![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
butterflyIf The Idiot's Lantern showed us a Rose that was starting to look and sound more and more like the Doctor, these two episodes show a Rose fully capable of filling the Doctor's role.
After the Doctor falls down into the pit, Rose takes charge of the group, much in the same way the Doctor always does. She finds out what people are good at, sets them to thinking, and organizes the action. She and the Doctor are treated completely as equals -- at the end, the question of "who are you" is not posed to the Doctor alone, but to the two of them. The 'mysterious couple' (and note how Rose doesn't protest when Danny says that).
This is likely the Rose that the Torchwood in Pete's World is dealing with. Determined, inspiring, and very much in love with someone who is out of reach.
Once the Doctor and Rose have been cut off from each other, she's determined to find a way to him. Once he's believed to be completely lost, she refuses to give up on him (remembering Christmas and how he didn't die, how he was so disappointed that she gave up on him there).
I mostly focus on the Doctor's speech when I talk about this episode -- it's so grand and romantic, setting Rose up as more than his equal. When he looks at her, he always sees the ghost of what she was willing to do for him, swallowing time and space to save him.
Rose's words, though, are equally heart-breakingly wonderful.
"You don't know him. 'Cause he's not... I'm telling you, he's-- he's not... and even if he was, how could I leave him? All on his own, all the way down there? No. I'm gonna stay."
Even if he is dead, how can she leave him, Rose asks.
And this episode shows us what we already know -- separated from the Doctor, Rose will always be desperate to get back to him (but not to the point of hurting someone else). I don't doubt that she's currently living a fantastic life. I also don't doubt that if she heard the sound of the TARDIS, her reaction would mirror Jack's in End of Days -- hope and happiness.
Also, in this episode, they flat-out tell us that the Doctor inspires near-instant and inexplicable trust in people. He's just that sort of guy, always has been. People fall for the Doctor and trust in him very soon after meeting him (I didn't object to Martha's words in Gridlock because that's everyone's reaction to meeting the Doctor. He's just kinda a trust-worthy bloke, despite being ten kinds of dangerous).
I am... much fonder of Love and Monsters than most people seem to be. I love what it says about life, love, and the Doctor. I love what it does for Jackie's characterization ("I will never let her down. And I’ll protect them both until the end of my life.").
Also, I just have a lot of fun watching this episode. I like the members of LINDA and find them all very endearing.
So, in almost all of the first and second season episodes, we have characters that are identified with Rose or that she directly identifies with, and I think that that may be what I'm missing most with Martha. That's what made me connect so quickly with Rose -- the interpersonal relationships were set up so well and she went out there and connected with people so easily. We learn so much about Rose in all of those relationships, where I still don't feel as though I know all that much about Martha.
Rose -- Rose's relationships with Mickey and Jackie are quickly delineated and will be expanded upon throughout her entire run. Her childish and prankish romance with Mickey informs us as to her starting place in her emotional journey -- Rose is still a child in many ways and she takes Mickey so for granted that she doesn't notice when he's been replaced by living plastic. But when she's realized that he could be dead, her sorrow is deep and real and she thinks of the consequences -- people (his family) will need to know that he's dead.
Her relationship with her mother shows many of the same traits -- she makes sure that her mum's all right at the end of Rose, but cuts off the connection before anything else is said. Safety assured on both sides, that's all she needs to know for the moment.
And the Doctor... Rose shows so much determination in trying to figure out what's happening. And I found it very interesting that, even before she really knows him, she's protecting him. She doesn't say a word about having spoken with a man who told her that he was going to blow up the building. She tells (faux)Mickey that she gets the feeling that the Doctor's dangerous. This ends up being both true and irrelevant. The Doctor goes headlong into dangerous situations, but, as Rose finds out in this episode, those are the moments that can make you feel the most alive. Her smile as they leave the Nestene lair is a precursor of just how like the Doctor she's going to become.
Other things we learn: Rose got the bronze in gymnastics. *grins* She dated a bloke named Jimmy Stone -- he's the reason she dropped out of school and never got her A-levels. It ended badly. We know that she isn't the sort to muck about looking for compensation for her job blowing up, we know that she doesn't want to work at the butcher's. We know that her mum thinks that she has 'airs and graces' and we know that she wants a better life than she's got. Mostly all basic introductory character stuff, but Rose is so intensely dense with it. We know where she is in life, we know who the most important people in her life are, we know why she isn't happy and why she's willing to go with the Doctor in the end.
