(no subject)
Oct. 2nd, 2004 12:48 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
butterflySo, I bought the Apocalypse West 2002 dvd for the Comedy Tonight vid, but the vids that I've been rewatching are the Stargate ones (Ever Since the World Began is a sweet team vid, Settling is a neat Sam&Jolinear vid, and Playing with the Big Boys is the SGC vs the Goa'uld and it kicks ass). Stargate is oddly frustrating, because I do think that it's fascinating and deep and could be explored and... whenever it's actually on, I get all distracted by Daniel. And the way that the slashiness of the show leaps out at me, to the extent of not really being able to read the show outside it, while at the same time really enjoying reading gen fanfic... it's odd.
I've been visiting a Stargate forum and it's fascinating how often they seem to mention that they know that 'the characters aren't gay' in a way that I don't notice so much in other shows. It's this odd defensiveness, possibly borne out of what seems to be the huge issue in SG-1 fandom -- slash vs ship (which is again, such an odd way for me to see it, as I think of slash pairings as 'ships). Or it could just be that forum. I'm not that incredibly well-versed in SG-1 fandom.
Anyway, It's odd to me because I'm used to fandoms where, when 'shipping slash pairings, I do read the characters as gay (or, more commonly, bisexual). In the Jossverse, it was a tangible possibility, but even when I explored other fandoms, that possessiveness existed. I see the ending of due South as a true happy ending, complete with a fulfilled romantic pairing. It's not something that only exists when I have my 'slash goggles' on. (Because dude, Fraser and Kowalski were totally doing it. "Breathing kinda hard there.") With everything that I've seen so far in Stargate, I do see the Jack/Daniel interplay as different than 'just friends' or even 'best friends'. Now, they could live until Daniel's also a grumpy old man and never have sex, but the idea of sex is almost incidental in my vision of their relationship anyway. There's just a level of completion when Jack and Daniel are together that just doesn't happen with anyone else. They finish sentences and share ideas and words. They've adjusted and changed because of each other, each taking on some of the other's traits. They can communicate emotional exchanges using glances and names (Abyss, when Jack conveys his suicidal thoughts to Daniel witout at first saying as much). They've been through the same arguments so many times that they use shorthand and skip to the end (Icon, where they have the shortest discussion about whether Daniel should go, because they already know the ending).
It really helps that the actors have tons of chemistry together. Seriously, though, they've been through all the ups and downs of a long-term relationship. They got to know each other, had a honeymoon period, had rough times, separated, and then got back together. I like watching the show because of Daniel and his sizzle and sparkle with Jack. That's my favorite part, though I adore the fake mythology and the gods=aliens premise.
With Fraser and Kowalski though, I'm in it for lots and lots of really hot, intense sex. And emotional contact, of course, but I need the sex, too, yo.
I've been visiting a Stargate forum and it's fascinating how often they seem to mention that they know that 'the characters aren't gay' in a way that I don't notice so much in other shows. It's this odd defensiveness, possibly borne out of what seems to be the huge issue in SG-1 fandom -- slash vs ship (which is again, such an odd way for me to see it, as I think of slash pairings as 'ships). Or it could just be that forum. I'm not that incredibly well-versed in SG-1 fandom.
Anyway, It's odd to me because I'm used to fandoms where, when 'shipping slash pairings, I do read the characters as gay (or, more commonly, bisexual). In the Jossverse, it was a tangible possibility, but even when I explored other fandoms, that possessiveness existed. I see the ending of due South as a true happy ending, complete with a fulfilled romantic pairing. It's not something that only exists when I have my 'slash goggles' on. (Because dude, Fraser and Kowalski were totally doing it. "Breathing kinda hard there.") With everything that I've seen so far in Stargate, I do see the Jack/Daniel interplay as different than 'just friends' or even 'best friends'. Now, they could live until Daniel's also a grumpy old man and never have sex, but the idea of sex is almost incidental in my vision of their relationship anyway. There's just a level of completion when Jack and Daniel are together that just doesn't happen with anyone else. They finish sentences and share ideas and words. They've adjusted and changed because of each other, each taking on some of the other's traits. They can communicate emotional exchanges using glances and names (Abyss, when Jack conveys his suicidal thoughts to Daniel witout at first saying as much). They've been through the same arguments so many times that they use shorthand and skip to the end (Icon, where they have the shortest discussion about whether Daniel should go, because they already know the ending).
It really helps that the actors have tons of chemistry together. Seriously, though, they've been through all the ups and downs of a long-term relationship. They got to know each other, had a honeymoon period, had rough times, separated, and then got back together. I like watching the show because of Daniel and his sizzle and sparkle with Jack. That's my favorite part, though I adore the fake mythology and the gods=aliens premise.
With Fraser and Kowalski though, I'm in it for lots and lots of really hot, intense sex. And emotional contact, of course, but I need the sex, too, yo.
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(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-02 08:52 am (UTC)Nope, not just that forum I think.
The problem compared to other fandoms is this: both Jack and slash have canon het relationships (Sarah, Share, Laira, another Sarah etc.)
They both (but especially Jack), live in a rather homophobic world. They are both very macho in their own way. They both had women interested in them in canon, so it's not like they don't have a choice.
Everythign about them says "Not gay".
And then you look at them, and Jack is clearly in love with Daniel, and Daniel is clearly attracted to Jack, and everything about them just screams "We are so doing it!".
Drives the shippers crazy. That's why they have to tell each other and whomever else wants to listen that they are "Not gay", as often as they do. They hope that it becomes true if they say it often enough.
I really feel sorry for the shippers.
