Angel thoughts:

[butterfly]

So, I only have 53 of the Angel episodes on tape, a testament to how erratic my viewing and love of the show has been.

My problem was always that I didn't care about Angel. First I cared about Doyle, then Wesley, then Wesley and Connor. So I wasn't in it for Angel's journey, which made it easy for me to stop watching the show. It was on a level with Dawson's Creek, where I only watched for the Pacey/Joey and didn't bother watching if the buzz didn't sound good.

Now that I love Angel, I'm mourning my lack of tapeage. I have almost all of Season Two (missing half of ep 15 because of taping issues), much of Season Four (missing eps 3 and 8-11), ten Season One eps, and only five Season Three eps.

Season Two is when I totally fell in love with Wesley, after hating him for taking Doyle's place in first season. I also adored Darla, as I recall, which wasn't the popular thing. And Lindsey was brilliant. I loved the Darla/Lindsey/Angel thing. "It's not me you want to screw."

I fell out with the show in Season Three because I hated the Baby!Arc and I hated the Angel/Cordy thing.

Then it took a while for Season Four to hook me, but I was only watching because of Wesley and (to my great surprise) Connor at the start. Then, finally, Angel started to reach me. He touched my heart. And it's staying. I've rewatched some earlier eps, and I'm with Angel. I get him now. I never did before.

Watching Angel is a totally different experience when you love him.

Comments

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

Dude, I'm so with you on this.

Angel, particularly on BtVS, was a total cipher to me. It wasn't until this past season on AtS that I realized why. On BtVS, we saw him only through Buffy's eyes. We rarely saw anything from him that she didn't see, and she lacked all curiosity about him. Well, probably not, she probably just didn't want to know what she'd find out if she really got to know him.

But this past season he has so worked for me. I actually actively admire him now and felt every step of his terribly journey with Connor. Angel's totally my boy now.

The same thing happened for me with Buffy. I didn't really fall in love with Buffy as a character until S5. Before then I liked her okay, but watched the show for the other characters. Not necessarily in *spite* of her (I continued to watch AtS in spite of Cordy, whom I came to despise) but never because of her.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Well, on Angel.

I've always loved Buffy, even when she made go "the Hell?" I could work myself around to seeing her side. I wanted to find her side. And until this season happened, I didn't care enough about Angel to see his side.

And word on Cordy. She's a major part of why I stopped watching S3 Angel. I enjoyed Evil!Cordy, but that was all because of Connor's attachment to the Cordy he loved. Then again, I was never a major Cordy fan. She was mostly just bitchy background for me. Then she was all there and saintly and annoying.

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

I never had any problem at all with Buffy, and her pre-S5 difficulties certainly touched me. See, pre-S4, I was all about Willow identification. Then Willow went away in S4 and I was lost and drifting. But then in S5 I started really feeling Buffy. I identify with Anya, but Buffy now...she's like my daughter or something. I would kill for that girl.

Cordy amused me on BtVS and on AtS until sometime during S2. I remember about halfway through S2, my husband and I had a discussion about how much we were beginning to hate her. All bitch, all criticism, all the time. Okay, that's fine when everyone around her rolls their eyes at her and dismisses her. But *god*, Angel, Wes and Gunn all took her so damn seriously. Like, treating her like a legitimate, valid human, and all she's doing is slamming them constantly. And frankly, she'd stopped being hot enough to get away with that. The only reason a bunch of guys would've put up with that crap would be if she was still so hot that they each really wanted to sleep with her. And she was losing it at that point.

I'm so glad she's gone. =)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, I was never a Willow-girl. It was Buffy all the way for me. Willow was too... manipulative for me. Not that I thought she was intentionally manipulative, but just... remember Oz in the Wish, telling her that she'd just trying to make herself feel better and ignoring what he needs. I've always gotten that from Willow. Really, the only time that I liked her was when she was with Tara, and that was all for Tara.

But yeah, Cordy was just... like, when Wes called her after he and Virginia broke up and she said that he didn't count as a friend? You can take that as joking, or you can take into account the fact that she didn't want to talk to him about his problems and think... well, she was kinda telling the truth. She was never as serious about them as people as they were about her.

I, too, breathed a sigh of relief when I heard she wasn't coming back.

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

ITA about Willow, in retrospect. I do find her an extremely interesting character, because when you look back on her...damn. So unlikeable. I connected to her purely because of the Xander/Willow ship in the first two seasons. I am helpless to resist the best friends unrequited love thing. The best one liner I ever heard on Willow was some TWoP poster who said, "She thinks she's a much, much better person than she actually is." I hate Willow now. =)

I also have major CC issues right now because I'm pissed at her for ruining my S4 fun. I enjoyed S4, but since learning that Cordy was originally intended to *be* in the Jasmine role I've stewed about how much better that would've been. It's so clear now - it's the ultimate arc for her, it's where the character has always been headed. Queen C to Princess Cordelia to star of "Cordy!" to "Minions, I'd like a temple." Perfect. I resent it when perfect things are ruined. Babies ruin everything. Unless they're playing Maya Fisher. =)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Whereas I was all with Xander and the unrequited "he fell in love at first sight" B/X thing. But yeah, the Willow quote that stays in my head is "I'm very seldom naughty." How can you be that deluded about yourself?

And I would have loved Cordy as Big Bad. Of course, where would Connor have fit in? As her champion, yes, but he wouldn't be such a major part. And that would have made me sad. But yeah, it would have been the ultimate expression of Cordy's journey of ego. She and Willow have a lot in common, Cordy was just more open about it, to herself and to others.

