Wesley and Fred -- Consistent Obsession

[butterfly]

In the following, I'm a little less than my usual understanding and conciliatory self. I get a little testy, actually. It might even be considered a bit of a rant.

So, Wes is All About Fred. Why is this a shock to people? If it's bad characterization, it's bad characterization that started around Billy and never went away. He's obsessed with her as a symbol of What Makes the World Worth Fighting For -- actually, it might even be Billy that sets that view in stone for him, because she sees him at his worst and still wants to be his friend. You don't forget that kind of reaching out.

So, he fell in love. Maybe it was unhealthy, maybe still feeling it after so much time is also unhealthy, but unhealthy loves don't strike me as terribly unrealistic. People do horrible things all the time for people they claim to be in love with.

They've never shown any sign that Wes ever got over Fred. He was mooning over Fred while he was fucking Lilah (Supersymmetry -- and Wesley did come to care for Lilah very much). He was longing for her after the Lilah relationship had ended but before Lilah died (Soulless). He still loved her after the memory change (Life of the Party). He's loved her for so long, and he finally, finally had her choose him. She chooses him over another option (Knox). She kisses him. He got his moment of happiness, then like it happens so often in Joss-verse, he lost everything.

She kissed him and that confirmed to him that what he was feeling was right and true -- love enough and hard enough and sometimes dreams come true. Then, sometimes they become nightmares and Wesley watched the woman that he had loved for most of her time in his life die a painful, horrible death. From all that Wes believes, not only is Fred gone, but her soul is utterly destroyed.

Every single time that Wes chooses Fred, it seems like some people are surprised. He's been consistently choosing her, choosing to view her as paramount, for quite some time. It may be stupid or unhealthy or a sign of his personal brokenness, but it's an established character trait that's been in existence since early season three, before he even viewed Lilah as an individual person. For Fred, he'll help AI. For Fred, he'll kill what he thinks is his father. For Fred, he'll casually shoot someone in the knee and extract merciless revenge. For Fred's appearance and memories, he'll align himself with someone Angel considers an enemy (as Angel definitely did at the end of Shells). For the hope of knowing Fred, of knowing the past, of even the smallest hope of getting part of Fred back, he'll directly cross Angel. Fred isn't the only person that Wes pushes himself for (Angel definitely being on the list), but she definitely is someone he'll push past himself for.

Comments

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

He's loved her for so long, and he finally, finally had her choose him.

And for that extra dose of man-pain, he now gets to wonder whether she would have chosen him had she still remembered what he'd done before the memory wipe. So there's some extra grist for his mill.

So, Wes is All About Fred. Why is this a shock to people? If it's bad characterization, it's bad characterization that started around Billy and never went away.

Yeah. It's not bad characterization. It might be annoying characterization to some (yours truly included) but it's not "bad" (as in technically rather than artistically bad). It's rather consistent characterization. (Moreso than his unexplored and unexplained motivation for joining W&H at any rate.)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

And for that extra dose of man-pain, he now gets to wonder whether she would have chosen him had she still remembered what he'd done before the memory wipe. So there's some extra grist for his mill.

So true. And would she ever have loved the man that he was then if she were still the woman that she'd been? Horrible question to be asking himself now in his grief.

Yeah. It's not bad characterization. It might be annoying characterization to some (yours truly included) but it's not "bad" (as in technically rather than artistically bad). It's rather consistent characterization. (Moreso than his unexplored and unexplained motivation for joining W&H at any rate.)

Exactly. I've found his Fred-focus to be disconcerting at times, too. But it's not something that's wavered over the seasons.

[minim_calibre]

Slap my hand now!

To be clear, I think that ME did a bad job with the whole thing, BUT, bad job or no, yeah, it's been a pretty freakin' steady pulse behind his actions since S3.

Hell, Lilah (bless her) played it all the way to the bedroom, using his worries about Connor and fears for Fred in their bar scene in Tomorrow. (And I'm one of the people who does believe that he loved Lilah, but love is not a binary proposition.)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

To be clear, I think that ME did a bad job with the whole thing, BUT, bad job or no, yeah, it's been a pretty freakin' steady pulse behind his actions since S3.

Yep. Love it or hate it, it is not a new thing and should not be shocking people every week. Oh! Wes loves Fred! Why? Where'd it come from?

Hell, Lilah (bless her) played it all the way to the bedroom, using his worries about Connor and fears for Fred in their bar scene in Tomorrow. (And I'm one of the people who does believe that he loved Lilah, but love is not a binary proposition.)

I think that he loved her, too. I actually think that it was probably a more mature love in several ways than what he feels for Fred.