*pets her shiny gay OTP*
(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-02 12:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-02 02:56 pm (UTC)Don't we all? *g* And I started off as Jack-distracted...
as I think of slash pairings as 'ships
You were wandering through a het world, weren't you? Because I think that's where the freaky semantics come in. (I'm pretty sure you'll see it happening in every het orientated corner of fandom.)
Do you mind my asking which SG forum? I've been sticking to the slash places I've found, but I'd love to explore.
but the idea of sex is almost incidental in my vision of their relationship anyway
Yes! Their love is a like a tangible, highly visible thing. I watch the show and say, "They love each other" but I'm not necessarily saying, "They're sleeping together." It's just love and I'll take it any way I can get it.
I'm not that incredibly well-versed in SG-1 fandom.
Neither am I. SG fandom is weirdly fragmented; it's like someone shattered a mirror and each shard you stumble across reflects a different bit of fandom. Well, that's my experience.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-02 06:23 pm (UTC)And the fact that the writers, in season four, marginalized the Daniel/Jack friendship for the Sam/Jack 'UST' puts those relationships in direct conflict. Which only makes the Daniel/Jack 'ship feel textual, because it's being placed in contrast with a relationship that is clearly meant to be romantic.
Like, on Smallville, they tried to counteract the gayness of Clark giving Lex CPR in the first episode by having him give Lana CPR -- by all that did was romanticize CPR, making Clark's earlier moment with Lex even slashier.
If TPTB on SG don't like slash, then they should not have set a slashy relationship up in conflict with a het one, because it legitimises the slash reading. If it weren't competition, they wouldn't feel the need to slam it down. Thus, slamming it down makes it real, textual competition.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-02 06:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-10-02 06:29 pm (UTC)Well, I checked out that place with the reviews. Gateworld? Which apparently used to be biased against Daniel. Don't remember where I read that. Hmm. There are slash forums out there? I'd love to check them out.
Yes! Their love is a like a tangible, highly visible thing. I watch the show and say, "They love each other" but I'm not necessarily saying, "They're sleeping together." It's just love and I'll take it any way I can get it.
*sigh*
They really do. They have admiration and respect and teasing and happiness and peace. It took Daniel's ascension to get that last piece in place, which I'm thrilled about. Daniel, and thus their relationship, is in a much stronger place in season eight (I tend to put a lot of season seven into the 'dude, guy is back from the dead, of course Jack's afraid to care again. He's probably terrified that Daniel'll die if he lets himself care, poor guy' camp).
*waves*
Date: 2004-10-19 09:41 pm (UTC)Ever Since the World Began is a sweet team vid,
We love our
Settling is a neat Sam&Jolinear vid, and Playing with the Big Boys is the SGC vs the Goa'uld and it kicks ass).
You are a lovely, lovely person, and my Tuesday is vastly improved for it. *beam* (And
Also? This is the one of the sharpest summaries of the appeal of J/D I've ever seen.
Re: *waves*
Date: 2004-10-21 08:09 am (UTC)Coolness. The internet is so cool.
We love our neonhummingbird. *g* I really never get tired of that one.
Great, great vid.
You are a lovely, lovely person, and my Tuesday is vastly improved for it. *beam* (And butterflykiki gets all the credit for 180 in the middle that makes "Playing" work. Otherwise it would have been just an amorphous bit of silliness that arose from me listening to too much Stephen Schwartz music in the car.)
It's brilliant, and I just adore it and the way it echoes what happens in the song in the movie, where the singers are clearly shown to be frauds. Wonderful vid.
Also? This is the one of the sharpest summaries of the appeal of J/D I've ever seen.
Thank you. I do adore them. The push-pull, the way they argue and yet can also almost mind-meld at moments. Love them.
Re: *waves*
Date: 2004-10-21 02:16 pm (UTC)*beam* Thank you!
Although my favorite thing about the sequence in the movie is that the whiz-bang distracts everyone so that they don't notice Moses' staff/serpent eating both of theirs -- even we only see the shadow of it. One of many nice touches that managed to make sense of things that, even as a little kid, bugged me about Exodus, but without changing what actually happened. Just giving some believable reasons for the Egyptians to behave as they did.
Which is not entirely unlike what SG-1 encounters pretty frequently. Though they tend more often to be successful in exposing the "gods" as frauds... ;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-03-15 07:39 am (UTC)I love love love your description of Jack and Daniel's relationship.They got to know each other, had a honeymoon period, had rough times, separated, and then got back together. This is honestly the best description of their relationship I've read to this point. It's like when your old math teacher wrote the answer to a question you couldn't get on the board, and suddenly the whole process makes sense. Did I mention I love it?
I think the thing that makes J/D so strong in a show where the het relationships are pretty prominent is the way the characters really do give off a 'long-term relationship' vibe, different from the slash vibes in some other shows (for me it was the x-files. Mulder and Krycek had that vibe where it looked like they were two seconds away from jumping each other's bones, damn if they were in Skinner's office). This seems to be so much less about the physical and more about the personalities, which always seem to make the longest-lasting and most satisfying relationships anyway ('cause eventually someone's hip is going to give out and then the sex is done and you'll be forced to talk to one another).
all of which I think you said :)
(no subject)
Date: 2005-03-15 07:52 pm (UTC)Aw. Thank you.
This seems to be so much less about the physical and more about the personalities, which always seem to make the longest-lasting and most satisfying relationships anyway ('cause eventually someone's hip is going to give out and then the sex is done and you'll be forced to talk to one another).
Exactly. They mesh as people. They really do understand each other, on this deeper level, starting way back in the movie. They can just connect. It's a beautiful thing.