The Vampire with a Soul - Angel and Spike

[butterfly]

Can you steal someone's destiny?

It's interesting that Angel doubts whether he's the one to Shanshu. In fact, it's necessary. He should have doubt and doubts. Questioning is the way to the truth.

But we have some interesting outside information on Angel. What do we know? What are the possibilities?

The Oracles acknowledged him as a hero. Were they working for Jasmine? When he turned human, they seemed willing to let him go and were torn about whether or not to make him a champion again. Did Jasmine know that there was another possible miracle coming up or did she think that Angel was her one shot? The visions were sent to him. Doyle was specifically sent to seek out Angel and help him. Lorne sees some interesting things about Angel - including the fact that apparently the whole Darla thing wasn't on 'his path'. Really? That's interesting, in light of the Jasmine revelation.

Wolfram and Hart were destined to sever Angel's connection to the Powers. They succeeded. It was foretold.

What the Vocah says - "The old order passes away and the new order's come. He that was first shall now be last and he that was dead shall now arise." Seems relevant to our current situation.

Also from Vocah: "As it was written they shall prepare the way and the very gate of hell shall open. That which is above shall tremble for that which is below shall arise. And the world shall know the beast - and the beast shall know the world." Again, has application both in S1 and in S4. The Beast?

The specific words of the prophecy that Wesley translated for us are "The vampire with a soul, once he fulfills his destiny, will Shanshu." But it never says just what that destiny is. And Shanshu means both life and death. Wesley guesses at to what it means in that context.

In The House Always Wins, they tell us that Angel's destiny is 'the vampire with a soul' - and got that from Angel himself, when he played away his destiny. Oh, and there's this, too - "Among other things, he's positioned to be a major player in the Apocalypse." Positioned implies that it's the Apocalypse that hasn't happened yet. And it's "the" Apocalypse, like Angel is "the" vampire. But how many threatened Apocalypses have we had?

Consider the actual definition of 'Aplocalyspse' - "A cosmic cataclysm in which God destroys the ruling powers of evil." Well, no wonder W&H isn't that eager to bring it about.

Does this mean that Angel has fulfilled his destiny? The specifics of what he must face - "He has to survive the coming darkness, the apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and some - uh, several, - not that many - fiends that will be unleashed." Hmm. Have we had any plagues?

Also, interesting note - Lilah was about the day-to-day evil of W&H. Once Angel became about that, she wasn't needed. Lindsey's always been about the epic/prophetic side of W&H. Therefore, when it's time to get into that, it makes sense for him to return.

And key to understanding Lindsey - "I see that you are either the one with the power - or you're powerless."

Now, do I think that Spike's a bit of a wild card? Totally. He chose to get a soul because of Buffy. And we've heard before that the PTB didn't see Buffy coming when it came to Angel/us in S2, so I doubt they saw her coming in regards to Spike. Buffy makes wild cards all the time - she's about breaking the rules of prophecy. Buffy's mere existence past her foretold death messes things up more than once (at the very least, we've got Angel and the First Evil).

Angel's first souling happened before Buffy - and thus could be foretold. Spike's souling happened because of Buffy, and that's why no prophets picked up on the second souled vampire.

Comments

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

He's back he's back he's back and I'm so happy and he can't be evil, he just can't, because that would renege on everything the writers have done with him, that made us all love him so, (some of us in a decidedly more lustful way than most) and goddamn you Americans and your "Oh, we'll just have a little break now, toodles!"

WHEN DO WE GET MORE EPISODES, YANKEE?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I know! Lindsey!

*twirls*

And Lindsey was at his most 'evil' in TSiLA - then Darla came and he seemed to go from W&H's side to Darla's side pretty fast. And while W&H's goals were the same as Darla's, that wasn't so obvious, but once they deviated, we got to see that he hadn't decided on W&H once and for all at the end of Blind Date.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

(no, seriously, when do we get more episodes? I actually know nothing at all about the American system of TV, because by the time anything gets to us, we get 22 episodes in 22 weeks, straight through.)