[teenes.livejournal.com]

Oh, ITA that it's consistent and nothing new, and has been a big part of Wesley's character all along. I just find it kind of disturbing at times. Though not as much as some, I'm sure.

But then, I may not be who you're speaking to here anyway. I tend to think that ME is good at consistent, believable characterization in general. Wes and his Fred-love is no exception.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, ITA that it's consistent and nothing new, and has been a big part of Wesley's character all along. I just find it kind of disturbing at times. Though not as much as some, I'm sure.

But then, I may not be who you're speaking to here anyway. I tend to think that ME is good at consistent, believable characterization in general. Wes and his Fred-love is no exception.

You aren't. It actually disturbs me sometimes, too. But I like the way it disturbs me, which is why I support his continuing love for her. I like broken, obsessive, geeky, 'in love' Wes. I own my kinks. I love the Lilah-as-Fred scene in Supersymmetry because it was such a fun fucked-up powerplay. Even more so since I think that he did like Lilah on her own, but totally got off on her dressing up as Fred.

[teenes.livejournal.com]

Oh no doubt. Disturbing and wrong, but fertile ground for all sorts of twisted stories =).

[jenelope.livejournal.com]

Abso-freaking-lutely. I've been arguing this since "Smile Time." Actually, I believe that Wesley was falling in love with Fred before "Billy," but, since he'd tried to kill her and experienced something he didn't know he was capable of feeling, he put his interest on pause. Then everything became about missed opportunities for two seasons. When they ended up together, I wasn't surprised, I was thinking, "'Bout damned time."

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Abso-freaking-lutely. I've been arguing this since "Smile Time." Actually, I believe that Wesley was falling in love with Fred before "Billy," but, since he'd tried to kill her and experienced something he didn't know he was capable of feeling, he put his interest on pause. Then everything became about missed opportunities for two seasons. When they ended up together, I wasn't surprised, I was thinking, "'Bout damned time."

Because he's not the only one who was interested. Fred, though, needed a relationship -- which is probably why it's good for Wes that they didn't get together back then, because I think it was about having a relationship for her then. She wanted to be normal. Her relationship with Gunn was all about being a normal girl in love. Probably because she'd never really gotten the chance to do that. She had to do that before she could look for a relationship that was actually about the people and not about 'boy and girl'. And Gunn's reasons for being with her are equally not so much about Fred, seeing as the thing he admired most about her was how much she could eat -- in retrospect, I'm really enjoying watching Fred and Gunn, because it's clear how little the relationship is actually about Fred and Gunn -- just like Angel and Cordy wasn't about them, but about their roles. Two matched sets: one of champions, one of the 'normal humans'.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I very much agree with you on the consistency of Wesley’s feeling towards Fred. I did not think they could keep a healthy relationship, I was a little bit surprised by the turn of Fred’s feelings after “Lineage”, but Wesley did love Fred – since season three. It actually makes his relationship with Lilah even more interesting and poignant, because he loved her in a different way. Or I say better: his feelings for Fred and Lilah informed and influenced each other.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I very much agree with you on the consistency of Wesley’s feeling towards Fred. I did not think they could keep a healthy relationship, I was a little bit surprised by the turn of Fred’s feelings after “Lineage”, but Wesley did love Fred – since season three. It actually makes his relationship with Lilah even more interesting and poignant, because he loved her in a different way. Or I say better: his feelings for Fred and Lilah informed and influenced each other.

That actually made a lot of sense to me -- she fell for Angel after he saved her and she kissed Gunn after he got hurt in a fight. She's attracted to guys who'll fight to protect her. She doesn't want to be a damsel in distress, but she does want a White Knight -- but one that lets her fight right alongside him, which is where Gunn tripped up --not in the actual fighting, but in thinking that he could make her choices for her -- that's what I think made her not want to be with him anymore, and he didn't want to be with her because he'd been equally disillusioned, he hadn't thought that she was the revenge-type. He didn't actually know her too well.

Wes, on the other hand, brings her into the fight, wants to protect her, but never wants to limit her choices. She wants to send her evil prof to a hell dimension? He'll warn her of the dangers, physical, emotional, and moral, and then let her make the choice about her actions. Even in Lineage, he only backtracks on bringing her to the meet because of Angel's dressing down. He knows that she can take care of herself and that she has the right to choose whether or not to go into danger. In Lineage, he shows her how far he's willing to go for her sake. She responds to that.

OK, I have to disagree with you here

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Yes, you can say that Gunn and Angel infantilised Fred in Supersymmetry, and they certainly should not have just brushed aside her anger. But I disapprove of cold-blooded murder, and I think that actively aiding somebody to commit it is not showing respect for them but pure amoral nihilism. (Watching that episode, I also have to wonder if for Wes it wasn't about knocking Fred off the moral high ground a little, given his resentment for everyone after S3.)

