Briefly -- Stargate: Icon and Suspicion

[butterfly]

Daniel is so very pretty. I'd trust him as quickly as Leta (or whatever) did. Definitely. I mean, he has very trustworthy eyes. Plus, a totally trustworthy nipple.

And Jack was so angsty over Daniel first being missing and then trapped behind enemy lines. He snaps at Carter! He questions Teal'c's abilities! I also love how incredibly quickly he caved in at Daniel's request to go in the first place.

I found the cuts interesting. Another mirror of Meridian, which also jumped back and forth in time. I also see from other people's posts that there's a Hundred Days connection, which reminds me that I need to watch that episode.


I love Sheppard. I know that I'm supposed to, but I so do. He's just so...

*waves hand*

Smart and pretty sums it up fairly well. And he's tough.

McKay is also so fun. Fun! I like Teyla and Weir better this week than last week. Ford is vaguely annoying for reasons that I haven't pinned down. Beckett is adorable, as always.

I have much love for the cuteness. And the McKay/Sheppard-ness. "You still seem nervous."

And he's another one of those that taunt the bad guys. I love that.

Comments

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

yes, definitely a hundred days-like.

re: sheppard, I think the exchange between him and the anthropologist was intended to make him seem similar to Jack... which in a sense I think they've been writing him like Jack all along, but that was a bit over the top.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

yes, definitely a hundred days-like.

*puts A Hundred Days next on her 'to watch' list*

sheppard, I think the exchange between him and the anthropologist was intended to make him seem similar to Jack... which in a sense I think they've been writing him like Jack all along, but that was a bit over the top.

Hmm. There's one big difference, though -- Sheppard doesn't play dumb (he hasn't thus far, I think). That's a big O'Neill strategy. Plus, Jack's... Jackness cannot be duplicated. Jack is unique.

Except for the clone. And that robot duplicate.

And the alternate universes.

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

LMAO. Yes, with the duplication.

I don't think Sheppard is meant to be a total Jack clone, but he's been given a lot of Jack snarkiness. The whole bit where he keeps telling Ford not to name things feels very Jack-esque to me, even though there is no specific Jack moment that parallels it. I think it's no mistake that both Jack and Sheppard have made the Ancient technology work, that in the first episode, Sheppard arrived with Jack and then got involved when he sat in the very seat Jack sat in. And then Jack was the one to convince him to go to Atlantis.

BTW? the Atlantis premiere got off the ground fast our of necessity, I suppose, but part of me really wishes that the entire premiere episode had been about getting together the technology and the people and the will to launch the mission, and that we had seen what drove the characters to go to Atlantis, knowing they might never come back. I feel like I lack a sense of what Sheppard left behind. We saw Weir say goodbye to someone with a tape, I don't think we really saw anyone else do it. It strikes me as rather like Jack of the movie on the first trip through the stargate to Abydos. Yeah, Daniel promised he could get them back, but Jack a) thought he was full of shit and b) expected he might have to stay and nuke something anyway and c) didn't care. We know why Jack was willing to walk away from everything. Why was Sheppard? Or McKay? Or Beckett? Or even Weir? Or the Czech guy? Or Ford? Or you take my point, yes?

Not that I think Sheppard's going through a divorce and his kid died, or even that he's in a sever depression--it's more a case of multiple paths bringing people to the same point. Something in Sheppard's life or personality made him give it all up to go to Atlantis in the same way that Jack's history made him willing to give it all up to go through the Stargate for the first time.

Another thing with that, the bit from the Atlantis premiere when Daniel was ready to go grab a pack and jump in after them if Jack would let him. The reason Daniel was at that place 9 years ago was that his only living relative was in a loony bin, no one believed his theories, he had no real home or sense of community on Earth--and an incredible curiosity about the beyond. Doesn't Daniel have a sense of community with the SGC now? Is his curiosity more powerful than that sense of community, or did he also (again) have an arrogant certainty that he'd be able to make the gate on the other side work and bring them back? Or has Daniel lost something along the way that's taken him back to that sense of isolation? Has something changed between him and Jack and Sam and Teal'c? Did his Ascension screw things up? His amnesia afterwards? Something earlier? Something else? Did Janet's death and Jack's close encounter with a block of ice and Hammond's retirement in quick succession undercut his sense of family at the SGC to the point where he subconsciously wanted to get out before he lost anyone else?

...someone should write fic about that. And Sheppard's history.

Hey, I know. Someone could start an Atlantis character history challenge where people adopted characters and explained why they were willing to go to Atlantis.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think it's no mistake that both Jack and Sheppard have made the Ancient technology work, that in the first episode, Sheppard arrived with Jack and then got involved when he sat in the very seat Jack sat in. And then Jack was the one to convince him to go to Atlantis.

