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Note to self: People like metaphor.

I mean, I have more to say on the AI crew as parts of Angel (I didn't even mention the Doyle-Cordy-Wesley tango of faith and humanity). Plus, I could go on about how everyone in Buffy is a representation of a part of her. Metaphor is fun, after all. As is the word of the season -- last year's word was 'champion' but this year's word was definitely 'team'. Interesting shift.

Anyway, here's a big wave to the new people. I'm very flattered that you like my style. I don't always post so much, though. Only when I feel inspired.

Current Mood: pleased

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

raveninthewind.livejournal.com

I'd be interested in your analysis of Fred as a character on Angel. Because my enjoyment of the series has been affected by my dislike of her, and on how she affected the other characters. This was apparent in my reaction to the series finale, and I'd like to be able to wrap my head around why Fred is so problematic. I'd like to come to terms with her existence; I don't want to be one of those fans who needs to willfully ignore chunks of canon to like a show.

I realize that there are RL aspects to how ME made decisions about the character arcs of Cordelia and Fred, so it's more than just artistic choice (and personal kinks) on the part of the creator. But Fred is so very Mary Sue, and so very annoying.

From:

butterfly.livejournal.com

Hmm... well, she's different than Cordy, that's certain, but elevated above? I'm not sure that I see that -- of course, I was never Cordelia's biggest fan. Part of why I disliked S3 is that Cordy was treated so much better than she treated other people.

Anyway, please expand, because I can't find the difference if I can't see it and right now I can't.

From:

raveninthewind.livejournal.com

The big one is how their deaths are treated by Angel et al. When Cordelia was in a coma, they got upset, but it was like "out of sight, out of mind" after she came back to warn Angel and then died. When Fred's body is infected by Illyria, the reaction from all the guys was really exaggerated in my view (Spike's melodramatic: "Not this girl, not this day" and "this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it.
The least I can do is give what's left of mine"; Wes said: "And she was better than anyone I've known"--http://www.buffy-vs-angel.com/guide_ang.shtml). I mean, you can fanwank it to mean that Fred's death was just the last straw for a group sick of the loss of their comrades.

I dunno. I try not to hate on any character, no matter how bland or annoying, but it was so hard with Fred. The only episode I actually empathized with her was "Supersymmetry."

From:

butterfly.livejournal.com

I don't know, it seems to me that they must have done a lot of their mourning while Cordy was in that coma. Having her back was a blessing, but I don't think that Wesley, for example, was too shocked when he found out what'd really happened. And Wesley's reaction on losing Fred was so profound because he'd loved her for years and she'd finally chosen him.

Plus, they'd already dealt with losing Cordy.

And Spike had no great attachment to Cordy at all, whereas Fred tried to turn him corporeal again. He was friends with Fred but only had ever encountered Cordy as an enemy before YW.

I have no arguments about Angel's reactions to each death either -- what he railed against with in Fred's death was the apparent meaningless nature of it -- he knew that Cordy's death had had meaning and that she knew it.

Of course, I liked Fred much more than I ever liked Cordelia, so there's that, too.

From:

raveninthewind.livejournal.com

Of course, I liked Fred much more than I ever liked Cordelia

I guess that's the crux--not only did I never like Fred, I think she's one the worst character Joss ever created, a total Mary Sue. I never understood why she went from victim Angel rescued in Pylea to resident indispensible science geek.

Whereas with Cordelia, annoying and shallow as she could be at times, I think her character showed real growth over the first three seasons of Angel. (Let's not talk about the Pylea-Groo and Connor-Jasmine arcs; I thought Joss was on crack to approve those plots.) No matter how lame the Angel/Cordelia storyline got, it was realer to me than than Wes/Fred. I always considered Wesley's infatuation with Fred to be creepy-stalkery, and a sign of his all-too-obvious (and quite serious) Issues. The triangle with Gunn and Fred actually made sense--unrequited interest in a woman he romanticizes meshes with how Wesley's character is presented. I don't deny Wesley had feelings for her, or that Fred didn't care about Wesley as a friend. But to have Fred decide she feels the same made no sense.

And besides, there was so little chemistry between the characters and actors that I never could give the relationship credit.

I guess I'll never "get" Fred's role.

From:

butterfly.livejournal.com

I guess that's the crux--not only did I never like Fred, I think she's one the worst character Joss ever created, a total Mary Sue. I never understood why she went from victim Angel rescued in Pylea to resident indispensible science geek.

Because Joss adores crazy-brilliant (which Fred started out as and Wesley developed into) characters, mostly. The culmination of that obsession was possibly River in Firefly, but he probably still enjoys that kind of character. I thought it made sense that she'd work her hardest to be indispensible -- her big talent is survival, and to accomplish that, she needed to be able to handle quite a few other talents. But her big talent was survival. Her power was not to let them take her, as she put it.

Whereas with Cordelia, annoying and shallow as she could be at times, I think her character showed real growth over the first three seasons of Angel. (Let's not talk about the Pylea-Groo and Connor-Jasmine arcs; I thought Joss was on crack to approve those plots.)

Oh! I can't explain Pylea and Groo (because it's been a bit since I watched the episodes -- once I rewatch, I'll let you know what I think -- well, let lj know, most likely), but I've always thought that the Connor-Jasmine arc was the culmination of the negative side of Cordelia Chase. Jasmine is the most extreme that Cordy could be, in any world (and I'd say the same of Fred and Illyia). I adored the Connor-Jasmine arc. Plus, that was when I fell in love with Fred. I wasn't a fan of her until she reminded me that she was, above all else, a survivor, but that she'd developed into a hero.

No matter how lame the Angel/Cordelia storyline got, it was realer to me than than Wes/Fred. I always considered Wesley's infatuation with Fred to be creepy-stalkery, and a sign of his all-too-obvious (and quite serious) Issues. The triangle with Gunn and Fred actually made sense--unrequited interest in a woman he romanticizes meshes with how Wesley's character is presented. I don't deny Wesley had feelings for her, or that Fred didn't care about Wesley as a friend. But to have Fred decide she feels the same made no sense.

I never bought A/C -- though, in some of my rewatching, it's felt more real, but that's mostly because I know how it ends. Always liked Wesley's feelings for Fred, even before I liked her. I agree about the issues, but I've always felt that was the point -- this is the ultimate tragic love story, where even in death, the lovers aren't reunited. It's twisted and lost and broken, this love, yet for all that, when they did get together, for me, it shined so much the brighter for the darkness.

And Fred's side made sense to me. First, she fell for Angel, because he saved her. Then, she fell for Gunn, who treated her like a girl (I mean that in both good and bad ways). Finally, she fell for Wesley, who always, for all his obsessions, treated her as an equal. And at the end, Illyria loved Wesley again, but this time, with grief and pain and unfulfilled longing. It's a progression of relationships, from child to girl to woman to a step beyond. Fred always moved forward, step by step.