(no subject)

[butterfly]

Still have the rest of VividCon to write up (I have notes for every vidshow that I managed to see, so, yeah, there's quite a bit more), but I've been distracted by (what else?) Stargate SG-1, which is such a shiny show.

I'm working today, but I have tomorrow off and currently have no plans, so I'll be working much on fannish and personal things on Wednesday.

In boniblithe's recent entry, you can find links to some vids from the premieres that are already up. I haven't gotten to it yet on my list, but I'd just like to recommend the vid for The Others, at least if you've seen the movie. Not sure it spoils the biggest thing (since I, well, already knew), but it spoils one of the very big things. It's a beautiful vid, though.

And this is random and Angel-related, but Lilah was not Wesley's healthiest relationship. Anyone else remember a very pretty woman named Virginia? With whom Wesley got together with and eventually parted from because they both realized that she couldn't take the violence of his lifestyle (and, give her points, consider where it took him)? And how very mature both sides were about the dissolution of their relationship? And the sweetness of the relationship and the cuteness with which it started? Did the poor woman fall into a black hole?

Comments

Part One: Virginia

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

See, I never much liked Wesley's relationship with Virginia. I didn't hate it or anything, it just seemed really...shallow to me.

Well, I can see that point of view, but I don't see that Lilah and Wesley started any more deeply. Just because their sex was fucked up and brought on by depression doesn't mean that it wasn't essentially shallow when it started. Wesley used her and she used him and it became something else over time.

Like it was more about doing fun activities than sharing inner thoughts, that they put up with each other's priorities but never really connected and accepted each other. To me they were just dates, they weren't partners.

Right, I liked them because they weren't Doom and Gloom. They acted like a casually dating couple. It was refreshing for me.

(Never seeing any chemistry between them might have been a factor there too, along with the fact that they met when Wesley was playing a false role.)

Whether or not each person sees the chemistry always seems to be a huge factor. I thought they were hot together and liked the way that Wesley revealed more of who he could be because of the false role that he played.

And to me the way it ended just proved that point -- she couldn't handle his most fundamental truths/needs/mission, what made him who he was.

Well, it wasn't the demons and such that she couldn't handle, it was the bullet. It was a danger that she hadn't expected him to face. And yeah, after that, Wesley became Gun Man but at that point, guns were not a true essential part of him.

To me that wasn't a healthier relationship for Wes than Lilah, because it was barely a relationship at all, and Wesley overcoming his diffidence to show his true self was the deal breaker. That ought to make a healthy relationship stronger, not end it.

I guess that a lot of it also depends on why you see them breaking up. I don't think it was seeing 'his true self' that put her off, she just couldn't take the blood and danger and the constant fear of losing him. That's not Wesley's true self, just where he ended up going.

To me, a healthy relationship is one that gives you what you need and supports you in doing what you believe is right. Virginia couldn't give Wesley what he needed -- encouragement of his ripening self-confidence and patience with his risk taking. And she wasn't capable of supporting him in doing what he believed was right either, not if it put him in danger and her in worry.

He was shot! He almost died. She knew that she couldn't take that, but she also knew better than to ask him to walk away from it. If Wesley hadn't gone in the direction that he had, I think that they could have been happy. But they both made choices that made a relationship untenable. Virginia was Wesley's biggest cheerleader during their time together. She honestly thought that he was amazing and talented and accomplished enough to do anything that he wanted.

Re: Part One: Virginia

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Just because their sex was fucked up and brought on by depression doesn't mean that it wasn't essentially shallow when it started.

I'm not saying it wasn't. What I'm saying is that it became something else over time. And I never, ever saw Virginia and Wesley do that, although in the breakup scene they talked as though they had.

Right, I liked them because they weren't Doom and Gloom. They acted like a casually dating couple. It was refreshing for me.

Gotcha. Maybe the difference here is that I don't usually do casual dating, and even in my own real life I don't find it interesting enough to pay attention to for long.

And since the main reason I watch TV is to experience more strong, life changing events than I can reasonably have on my own, to me watching casual dating is like watching the Wesley has a sandwich and takes a nap show. I'm happy enough that they show casual dating from time to time, for the sake of realism, but I'm certainly not emotionally invested in it beyond that.

Well, it wasn't the demons and such that she couldn't handle, it was the bullet. It was a danger that she hadn't expected him to face.

That so doesn't seem like a separate issue to me. Risk of death = risk of death. I'm not talking about guns being a fundamental part of Wesley, I'm talking about putting his life on the line for the good fight being a fundamental part of Wesley. If you can't handle the bullet, then to me that says you never really understood the reality that a spell or a crossbow could do the same thing. Not to mention the fact that anyone who thinks modern day demons/vampires/witches/whatever will never use guns is not, to me, being very realistic.

she just couldn't take the blood and danger and the constant fear of losing him. That's not Wesley's true self, just where he ended up going.

To me it is his true self. The one thing he wouldn't give up on, despite being dismissed by the Scoobies and fired by the Watchers, Angel, and Angel again. He'll go it alone if he has to, he'll sacrifice allies if he has to, he'll sacrifice himself if he has to, but he won't give up on this fight.

So I don't think of that as just where he happened to end up. I think all roads lead to this for Wesley. If Angel hadn't taken him in I truly believe the Rogue Demon Hunter would be out there somewhere getting shot, spelled, and walloped on a regular basis.

