all. When Donna prompts him to talk, he takes a moment to breathe first. He seems to 'relax' into his own voice when he says "specifically, the aging part" and I think he trusts his voice from that point forward.

Then Rose chases after Ten I and Rose throws down her gauntlet, which serves two purposes. One, it shows her how determined Ten I is not to have her come with him, and, two, it shows her that Ten II both knows how that sentence should end and that he will be with her, in every way that counts. When Rose asks Ten I, "How was that sentence going to end?" and he says, "Does it need saying?" he's telling her that the only time he'll ever tell her he loves her is if he's saying goodbye at the same time. So, she turns to Ten II, calls him 'Doctor' and asks him.

And the man that she loves, that she adores, finally finishes telling her what he started to say on that beach long ago and he pulls back and she looks at him and it is the Doctor. And he loves her. How she have kept from kissing him?

Of course, Ten I takes advantage of that moment to slip away, because it hurts (why do Cybermen have their emotions removed?) to see her kissing someone else, even if it is him.

So, the man that she loves is both gone (forever) and standing next to her holding her hand. She's not going to be feeling simple joy. But when Ten II takes her hand, she immediately, instinctively wraps her fingers around his. And they have a new beginning. It won't always be easy (they both have abandonment issues), but there will always be love.

The other question that I've noticed around is why RTD chose to have Ten II spend most of his time with Donna while Ten I spent most of his with Rose. Two reasons, I think -- the first is simple plot needs. The Doctor that could spend a life with Rose could only be the one with the human heart but he had to be with Donna because she created him and that was necessary for Donna's plot.

The other is far less plot-related and more along the lines of giving one good thing to Ten I.

He got to spend one last adventure with the love of his life. The woman that he never thought he would see again. He got to hug her and smile at her and she held his hand when he needed it most. Whatever else happens, he had this one last day with her and forever knows that, somewhere out there, she's happy.

Comments

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Is this picture from the episode or from the confidential?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

That's from the episode, just before we see the Mickey & Jackie goodbye conversation. It's very short and we can't hear what's going on, but it looks adorable.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

You make far too much sense. :-)

"you turn everyone you love into a weapon and you totally suck, dude"

*snort* I'd be interested if Rose tells Ten II about that incident, and what his reaction to it would be. Of course, the way Rose would tell it would probably include how stupid she thought it was, so it likely wouldn't affect Ten II nearly as badly as it did Ten I. Because that's my explanation for why no one spoke up in Ten I's defense when Davros was blathering on; they all thought it was just so ridiculous, and of course Ten I wouldn't actually believe him, right? *sigh* *pets Ten I*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

That's what I'd be thinking, too. Because insane bad guys are always saying stupid things like that and the Doctor always dismisses them. There was no way for our companions to realize that he was being a big dumbass and taking it all to heart.

[nic]

Reading this made me cry all over again, but in a more hopeful way this time. Thank you SO MUCH for pointing out that Rose and Ten II interacted before they were dumped on the beach together. That's been one of my biggest problems with it - I wanted to see them flirting earlier. I wanted to see her recognition that hey, this guy is the Doctor TOO.

The picture you posted helps, somewhat. :)

Whatever else happens, he had this one last day

And I think from the moment he saw Doctor II, he KNEW. When I can finally bring myself to re-watch, I think awareness of that will hurt even more.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Reading this made me cry all over again, but in a more hopeful way this time. Thank you SO MUCH for pointing out that Rose and Ten II interacted before they were dumped on the beach together. That's been one of my biggest problems with it - I wanted to see them flirting earlier. I wanted to see her recognition that hey, this guy is the Doctor TOO.

That's why I really do appreciate that she calls him 'Doctor' on the beach.

The picture you posted helps, somewhat.

They're so cute!

And I think from the moment he saw Doctor II, he KNEW. When I can finally bring myself to re-watch, I think awareness of that will hurt even more.

I think you're right. He'd already made his (stupid, if in-character) decision and he was letting Ten II take those moments with Rose as much as Ten II was taking them.

[ivydoor.livejournal.com]

That does make a lot of sense.

Something else a bit random that I noticed last night while making icons: When Ten I was watching the TARDIS be "destroyed" Rose walks over to him and hold his hand. When the TARDIS leaves Rose behind, Ten II mirrors the behaviour and crosses the distance between them to hold her hand. While it's never made entirely clear where his memories start, the regeneration or his actual creation, I'd like to think that moment Rose took Ten I's hand is the last memory Ten II has before the split.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I'm not sure. We know that Time Lords are telepathic, so it's possible.

[kb91.livejournal.com]

I noticed that parallel, too, but I didn't see it as a shared memory as much as a shared commitment to each other. Just as Rose couldn't let Ten I suffer alone, Ten II couldn't let Rose suffer alone. In fact, I think the fact that Ten II didn't know how Rose had taken Ten I's hand makes it all the more powerful. This is them, no matter the regeneration, and they will always be there for each other.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

This is them, no matter the regeneration, and they will always be there for each other.

Yes. Also, aww. They are so sweet.

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

YES YES YES to this post. I absolutely love everything you said here.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I love this pairing so much!