Yes, it's definitely a connection and parallel that's meant to be seen.

Yeah, Daniel promised he could get them back, but Jack a) thought he was full of shit and b) expected he might have to stay and nuke something anyway and c) didn't care. We know why Jack was willing to walk away from everything. Why was Sheppard? Or McKay? Or Beckett? Or even Weir? Or the Czech guy? Or Ford? Or you take my point, yes?

Didn't we see Sheppard off by himself, flipping a coin? And McKay had a cat.

Another thing with that, the bit from the Atlantis premiere when Daniel was ready to go grab a pack and jump in after them if Jack would let him. The reason Daniel was at that place 9 years ago was that his only living relative was in a loony bin, no one believed his theories, he had no real home or sense of community on Earth--and an incredible curiosity about the beyond.

That last bit is vital. He loved Sha're. He'd truly became a part of the Abydos community. And that didn't stop him from uncovering the gate again and trying it out (he mentions in the pilot that none of the addresses that he's tried have worked -- his set-up in the Abydos gateroom looked pretty cozy, too, so it's possible that he was actually living there full-time).

Doesn't Daniel have a sense of community with the SGC now? Is his curiosity more powerful than that sense of community, or did he also (again) have an arrogant certainty that he'd be able to make the gate on the other side work and bring them back?

Honestly, I think probably both. Daniel is arrogant and he probably does believe that he'd be the person mostly likely to find a way to make the Atlantis Stargate work. Also, I do believe that his curiosity, his drive, his thirst for knowledge is more powerful than his sense of community. Plus, when you consider that archeology is also the thing that connects him to his parents and it's what took them away from him... Daniel's got an awful lot of issues and he's far too good at saying 'good-bye'.

Or has Daniel lost something along the way that's taken him back to that sense of isolation? Has something changed between him and Jack and Sam and Teal'c? Did his Ascension screw things up?

Well, I think that he did feel that isolation all through seasons four and five. Ascension was a symptom, not a cause.

Something earlier? Something else? Did Janet's death and Jack's close encounter with a block of ice and Hammond's retirement in quick succession undercut his sense of family at the SGC to the point where he subconsciously wanted to get out before he lost anyone else?

Sadly, Daniel's sense of family was pretty much built by Jack and the SGC. He had eight years with his parents, then another eight with either a succession of foster families or just one that never adopted him (not sure how the system works, myself). Is it canon or fanon that he went to college at sixteen? But then he had school and he built himself a system of associates... who all ending up abandoning him when he dared to suggest that the accepted reasoning was wrong (as has happened several times in scientific and philosophical history). He had a year with Sha're.

He's known Jack for over eight years now. Jack's his connection. Jack's the one who either does or does not let him go (And Rising immediately brought to mind Meridian -- in Rising, Jack says "No", says "I need him here". He's willing to admit these things now, when he couldn't before). He's willing to let Jack be his anchor to the earth.

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

Is it canon or fanon that he went to college at sixteen?

Show-wise it's fanon; all we know for sure is that he had at least one doctorate by the age of 30 (which is when we met him in the movie). It's possible the college-at-sixteen thing comes out of the movie novelization, though; occasionally people pick things up from there.

Daniel is so very pretty. I'd trust him as quickly as Leta (or whatever) did. Definitely. I mean, he has very trustworthy eyes. Plus, a totally trustworthy nipple.

The scary thing is just how much of Earth's interplanetary diplomacy relies on two things: This and the fact that the Asgard--or more specifically, Thor--think Jack is really, really cool.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

The scary thing is just how much of Earth's interplanetary diplomacy relies on two things: This and the fact that the Asgard--or more specifically, Thor--think Jack is really, really cool.

Hee. So true. Daniel's hotness and Jack's coolness are what often get us help. Ah, and Sam's nepoti... connection with her father.

[thefakeheadline.livejournal.com]

Didn't we see Sheppard off by himself, flipping a coin? And McKay had a cat.

Yup to both - I'm not sure if the person McKay was handing the cat off to was supposed to be a girlfriend or just a neighbor. And they showed Ford saying goodbye to his parents (in a metropolitan area, I'd think, since he rode off in a taxi) and Beckett having a goodbye dinner with his mom. This doesn't go into *why* they were willing to go, of course, but it was a nice device to show the characters' backgrounds without devoting too much screentime to it.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

The cat thing was so adorable. That may be when McKay utterly melted my heart. Because. Cat!