He was shot! He almost died. She knew that she couldn't take that, but she also knew better than to ask him to walk away from it. If Wesley hadn't gone in the direction that he had, I think that they could have been happy.

If Wesley hadn't gone in the direction that he had, to me he wouldn't be Wesley any more. It would be like Angel taking the humanity to eat chocolate with Buffy and letting the mission go hang. And in the long run, I don't think he could be happy that way. I think he'd be making himself so much less to keep safe for her sake *shudder*.

relationship untenable. Virginia was Wesley's biggest cheerleader during their time together. She honestly thought that he was amazing and talented and accomplished enough to do anything that he wanted.

Yes, she was. But if she doesn't get, in her gut, why what he wants to do with it is this, and why it's worth it -- well, she was smart to leave. But I wouldn't call it healthy any more than I'd call it healthy for a writer to be in a relationship with someone who get why she has to waste all that time typing, or a doctor with someone who can't stand the risk of infection. Not everyone needs a mission, but anyone who has one needs a partner who believes in it, not just in him.

Re: Part One: Virginia

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying it wasn't. What I'm saying is that it became something else over time. And I never, ever saw Virginia and Wesley do that, although in the breakup scene they talked as though they had.

Well, I think part of the problem in the breakup scene was that Virginia realized just how much she did care about Wesley, because seeing him hurt was hurting her so much. And that wasn't a feeling that she was used to.

That so doesn't seem like a separate issue to me. Risk of death = risk of death. I'm not talking about guns being a fundamental part of Wesley, I'm talking about putting his life on the line for the good fight being a fundamental part of Wesley. If you can't handle the bullet, then to me that says you never really understood the reality that a spell or a crossbow could do the same thing. Not to mention the fact that anyone who thinks modern day demons/vampires/witches/whatever will never use guns is not, to me, being very realistic.

And that's part of why they didn't work out -- because Virginia was very sheltered and young at heart, despite everything. It wasn't until the bullet that she truly understood the life and death nature of his work -- until then, she knew the melodramatic nature of it, but only that.


To me it is his true self. The one thing he wouldn't give up on, despite being dismissed by the Scoobies and fired by the Watchers, Angel, and Angel again. He'll go it alone if he has to, he'll sacrifice allies if he has to, he'll sacrifice himself if he has to, but he won't give up on this fight.

So I don't think of that as just where he happened to end up. I think all roads lead to this for Wesley. If Angel hadn't taken him in I truly believe the Rogue Demon Hunter would be out there somewhere getting shot, spelled, and walloped on a regular basis.

Part of the reason that I don't see that is because I do see Angel and AtS being what unlocked Wesley's confidence and abilities. Without them, he wouldn't have ended up that way, because he's still emotionally be the very young man that we knew in BtVS and the beginning of AtS. He seemed to be trapped into a state of clumsy ineptitude because of his father and without Angel or someone like him, I can't see Wesley growing past that.

If Wesley hadn't gone in the direction that he had, to me he wouldn't be Wesley any more. It would be like Angel taking the humanity to eat chocolate with Buffy and letting the mission go hang. And in the long run, I don't think he could be happy that way. I think he'd be making himself so much less to keep safe for her sake *shudder*.

Hmm, I was thinking less on the lines of 'what if Wesley were a different person' and more on the lines of 'what if circumstances had been different'. In the given case scenario that we had, no, I don't think that Wesley could have ended other than dead on a floor, empty and broken. But his given personality didn't guarantee that end, it was his personality combined with the situation.

Yes, she was. But if she doesn't get, in her gut, why what he wants to do with it is this, and why it's worth it -- well, she was smart to leave. But I wouldn't call it healthy any more than I'd call it healthy for a writer to be in a relationship with someone who get why she has to waste all that time typing, or a doctor with someone who can't stand the risk of infection. Not everyone needs a mission, but anyone who has one needs a partner who believes in it, not just in him.

I think that someone can understand the importance and enormity of what a person has taken on themselves without being willing or able to take on that burden themselves. I'd actually parallel Wes/Virginia to Angel/Nina. Yeah, it meant that they ended up being ill-suited to each other, but it doesn't mean that the relationship wasn't worth attempting or that they didn't truly care. If Wesley hadn't cared for her, he wouldn't have made the out so easy for her.

Re: Part One: Virginia

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Ah! For the first time, I get what you're saying about Wes -- that he needed Angel to unlock that about him.

My assumption was that sooner or later his incompetance and the attendant insecurity would have worn off on its own, if he lived that long.

I still actually think that. He might well have ended up unable to trust or communicate or work with anyone, without Angel, but I don't think he would still have been bumbling after 10 years of practice. Still, I can see why you would think the opposite.

I agree, you don't have to take that burden on yourself. Virginia didn't need to have Wesley's mission. I'm not saying a doctor should only marry a doctor. I am saying a healthy relationship for a doctor would be with someone who not only put up with their SO having such a burden but thought it was worth while.

Virginia didn't even put up with Wesley's, much less be proud and supportive of it, not once she properly understood the implications. Hence the breakup, and hence why I don't consider that a healthy relationship for him. Or for her.

I never said he didn't care. I didn't believe he did care deeply, but that was about how they were together, and how he was afterwards, not because of this problem. I never said it wasn't worth attempting, either. I said it was unhealthy for Wes, which by me is a separate issue.

*nods* I definitely see the parallel. But then, I've got no big love for Angel/Nina either for many of the same reasons. It's the same "meh, it's fine, good for the realism, that was a cute line, are we done yet?" reaction.