Mickey and Jackie are also launched on their own character journeys here, as they encounter aliens for the first time. Jackie freezes, terrified that she's going to be killed. When the attack is over, her first thought is of warning Rose. Mickey wants to run away, calls all things alien bad, whether or not that alien's hurt him.
The End of the World -- Rose connects momentarily to Raffalo, tries and fails to connect with Cassandra, and then, in the real connection of the episode, the Doctor tells her about his planet. He takes her to the end of the Earth so that she can understand him. In some ways, there's a test in this (as there is in The Unquiet Dead), because if Rose can't handle this, then she can't handle him. But it appears to be an unconscious testing.
Other important things we learn in this episode -- Rose is the sort of person who, when given a time machine, will pick forwards first. Again, this is something we don't know about Martha, one way or the other (I was thrilled when we found that she'd 'always wanted' to see New York. Something new, something that hadn't been established in her introduction. It was thrilling.). Rose is the sort of person who, when she is billions of years in the future, still wants to be able to call her mom to let her know she's all right. We learn that she's remembered enough from school to know about continental drift and how long it takes for the sun to expand.
She experiences culture shock from seeing all of the 'alien' aliens, and goes off in a room to think about it all. And then she encounters Raffalo, and finds out that aliens aren't always so alien after all. She's relieved to find out that there are still plumbers in the future, surprised (as she always is) when she hits up against some rule of society keeping people down (in this case, the rule against Raffalo not speaking unless given permission).
When she and the Doctor argue, she brings up another name from her life before -- her best mate Shireen. "Never argue with the designated driver."
We learn that Rose isn't a fan of massive amounts of plastic surgery ("You're just lipstick and skin, Cassandra. Everything human got chucked in the bin.). She learns that it's much more than humanity that makes a person -- Raffalo is a sympathetic person, while Cassandra is willing to kill without hesitation, all for money. And yet, after everything, she still has compassion for Cassandra and asks the Doctor to help her.
The Unquiet Dead -- Rose connects in a big way with Gwyneth. Gwyneth -- serving girl who saved the world, echoes Rose's ultimate journey in a big way.
This is also the episode where the Doctor gives him second big challenge to Rose (the first was -- 'aliens and terrifying things, can you handle it?'). "It's a different morality. Get used to it or go home." Even though the Doctor is horribly wrong about the Gelth, Rose still understands the basic point of his lesson, a continuation of what she's started learning in End of the World -- just because something's human, doesn't mean that it's better.
Aliens in London -- Rose goes home, and we learn so much about her. And Harriet Jones is a mirror for her in these two episodes -- she has a relatively unimportant job, but she's determined and clever. She finds things out, confronts aliens, and discovers how much there is in the world.
Anyway, I'm stopping here because that's where we are with Martha. We're at the beginning of her first two-parter. And I still don't feel like I know her all that well. Seriously, I knew Rose so well at this point. Her feelings for her family, her yearning for more, her morality and compassion and desire. Plus, tons of little details about her life. I haven't gotten that from Martha yet.
I am, however, learning heaps and gobs about the Doctor. Rose has compare-and-contrasts in nearly every episode, but so did the Doctor. So far, in the new series, we have Martha herself in S&J, Will Shakespeare in TSC, the Face of Boe in Gridlock, and Solomon and Tallulah in Daleks in Manhattan. For Martha, all I can think of is Frank in the most recent episode (but only in the most basic 'traveler offering aid' sort of way. They aren't all that similar.).
But is that because those comparisons just aren't there for Martha or is it because I don't have enough of a handle on her character to see ones that are there?
After the Doctor falls down into the pit, Rose takes charge of the group, much in the same way the Doctor always does. She finds out what people are good at, sets them to thinking, and organizes the action. She and the Doctor are treated completely as equals -- at the end, the question of "who are you" is not posed to the Doctor alone, but to the two of them. The 'mysterious couple' (and note how Rose doesn't protest when Danny says that).
This is likely the Rose that the Torchwood in Pete's World is dealing with. Determined, inspiring, and very much in love with someone who is out of reach.
Once the Doctor and Rose have been cut off from each other, she's determined to find a way to him. Once he's believed to be completely lost, she refuses to give up on him (remembering Christmas and how he didn't die, how he was so disappointed that she gave up on him there).