But even To Shanshu in L.A. wasn't a true evil Lindsey, because it was an overreaction! He felt himself falling into an abyss in Blind Date, leaving everything he'd known and then chance stopped him, and he resigned himself to death... when suddenly Holland Manners offered himself to him as a father figure and gave him a reprieve, and Lindsey, glad to be alive and beguiled by this man who claimed to understand him, to father him, decided to stay where he was and for a short time, he threw himself whole-heartedly into W&H. To Shanshu in L.A. was the exception in Lindsey, not the rule.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

January, most likely.

And yes, exactly.

[liliaeth]

Actually, I think they did, and Angel's the wild card.
Hear me out here.
Back in Becoming Whistler expected that Angel would be instrumental in stopping the rising of Acathla.
Why?
Who would have raised Acathla if not for Angelus?
Spike sure wouldn't have done it. It's not his type of thing. Causing major chaos like with the judge, sure he was up for that, but actually destroying the world, no way.

I tend to think that the PTB made a humongous mistake.
The prophecy mentioned that the foretold vampire with a soul would help the Slayer to stop the rising of Acathla.
Whistler himself said that they never saw Buffy and Angel coming...

Why would they, if the vampire that did help stop Acathla was her mortal enemy.

Think about it.
A vampire did help the Slayer.
A vampire did gain a turning point, his big moment in helping to save the world. Even if he only did it for the sake of millions of happy meals on legs.

If Spike hadn't helped Buffy, Dru wouldn't have left him, Spike wouldn't have returned to Sunnydale, gotten captured by the Initiative, fallen in love with Buffy, willingly choosing good over evil, regaining his soul and giving his life to save the world.
It's almost a straight line from one point to the other.

But the PTB, or more specifically, Whistler screwed up.
They were looking for the souled vampire. And at that point in time, there was only one souled vampire around. Angel.
Angel who most likely wouldn't have even remained souled for very long, if not for Spike's screwing up in killing that gypsies family.

So Whistler thought Angel was the champion.
And he was, just not the PTB's, he was Jasmine's chosen champion, the one to sire her father. The one to screw with Darla and beget a human child.

Yes, Doyle came to Angel, but put yourself in the PTB's shoes.
(if that were even possible;-))
They got this souled vampire, the only souled vampire around, and they can't be sure that he isn't the right one, just because of some little mistake made earlier. (not to mention, imagine the PTB having to admit they made a mistake)

So when Angel became human in IWRY, they didn't really care, by then they very likely got hints that something was going on, and that Angel might not be their only shot at a vampire champion.

They let him turn back time, but it wasn't because they needed him as a champion, but because quite simply they thought it might be handy to play it safe.

Now not to say that the shanshu is necesserily a prize. In fact, nowhere in the prophecies, or the translations, does the prophecy say the shanshu is a reward. It's something that'll happen, but it's not said wether it's a good thing or not.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Some of which makes sense, except for one very pragmatic point. It's Angel's show. Chances are the prophecies? Are about the guy in the title. Thing is, Angel is the most tragic hero Joss ever created. It SUCKS to be Angel. So if there are prophecies? They're not gonna be about rewards. Shanshu, if he gets it, will be awful. If somehow Spike gets it, it'll be a happy thing for him.

But I personally think Shanshu, like the Cup of Perpetual Dew? Is a big red herring. Someone or something wants the two vamps with souls at eachother's throats. Which means to me, in order to defeat the Big Bad, they're gonna have to work together. Who says they can't BOTH Shanshu? There are 4 billion Slayers running around now, why not two vamps with souls? Why not two vamps with souls who Shanshu? It wouldn't be as if Wes hasn't made mistakes in translations before.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wanted to make that point, too, but this essay wasn't about the meta (well, not that kind of meta).

And yeah, I'm not sure proto-whatever demon language was big on articles - could be that the 'the' is 'a' or even that vampire and destiny are meant to be plural. Or that it's not a prophecy at all - perhaps that's the natural order of things - once a vampire gets a soul, eventually it Shanshus.