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

Whereas I was all with Xander and the unrequited "he fell in love at first sight" B/X thing.You know, I would be fine with B/X now. In fact, sometime in S5 I decided that he'd probably be the best choice for her, of the available pool. But early on all I thought was, "If Xander gets to end up with his fantasy girl it'll be like Michael Rappaport in Beautiful Girls ending up with Claudia freaking Schiffer and I shall murder someone". I do think that later in the series he actually saw Buffy as a person, a good and loveable person, really admired and respected her while letting her down off of her pedestal.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I never really wanted them to get together on the show. I was hoping for... at the most, a kiss on the last episode, for the least, hope that it could happen. And there was hope at the end.

But yeah, they both needed to grow up. For a while there, Xander was grown up while Buffy was all with the regression. Luckily, she went and grew up, too. I'm pleased about that.

I really liked what she said to Angel. About herself being cookie dough.

If they'd gotten together on the show, Joss would have felt compelled to break them up.

Hail, fellow Darla adorer of the first hour!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And yes, it definitely wasn't the cool thing in season 2. I remember endless bitching about how she took air time away from Cordy or other regulars, how JB couldn't act (ha!), etc.
Now of course things are different, but, to quote the Jasmine minion, we loved her first!
I did like Angel, too, but I lost emotional contact with him during the Pylea episodes and never truly regained it during season 3. The first shudder of empathy came when Connor returned from Quartoth in "A New World". Season 4 then brought the emotional connection back.
As for Cordy: my emotional connection went away during season 3 as well and never came back, but apparantly, that was what happened with the writers, too (see Tim Minear admitting at the Succubus Club they wrote themselves into a corner with the St. Cordy thing).

Re: Hail, fellow Darla adorer of the first hour!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yay!

Hey, I enjoyed Darla back at her original introduction. I'll never forget that she was the first major character to show up. And she is Buffy, only in a different direction. She's also a pretty blonde that you shouldn't underestimate, because she can kick your ass. And I loved seeing her again in Inside Out. It made sense that her final sacrifice would send her to a good place when she died. Darla had more incarnations than anyone. Human! Vampire! Dust! Human! Vampire! Dust! Ghost! And I always liked Julie Benz. I always felt like the character of Darla made sense. Yeah, she simpered a lot in S2, but she was driving Angel insane and obsessed.

But yeah, I was never emotionally attached to Cordy. She was too self-centered. "The whole world sucks because some dead ditz made a wish?" I never felt like she moved past that, she just moved from helping her ego by being rich to helping her ego by being morally superior. Not that she ever didn't act morally superior.

Oh yes, Darla and Buffy are...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

...Hitchcockian doppelgangers. Who frequently even get the same lines; notably "close your eyes" (Darla to Liam before she bites him, Buffy to Angel before she sends him to hell), and "was it me? Was I not good?". (Proving once and for all that, fanfic aside, one shouldn't wish sex with Angel on anybody. The morning after, you know.) Loved her in "Inside Out", too, and admired once again the casting of VK who really does look like JB and DB both. Of course, this ruined a plot bunny about a Connor and ghostly Darla story which haunted me for a while...

Re: Oh yes, Darla and Buffy are...

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Someone really should go through and find all the Buffy/Darla parallels.

And yes, Angel is not good for someone's self-esteem when it comes to sex.

Word about VK. I'm very impressed that they managed to find someone who looked like JB and DB and was a great actor.

Re: Hail, fellow Darla adorer of the first hour!

[dkissam.livejournal.com]

You know, I feel so comfortable coming out to you with my Willow hate that I shall share my totally unfounded AH/JB conspiracy theory. Well, not conspiracy, just uncommon interpretation.

So, everybody always points to this interview AH did where she said how mean JB was to her during S1 Buffy. I took that at face value for a long time. Then I noticed something.

JB attends fan events and everybody and their brother, fans and her co-workers alike, talks about how completely dollsome she is. It turns out she's married to the freaking Cryptkeeper, which indicates she's not interested in A. Looks or B. Money. So she must be an actual beautiful girl who fell in love with an actual not beautiful, not wealthy, guy. No one else ever says a harsh word about JB...

But AH has trash-talked other actresses in her interviews, while nobody has ever trash-talked her in theirs. What's up with that? If these were real people (well, they are, but I mean real as in real to me, people I know) AH would be the one who'd get the arched eyebrow from me.

Maybe I'm just assigning AH the same manipulative, whiny, shrill personality I've assigned to Willow, but it does sort of seem like Joss has ended up writing the characters to fit the personalities of the actors. JB could be a poser. But I suspect Hannigan is the bitca, m'self. =)

Re: Hail, fellow Darla adorer of the first hour!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, AH has also been unsubtle in her dislike of SMG. Not that she says anything. She just doesn't mention her in an obvious way.

If Joss is writing them as they are, then AH is a bit of a manipulative bitch and SMG is a bit cold and professional but a good person who just comes across as a bitch sometimes but means well and cares. And NB doesn't draw enough attention to himself. You should have acted out more, Nick!

That actually makes sense to me. AH comes across as sweet and nice on the surface but... so does Willow. It's looking at her actions as compared to her words that shows you what Willow's really like.

[imation23.livejournal.com]

God, I loved Darla. Especially after she was turned for the second time.

"Winners will be given the chance to spread carnage and destruction. Losers will be gutted and left for dead." Hee!

And I'm glad you've finally found the Angel love. I've had it since Buffy Season 1. *g*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Darla just had so many forms, so many incarnations.

And yeah, she was such a kick-ass and interesting vamp the second time around.

This Angel thing is so... I want an Angel icon! That doesn't involve making fun of him! It's so weird! It's been weeks and it's still so weird.