I mostly focus on the Doctor's speech when I talk about this episode -- it's so grand and romantic, setting Rose up as more than his equal. When he looks at her, he always sees the ghost of what she was willing to do for him, swallowing time and space to save him.
Rose's words, though, are equally heart-breakingly wonderful.
"You don't know him. 'Cause he's not... I'm telling you, he's-- he's not... and even if he was, how could I leave him? All on his own, all the way down there? No. I'm gonna stay."
Even if he is dead, how can she leave him, Rose asks.
And this episode shows us what we already know -- separated from the Doctor, Rose will always be desperate to get back to him (but not to the point of hurting someone else). I don't doubt that she's currently living a fantastic life. I also don't doubt that if she heard the sound of the TARDIS, her reaction would mirror Jack's in End of Days -- hope and happiness.
Also, in this episode, they flat-out tell us that the Doctor inspires near-instant and inexplicable trust in people. He's just that sort of guy, always has been. People fall for the Doctor and trust in him very soon after meeting him (I didn't object to Martha's words in Gridlock because that's everyone's reaction to meeting the Doctor. He's just kinda a trust-worthy bloke, despite being ten kinds of dangerous).
I am... much fonder of Love and Monsters than most people seem to be. I love what it says about life, love, and the Doctor. I love what it does for Jackie's characterization ("I will never let her down. And I’ll protect them both until the end of my life.").
Also, I just have a lot of fun watching this episode. I like the members of LINDA and find them all very endearing.
So, in almost all of the first and second season episodes, we have characters that are identified with Rose or that she directly identifies with, and I think that that may be what I'm missing most with Martha. That's what made me connect so quickly with Rose -- the interpersonal relationships were set up so well and she went out there and connected with people so easily. We learn so much about Rose in all of those relationships, where I still don't feel as though I know all that much about Martha.
Rose -- Rose's relationships with Mickey and Jackie are quickly delineated and will be expanded upon throughout her entire run. Her childish and prankish romance with Mickey informs us as to her starting place in her emotional journey -- Rose is still a child in many ways and she takes Mickey so for granted that she doesn't notice when he's been replaced by living plastic. But when she's realized that he could be dead, her sorrow is deep and real and she thinks of the consequences -- people (his family) will need to know that he's dead.
Her relationship with her mother shows many of the same traits -- she makes sure that her mum's all right at the end of Rose, but cuts off the connection before anything else is said. Safety assured on both sides, that's all she needs to know for the moment.
And the Doctor... Rose shows so much determination in trying to figure out what's happening. And I found it very interesting that, even before she really knows him, she's protecting him. She doesn't say a word about having spoken with a man who told her that he was going to blow up the building. She tells (faux)Mickey that she gets the feeling that the Doctor's dangerous. This ends up being both true and irrelevant. The Doctor goes headlong into dangerous situations, but, as Rose finds out in this episode, those are the moments that can make you feel the most alive. Her smile as they leave the Nestene lair is a precursor of just how like the Doctor she's going to become.
Other things we learn: Rose got the bronze in gymnastics. *grins* She dated a bloke named Jimmy Stone -- he's the reason she dropped out of school and never got her A-levels. It ended badly. We know that she isn't the sort to muck about looking for compensation for her job blowing up, we know that she doesn't want to work at the butcher's. We know that her mum thinks that she has 'airs and graces' and we know that she wants a better life than she's got. Mostly all basic introductory character stuff, but Rose is so intensely dense with it. We know where she is in life, we know who the most important people in her life are, we know why she isn't happy and why she's willing to go with the Doctor in the end.
Mickey and Jackie are also launched on their own character journeys here, as they encounter aliens for the first time. Jackie freezes, terrified that she's going to be killed. When the attack is over, her first thought is of warning Rose. Mickey wants to run away, calls all things alien bad, whether or not that alien's hurt him.
The End of the World -- Rose connects momentarily to Raffalo, tries and fails to connect with Cassandra, and then, in the real connection of the episode, the Doctor tells her about his planet. He takes her to the end of the Earth so that she can understand him. In some ways, there's a test in this (as there is in The Unquiet Dead), because if Rose can't handle this, then she can't handle him. But it appears to be an unconscious testing.
Other important things we learn in this episode -- Rose is the sort of person who, when given a time machine, will pick forwards first. Again, this is something we don't know about Martha, one way or the other (I was thrilled when we found that she'd 'always wanted' to see New York. Something new, something that hadn't been established in her introduction. It was thrilling.). Rose is the sort of person who, when she is billions of years in the future, still wants to be able to call her mom to let her know she's all right. We learn that she's remembered enough from school to know about continental drift and how long it takes for the sun to expand.