We just don't know.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

Wow! That is interesting idea! I have never considered this one. Yes, Spike, or Angel, or both - but every vampire with a soul... To cool to be true, I guess. Again, nobody really knows what shanshu really is. May be to die as a human, may be to become a human, but there may be a catch in it too - to become a human as they are, or of their real age (centuries), or without memories, or newborn babies, or something else. Just to screw everyone up...
I personally prefer "vampire as perpetual adolescense" metaphor, so growing up as becoming a human would make sense to me. But that's me and not ME

[liliaeth]

I agree, like I said, the shanshu is not necesserily a reward, hence why they're not even sure on which side of the apocalypse the vampire with a soul will be.

I personally think that both sides want Angel and Spike opposed, fighting one another and the only way they can win is by standing together and finally cutitng those strings, choosing their own fate.

Having a destiny is not necesserily a good thing. In fact, it ties you up, keeps you from making choices.
Spike's strenght has been his ability to choose, to do things cause he wants them, not because they were dropped on him, no choice about that.

Spike wants a destiny because he thinks it gives him somethign special, something his, what he doesn't realize is that he's already got that. His ability to choose is special. And the moment they both realize that, is when they can find freedom, for both of them.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

And given how "Chosen" played out, a big part of me fully expects that this "Angel & Spike fight to be the souled vampire of record" thing is a red herring on a most simpler level. That we're going to wind up with a scenario with far more than just two souled vampires. And that the first Vampire to Shanshu might well be neither Angel nor Spike. It would be the "Homecoming" solution all over again, and I think it'd be hilarious in-story and on a meta-level.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It'd be interesting, to say the least.

I mean, yeah, there's a part of me that wants Angel to be human and walk off into the sunlight with the human of his choice, but most of me doesn't think that Angel would ever be happy with that. Not in the long run. That he'd always be wondering who he was condemning to death by not being there to save them. I think the only way that Angel could live as a human and be at peace with that is if there were no more demons to fight.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

In many ways, IWRY was his "Helpless". The huge sigh Buffy has in "Chosen" is not that she can quit being the slayer now. That's never going to happen. But now, she can take a sabbatical (which, I think she desperately needs) without feeling amazingly guilty that "X" people died the night she took off.

Her responsabilities have shifted, now, to where her real burden is safeguarding the legacy she's been laying down over the past seven years, more than the actual battles. I think some sort of similar understanding is what Angel would need in order to be able to live with a life where he isn't a Warrior. That's one respect, among many others, in which I think Buffy and Angel share remarkably similar mindsets.

But, so far, the way the W&H arc has played out, that seems to be something Gunn is far more equipped to handle. Though one suspects Gunn actually won't be able to handle it.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Right. They really do have a lot in common when it comes to the way they fight for good - of course, some of that is because Buffy is the person who taught Angel how to fight for good, so it makes sense that he echoes her.

And yes, Buffy needs a break. I really hope she's off having a grand old time and if she ever comes on Angel, we get to see a more relaxed and rested Buffy.

And Gunn's arc is interesting. Actually, in rewatching S2, it's interesting how natural becoming a lawer seems to fit who he was presented as - he was always the one who understood how W&H worked - tax write-offs and such.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

What really helped sell it to me, were his comments in the numero Cinco episode to me. That he's looking to the law as a tool for helping the community. For me, that's a key aspect of his character that goes all the way back to his introduction, and which I find underused. As heroes, I've always found the ME characters more gripping when I can feel the connection they have to their communities and the people they are looking to help.

But then, I went to grad school in Public Policy and have lots of pals with Social Work degrees...

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, I adored that he's doing things for the community. Made it make even more sense - he can do wide-scale good at W&H that can be felt on the level of the streets. Reminds me of what he said about Nabbit - "Well, you let me know when some of that coin trickles down to these parts."

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Interesting theory.

I'm really looking forward to how this season unfolds.