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Well, I think that he did feel that isolation all through seasons four and five. Ascension was a symptom, not a cause.

Oh, shag, now I'm thinking of Daniel-As-Buffy. NOOOOO!!!

who all ending up abandoning him when he dared to suggest that the accepted reasoning was wrong (as has happened several times in scientific and philosophical history). He had a year with Sha're.

See, his idea that the pyramids ain't tombs... shouldn't be enough to make everyone walk out. And anything much more than that is sheer batshit insanity, really.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, shag, now I'm thinking of Daniel-As-Buffy.

What, just now? I've been pondering the connection since I first heard that Daniel is Sir Dies-a-lot.

See, his idea that the pyramids ain't tombs... shouldn't be enough to make everyone walk out. And anything much more than that is sheer batshit insanity, really.

I blame that heckler. The dude who was all, "Oh, aliens did it, huh." Then again, it could be possible that those people who went to the... thingy were more akin to people who rubberneck next to a wreck -- they were just watching the crash and burn.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

What, just now? I've been pondering the connection since I first heard that Daniel is Sir Dies-a-lot.

Oh, not the dying. All the negative things. I can totally see it now. Gah.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, not the dying. All the negative things. I can totally see it now.

The things about them that I love and you hate? They actually do have quite a bit in common (apart from the dying).

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Word yo. I mean, I see arrogance, blindness, a bit of... lip-service ethics. A martyr-complex coupled with a few flip phrases about the value of life. Half-hearted pacifism that buckles ohhhhh so easily. A bit of emotional manipulation. Selfishness. An unwillingness to bend.


And, umm, you see... good stuff. Yay, you!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

All about the point of view.

I definitely see a touch of arrogance at times, but more often, both of them show a well-deserved confidence that only rarely slips over the edge.

The pacifism/martyrdom/ethical question is an interesting one, because that's where I love them the most and where I see the most congruence. Neither of them are pacifists. Daniel prefers to use words first, but he's never acted as though he didn't find violence an option at all. Buffy is definitely not a pacifist, though I believe that she wishes that she didn't have to use violence so much. I don't see either of them pretending to be pacifist, either. Daniel says in Children of the Gods that he doesn't think that they should be shooting the first people that they see on a new planet -- that's not pacifism, it's common sense. And then there's the vat of infant Goa'uld that he murders in Bloodlines and I don't think that he at all regretted doing that.

And where you see rigidity, I see a strong moral center. Where you see selfishness, I see people wanting to have some measure of happiness. Where you see emotional manipulation, I see unintentional inspiration.

Like you said. Good things.

Plus? I think that both of them are very pretty.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

The killing thing is a bit weird, really, because she's killing things that she's decided don't matter and Daniel's killing... humans.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

She's not the one who decided.

Even with that, she mostly kills a) vampires/demons that are actively attacking people or b) vampires that have just risen. She doesn't just randomly kill. And she's had a moral crisis or two over the whole thing ("I guess the Slayer is just a killer after all." The Gift).

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

The thing about the Buffyverse on that one is that AtS went with the route of demons as people in a different skin, which BTVS pretty much stuck with the idea that they're irredeemably evil. I mean, you can even make an argument that the Watcher'n'Slayer moral worldview is specifically designed to lessen the guilt of killing that which is not as we are.I mean, just the fact that no one (as I recall) ever sits down and goes "You know, we kill demons... but we don't always check if they're evil first."

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, they kinda do. They tend to assume that if a demon is actually attacking a person, it's evil and if it's not, it gets the benefit of the doubt. Vampires pretty much always get knocked off, but they're pretty much always killing. And even there, Buffy has made exceptions (Spike, Harmony, Angel, and Dru all pop up in my mind). But she's never, say, gone into Willie's bar to kill all the demons that congregate there.

And even on Angel, demons are mostly evil. It's the good ones that take them by surprise.

[spherissa.livejournal.com]

~a totally trustworthy nipple~

i love that heh

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, yes. Daniel.

We're all shallow at times, I think.

[spherissa.livejournal.com]

no no no his nipple is spiritual

well ok so it's shallow

but at least it's good taste
;-)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Daniel is so very pretty. I'd trust him as quickly as Leta (or whatever) did.

I'd... get the overwhelming urge to slap him. (But, yo, I like Faith. :P )

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

And I've always had this urge to smack her (luckily, Buffy took care of that for me).

I actually don't dislike Faith, except that I wish that she'd actually admit to/realize that hey, maybe the attempted rape and murder was actually a bad thing and not something that she should be joking about. She got that what she did to Buffy was bad, but she never seemed to register about Xander.