She experiences culture shock from seeing all of the 'alien' aliens, and goes off in a room to think about it all. And then she encounters Raffalo, and finds out that aliens aren't always so alien after all. She's relieved to find out that there are still plumbers in the future, surprised (as she always is) when she hits up against some rule of society keeping people down (in this case, the rule against Raffalo not speaking unless given permission).
When she and the Doctor argue, she brings up another name from her life before -- her best mate Shireen. "Never argue with the designated driver."
We learn that Rose isn't a fan of massive amounts of plastic surgery ("You're just lipstick and skin, Cassandra. Everything human got chucked in the bin.). She learns that it's much more than humanity that makes a person -- Raffalo is a sympathetic person, while Cassandra is willing to kill without hesitation, all for money. And yet, after everything, she still has compassion for Cassandra and asks the Doctor to help her.
The Unquiet Dead -- Rose connects in a big way with Gwyneth. Gwyneth -- serving girl who saved the world, echoes Rose's ultimate journey in a big way.
This is also the episode where the Doctor gives him second big challenge to Rose (the first was -- 'aliens and terrifying things, can you handle it?'). "It's a different morality. Get used to it or go home." Even though the Doctor is horribly wrong about the Gelth, Rose still understands the basic point of his lesson, a continuation of what she's started learning in End of the World -- just because something's human, doesn't mean that it's better.
Aliens in London -- Rose goes home, and we learn so much about her. And Harriet Jones is a mirror for her in these two episodes -- she has a relatively unimportant job, but she's determined and clever. She finds things out, confronts aliens, and discovers how much there is in the world.
Anyway, I'm stopping here because that's where we are with Martha. We're at the beginning of her first two-parter. And I still don't feel like I know her all that well. Seriously, I knew Rose so well at this point. Her feelings for her family, her yearning for more, her morality and compassion and desire. Plus, tons of little details about her life. I haven't gotten that from Martha yet.
I am, however, learning heaps and gobs about the Doctor. Rose has compare-and-contrasts in nearly every episode, but so did the Doctor. So far, in the new series, we have Martha herself in S&J, Will Shakespeare in TSC, the Face of Boe in Gridlock, and Solomon and Tallulah in Daleks in Manhattan. For Martha, all I can think of is Frank in the most recent episode (but only in the most basic 'traveler offering aid' sort of way. They aren't all that similar.).
But is that because those comparisons just aren't there for Martha or is it because I don't have enough of a handle on her character to see ones that are there?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-28 06:53 pm (UTC)(Though, having gone through CPR training myself, I have to say her technique was lousy--30 compressions, two breaths!)
So yeah, I think we do get a lot of little character moments for Martha all over. She reads Harry Potter. She knows old hymns. She yanks the drug off the pregnant woman's neck. She apparently has seen Das Boot or Hunt for Red October (the submarine thing in "Gridlock"). She won't settle for crap answers from our favorite emotionally-wounded Gallifreyan. Little bits here and there that are adding up to a woman I quite like. Rose resonated with me on one level, but I think Martha will on another level altogether.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-28 07:20 pm (UTC)She's able to extrapolate that hey, this guy's got two hearts, and perhaps she needs to adjust her CPR for that.
I'm still baffled at how she can be all, "Oh, two hearts, must adjust," and then refuse to believe that he's alien later on. Unless that's part of the episode comparing her with the Doctor -- get the little details, miss the huge thing staring you in the face.
Rose resonated with me on one level, but I think Martha will on another level altogether.
I'm really hoping that she will for me in time. Because, so far, she and I just don't click. And, hey, maybe we won't. It'd be nice, though.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-29 03:36 pm (UTC)I also don't understand why Martha so in love with the Doctor.
For me, the moment when the Rose becomes lethally fascinated with the Doctor is when Nine makes that whole speech about how he can feel the Earth move. That was an amazing moment. At that point, he had proven to be both dangerous and incredibly callous about the victims of the Autons. But the mystery he represented couldn't be denied, and once Rose discovered he was all alone and that he needed her, nothing could have kept her out of the TARDIS.
There hasn't been a moment like that in Season 3. Other than Martha's very normal attraction to a cute man with scruffy hair, tight suits and sneakers, there is nothing really *special* binding her to the Doctor.