[voldything.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to say I treasure all your finale posts so much, I'm so lucky to have you on my flist!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thank you. That's so sweet.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Oh, this is just brilliant. I feel the same way you do, but how you broke it down is just wonderful. Seriously.

I so want to friend you and read your other finale posts.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much! I believe that I shall friend you in return.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Cool, if you have time for reading, I have written quite a few lengthy Who posts in my dip into the fandom in the last month or so.

BTW: LOVE your icon!!!!

[hypocampothetic.livejournal.com]

Thank you for pointing this out. It's taken me a few days of thinking it through to realize that I really did love JE, and these little details help immensely. I've been stalking you for your Who posts--mind if I friend you?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

You're welcome!

I find myself liking "Journey's End" more and more as time passes, as well (and I liked it to begin with). I'm so glad I could help you process the episode.

I've been stalking you for your Who posts--mind if I friend you?

I'm always thrilled to be friended!

[stella-auri.livejournal.com]

Hi! Here from the_spdn! I love your post--it really makes sense and is awesome. I just rewatched the episode today and caught that scene in your post and was very happy to see that 10.5/Ten II did get some one-on-one time while Ten was saying the goodbyes. (Speaking of goodbyes, I was watching Legopolis today, and in one episode, the fourth doctor leaves his companions behind hurriedly, saying over his shoulder without looking back: "I hate saying goodbyes."

After watching the Confidential, and hearing how they didn't have the budget/time to film every scene with DT as both Doctors (they had that double), it helps me realize why there weren't more scenes of interaction between 10.5/Ten II and Rose. (We do get that shot of Rose smiling up at unseen 10.5 as she reaches towards the button Ten tells her to hold while piloting the Tardis). I think, if they had the budget, we could've gotten more glances and interactions between 10.5/Ten II and Rose. Or at least, that's my guess.

The more I rewatch JE, the more I like it. And posts like yours really help as well. :)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hello there!

I love your post--it really makes sense and is awesome. I just rewatched the episode today and caught that scene in your post and was very happy to see that 10.5/Ten II did get some one-on-one time while Ten was saying the goodbyes.

Yeah. I was glad to see it as well. Plus, I'm very amused that both of the Doctors end up next to Rose during that section.

Speaking of goodbyes, I was watching Legopolis today, and in one episode, the fourth doctor leaves his companions behind hurriedly, saying over his shoulder without looking back: "I hate saying goodbyes."

He really does! What he does here also reminds me of the Third Doctor slipping out of Jo's party after she's decided to stay with her "he reminds me of a younger you" guy. He doesn't like to say goodbye if he can help it, especially when it hurts. That he did so in "Doomsday" speaks very highly of his feelings for Rose.

I think, if they had the budget, we could've gotten more glances and interactions between 10.5/Ten II and Rose. Or at least, that's my guess.

Yeah. Reality always steps in and nothing can be quite perfect. Sadly.

The more I rewatch JE, the more I like it. And posts like yours really help as well. :)

I'm so glad. Thank you!

[freeze883.livejournal.com]

It's weird, everytime I watch it I know it's the right ending, it's just when I think about it, it gets murky. Right now I'm in mush them back together phase much like I was when Farscape did it's "clone" story.

I don't think Ten I was being a coward though, I believe the Doctor when he said the other Doctor needed Rose more. Ten loves Rose but he doesn't need her like he used to, she made him better he can live without her, he simply doesn't want to. If he let her stay it would be better for him but not for her, she would have to give up her family, any chance of kids, putting her in danger every single day and never regretting it because they are in love.

Now that sounds great for him sure but he wants better for her, he is a solider, he can't escape that anymore than Jack or Martha or Jenny can but Rose can be better than that. Some people think Rose doesn't do much as she doesn't fight, even in JN she isn't one of the companions with a plan other than finding the Doctor. What Rose does and always did was to look after people, even in Turn Left Rose prepared Donna for what was going to happen, never forcing her to do anything but giving her the information to make her choice in the end.

And of course while Rose is starting to tell the Doctor that she won't leave him he has Donna right next to him actually dying because she like Rose choice to never leave him, that has got to affect his state of mind.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think that the Doctor would say all of that, it would all be true, and it also all ultimately be a justification for the fact that he can't handle the idea of watching her die in front of him. We know that the issue in particular bothers him because that's what he focused in on in "School Reunion" -- that she could spend the rest of her life with him, but he couldn't return the favor. One day, she would be dead and he would be forced to keep going (and we know from "Turn Left" how tempted he would be not to bother).

[thatlibrarylady.livejournal.com]

You did a beautiful job of explaining this part of the episode. I've come to terms with how Rose's story ended. It's the closest thing to happily ever after that RTD could give her and still have a lonely Doctor to kick around on the show ;)Thanks for finding that Rose/Ten II screencap.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

You're welcome!

It's the closest thing to happily ever after that RTD could give her and still have a lonely Doctor to kick around on the show

It really is. And it shows how incredibly devoted RTD is to the Doctor/Rose story -- by sealing them off in the parallel world, he doesn't have to ever show Rose dying and the Doctor losing her (and that's a comfort for Ten I as well, because his big trauma was the thought of Rose dying in front of him and knowing that he would have to continue on -- now he never has to deal with that).