Re: OK, I have to disagree with you here

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, supporting cold-blooded murder is wrong. I do agree with that.

From Fred's point of view, his actions in Supersymmentry separated Wesley from Angel and Gunn. He supported her. And she wasn't planning murder. Torture and the possibility of death, but he had a chance to survive in her plan. She survived a hell dimension, as did Connor.

She was looking for revenge, pure and simple -- eye for an eye. Was it wrong? Probably. Was it understandable? Possibly. But she wasn't planning on killing him, but on doing to him exactly what he'd done to her.

Fred and Wesley were both aware that it wasn't the right choice -- "It's not about what's right." Wesley makes it all very clear -- "Vengeance will have a price. And once you've acted, you can't go back. You have to live with your actions forever." And Fred makes her choice clear -- "You asked me not to kill him, and I'm not. Not exactly."

She made a choice and Gunn took it away. It was the wrong choice, but she was the injured party and she wasn't going to kill the man. She wanted to, but that wasn't her plan. She was going to give him the same chance that she had, that Connor had.

Wow. I had no clue that I felt so strongly about that.

Not obsession

[bhadrasvapna.livejournal.com]

In the words of Xander, either you feel a thing or you don't. Loving someone becomes unhealthy when it isn't really love, but codependency masquerading as love. When feelings that can be confused with love are generated to fill holes in us, that is what is unhealthy. Is this what happened to Wesley in regards to Fred? Is this what happened to Xander in regards to Buffy? Or are both women worthy of generating these feelings in someone? Wesley speaks about Fred is glowing terms, but I think she merits them. If anyone idealizes her, it is ME in the way they write her, not the male characters who react to her. Wesley doesn't need to idealize Fred. She is the ideal.

Fred being the feminine ideal/heart/anima and Wesley being masculine consciousness/mind/logos form a very special union, much in the way the masculine Slayer Spirit was united with the feminine Scythe to empower the Potentials. It makes sense for him to be attracted to her. It makes sense for him to be willing to do things for her. It would be unhealthy for him not to. It isn't obsession. It is an honest acknowledgment of his feelings.

Re: Not obsession

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

In the words of Xander, either you feel a thing or you don't. Loving someone becomes unhealthy when it isn't really love, but codependency masquerading as love. When feelings that can be confused with love are generated to fill holes in us, that is what is unhealthy. Is this what happened to Wesley in regards to Fred? Is this what happened to Xander in regards to Buffy? Or are both women worthy of generating these feelings in someone? Wesley speaks about Fred is glowing terms, but I think she merits them. If anyone idealizes her, it is ME in the way they write her, not the male characters who react to her. Wesley doesn't need to idealize Fred. She is the ideal.

Fred being the feminine ideal/heart/anima and Wesley being masculine consciousness/mind/logos form a very special union, much in the way the masculine Slayer Spirit was united with the feminine Scythe to empower the Potentials. It makes sense for him to be attracted to her. It makes sense for him to be willing to do things for her. It would be unhealthy for him not to. It isn't obsession. It is an honest acknowledgment of his feelings.

That's a very interesting perspective. And one that I agree with in many ways. Wes' devotion can be mildly scary, but it's understandable given the writing of Fred. Especially given the writing of the Fred/Wes relationship, which I'm very much appreciating in the Season Three rewatch. It's an interesting dance.

[nova25.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear! I'm getting so very sick of people whining about how Fred's been Mary Sue-ized and how it's out of character. Sure, you can argue that Fred's importance to the group is unrealistic. But you can't argue that it's not always been there. Cordy took her under her wing. Wes and Gunn both fell for her. Lorne protected her even when the chips were in chippy pieces. Etc, etc.

The gang's reaction in A Hole in the World reminds me a lot of the Scoobies in regards to Tara in Family-- not all of them might have been close to Fred, but they were sure as hell going to give all to protect her.

And someday I will write my essay on my Wes/Fred is not necessarily based on crazy obsession. Because I think the world needs alternate points of view. xD

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

And someday I will write my essay on my Wes/Fred is not necessarily based on crazy obsession. Because I think the world needs alternate points of view.

Honestly, I think that Wes' love for Fred is crazy obsession because that's just the way that Wes' love works sometimes -- he's that way with Angel, too. It's the devotion, idealization love that gets him that way. But I definitely think that he geniunely loves Fred for Fred and not for an image. Gunn idealized her a great deal more.

And I'd love to read that essay when it gets written.

[inyron.livejournal.com]

but unhealthy loves don't strike me as terribly unrealistic

Word. Word to all of it, actually.