She's got a big family, probably lots of friends, and a medical degree to work on. Why would she leave all that for a mere attraction? They made it pretty obvious that adventure was not the main reason she boarded the TARDIS, but rather her desire to get into the Doctor's pants.
The Doctor doesn't appreciate her, he puts her in horrifyingly dangerous situations, and he's still madly in love with another girl.
The Rose/Doctor relationship had elements of romance, a father/daughter
relationship, and mentor/apprentice. We understood that Rose was the Doctor's *savior.* Their relationship had so much depth, even by episode 5.
At this point the writers haven't done anything to show a *deeper* connection between them, so Martha's unrequited whatever, just makes her look a bit foolish and, their proto-relationship, a bit shallow.
I see that Martha is very smart and capable and, wow, incredibly pretty, but at this point I don't feel emotionally involved with her.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-01 02:45 am (UTC)I do think, for all her "you have to earn that with me" speeches, that she's a bit in awe of the Doctor. In the most recent episode, near the end, we get a shot of Martha while the Doctor works his magic and she looks so completely awestruck. "The Doctor is in!"
But it's all one-sided. Oh, he likes her... to exactly the same extent that he likes Frank. He thinks she's clever and brave and a good person. Which he thinks of countless others. He doesn't have any special draw to her, specifically. And so her feelings are being thrown against a wall that doesn't even notice them (because he took her at face value when she said she only fancied humans and hasn't considered that she might like him for a moment since then).
I see that Martha is very smart and capable and, wow, incredibly pretty, but at this point I don't feel emotionally involved with her.
Yes. Exactly. She's got brains and guts and beauty, but not emotional weight.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-29 06:51 pm (UTC)I went into series 3 not sure of what to expect but really hoping I'd like Martha. And I do like Martha, but she just hasn't resonated with me, and it's awesome to see someone put into words some of the reasons why because I hadn't even been able to figure it out in my own head!
When I picture season 1 and Rose's introduction in my head I get images of both Rose and the Doctor. Season 3 has been all about the Doctor and while I'm rather yay at that, because I love Ten like mad, I sort of wish there was more bits of Martha that really stuck out. Here's the the future, I suppose!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-01 02:49 am (UTC)Thanks! It's always lovely to read something like that.
When I picture season 1 and Rose's introduction in my head I get images of both Rose and the Doctor. Season 3 has been all about the Doctor and while I'm rather yay at that, because I love Ten like mad, I sort of wish there was more bits of Martha that really stuck out. Here's the the future, I suppose!
It really is coming across as completely David Tennant's season -- he's the emotional centerpiece of everything, whereas with Billie Piper, he was half of an pair that was treated pretty much equally (particularly towards the end of the season). And Season One was much the same way -- both characters had profound emotional distance to travel over the course of thirteen episodes. Martha hasn't had much of a journey so far, but the Doctor is getting tons of juicy character bits.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-04-29 11:46 pm (UTC)I've gotten two compassionate moments from Martha so far - when she closes her supervisor's eyes in S&J, and when she hugs Tellulah in her dressing room (although that seemed so incredibly forced and unnatural in execution) - but aside from that, I don't see her having anything approaching Rose's compassion, wonder, ready acceptance, strength or courage. I have seen her do and say several clever things (and also just as many rather thick ones). Her defining character traits for me (aside from the supposed superior intelligence, which to me just seems slightly above average - but thank god she's not another Adric :p) are that she challenges the Doctor, she's enfatuated, and she'd like the Doctor to revolve around her. The flip side is that she's got the potential to be bitchy, jealous, self-centered, and self-pitying.
She just doesn't seem to have a lot of depth yet - I'm hoping that that'll change once the actress 'owns' the character more & she's given more to work with. As you said, we definitely don't know much about her yet.
So yeah, not much to connect with. But I'm hoping she'll go through a character transformation - that seems to be the precedent with these new series companions *g* So I'm cautiously optimistic. I didn't care for Mickey, Jackie, or even Rose initially, but look how they turned out!
(no subject)
Date: 2007-05-01 02:57 am (UTC)Yay for like-minded fen!
She just doesn't seem to have a lot of depth yet - I'm hoping that that'll change once the actress 'owns' the character more & she's given more to work with. As you said, we definitely don't know much about her yet.
*nods*
The actress doesn't seem to be at home with Martha yet. She's playing it a little flat and shallow. But there's definite hope for her. Cautiously optimistic is a good way to be, I think.