I think some people kept getting suprised because they let their own wants cloud things. Getting deserted in the hospital, taking up with Lilah, the mind wipe- these would be perfect oppurtunities for Wes to let his Fredlove die, if it was going to happen. And assumptions may have been made, from people who didn't like Fred or the relationship.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think some people kept getting suprised because they let their own wants cloud things. Getting deserted in the hospital, taking up with Lilah, the mind wipe- these would be perfect oppurtunities for Wes to let his Fredlove die, if it was going to happen. And assumptions may have been made, from people who didn't like Fred or the relationship.

I finally saw the 'Fred talks to Wes in the hospital' scene this year. Never saw it in the first run. And it was so incredibly different than I'd expected. She was... nice. It was very clear that she was warning him off because she believed that Angel would kill him if he showed up. And I think that Wesley understood that. I don't think that he ever held it against her. Plus, she brought valuable though painful information -- the prophecy wasn't real. And Wesley wants the truth even when it hurts, we know that about him. Fred does, too.

Plus, she was totally holding back tears at the end, from what I could tell. She hated telling him to stay away. Then, she's the one who keeps suggesting to contact him. She's the one that he will break silence to help.

[inyron.livejournal.com]

I remember watching that arc when it first played out. Shock, at Angel's actions with the pillow, then anger-on-Wes's behalf that the people who had just helped pull a murderous vampire off him were siding with said murderous vampire.

But they all made the decision, not just Fred, and it was good of her to go to the hosptial. Just, seeing that scene, where she makes it clear he's being cut off, and he can't even speak- like I said, in retrospect, it was a good thing to do. But based on my feelings the first time around, I'm not suprised you got a different impression of what the visit entailed.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I remember watching that arc when it first played out. Shock, at Angel's actions with the pillow, then anger-on-Wes's behalf that the people who had just helped pull a murderous vampire off him were siding with said murderous vampire.

But they all made the decision, not just Fred, and it was good of her to go to the hosptial. Just, seeing that scene, where she makes it clear he's being cut off, and he can't even speak- like I said, in retrospect, it was a good thing to do. But based on my feelings the first time around, I'm not suprised you got a different impression of what the visit entailed.

She had the guts to face him in person and tell him not to come around. And yeah, distance definitely dulls the words -- I can very much see Fred's side of things, in part because I know how hard she fights to get him back into the group.

[minim_calibre]

Interesting take; I totally disagree (and watching it real-time, unspoiled, was a gut-punch). I think Fred meant every word of it, not just because of what Angel would do, but because she was that angry (not without reason). It's in line with her later behaviour towards Connor, and lots of other little parts of what make Fred Fred.

The way in which she delivered the information, sweet voice and all, was ruthless and surgical, and a perfect counterpoint to Angel with the pillow.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Interesting take; I totally disagree (and watching it real-time, unspoiled, was a gut-punch). I think Fred meant every word of it, not just because of what Angel would do, but because she was that angry (not without reason). It's in line with her later behaviour towards Connor, and lots of other little parts of what make Fred Fred.

The way in which she delivered the information, sweet voice and all, was ruthless and surgical, and a perfect counterpoint to Angel with the pillow.

I don't doubt that she meant it and was pissed -- Wes acted rashly, without sharing information. I'd be angry, too. But she also makes sure to mention that she's telling him to stay away for his own safety. She was pissed at him in a way that made it clear that she cared.

But yeah, I can easily imagine how incredibly 'ouch' that would be on first viewing. I had all of Season Four and part of Five to distance me from the shock of it.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I finally saw the 'Fred talks to Wes in the hospital' scene this year. Never saw it in the first run. And it was so incredibly different than I'd expected.

Now you see why I had frequent "what ARE people talking about?" reactions when this scene was referred to as Fred being crueller to Wesley than anyone else.

BTW, didn't read your post due to not having seen Origin yet, but wanted to say that yes, Wesley's love for Fred has been portrayed as consistent from Billy onwards. If the viewers read too much fanfiction in which Wes discovers he never loved her/only loved Lilah/only loved Gunn, and expect to find this reading reflected on the actual show, then that's their problem, not ME being inconsistent.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Now you see why I had frequent "what ARE people talking about?" reactions when this scene was referred to as Fred being crueller to Wesley than anyone else.

I do, indeed. Because at least she had the guts to talk to him (not that I'm saying anything negative about Gunn or Cordy. Nope. Just sitting here, innocently)

BTW, didn't read your post due to not having seen Origin yet, but wanted to say that yes, Wesley's love for Fred has been portrayed as consistent from Billy onwards. If the viewers read too much fanfiction in which Wes discovers he never loved her/only loved Lilah/only loved Gunn, and expect to find this reading reflected on the actual show, then that's their problem, not ME being inconsistent.

Word.