Edges and Cliffs: Women in Media

[butterfly]

So, I'm rather annoyed by the fact that I just don't like Sam (from Stargate: SG-1) all that much. I want to like her. She's the only female regular on the show. She's strong. She's smart.

But most of the time, I just don't like her. It's not like I am with Teal'c, wherein I don't think of him much when he's not around but do actively like him when he is onscreen.

I've been trying to pinpoint what it is that bugs me. And I think that it may be lack of consequences and lack of anger. The world of Stargate hurts her less than the rest of the characters. In Avenger 2.0, Felger says that even her mistakes are perfect. Now, whether or not this is true is not the issue. What bugs me is that everyone on the show that we are supposed to respect treats it as true.

I adore Buffy, because Buffy is strong and wonderful and intuitive, and gets called on her flaws. Willow tends to annoy me (particularly in the first six seasons) for the same reason that Sam does -- because she gets out of her mistakes. Nothing is ever really Willow's fault. I don't think that she ever faces up to anything that she's done wrong until season seven. She wallpapers over it with smiles and cookies.

So, what does that mean? Do I want female characters to be humble? Not necessarily. Buffy isn't anything like humble and I love her. Chiana is a complete brat at times and she's my favorite character on Farscape, topping John by a fair amount.

This is definitely not limited to female characters -- I like characters who yearn and try. I don't particularly care if they succeed or fail, I will love them either way. I just want to see passion.

On Angel, Cordelia was always so very arrogant. That's probably why I liked her much more as a Buffy-shadow on BtVS than as female lead. Used as a foil, her arrogance could be charming. When placed into lead position, it grew irritating.

In a direct contrast, I've always loved Joey Potter (Dawson's Creek), yet dislike Lana Lang (Smallville). They're both half-orphan (mother dead, not raised by father but by related female) brunettes adored by most males who show up on their respective shows, so why like one and not the other? For me, it was because Joey Potter felt realistic in a way that Lana didn't. Lana shifted to match every story, whereas in a similar situation, Joey often didn't fit. Because of her history, she didn't always rub along the right way. She had sharp edges.

That's actually something that most of the women that I like have in common -- sharp edges.

I also want realism in a situation. Lana Lang is always treated as the sympathetic character, no matter what. I don't like people who are always the sympathetic character. I want someone who pisses off at least one other sympathetic character. Who I will probably then 'ship them with (see: Buffy/Xander, Joey/Pacey, Jack/Daniel, etc). Sam doesn't piss people off enough. If she did, I'd probably like her a lot more.

On the other hand, I have no real idea why I have no affection for Aeryn Sun.

Comments

[girliejones.livejournal.com]

Joey versus Lana is easy I think and probably why I don't feel affection towards Sam. Joey is flawed and uncomfortable in a way that Lana is perfect. Lana (And I think Sam) lacks passion - they're both very cold. Its much easier to embrace a character who is honest in their imperfections; you can see yourself in them more.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Right. They aren't warm characters. For all her imperfections, Joey is a very opinionated character, which I like.

[blackholedebris.livejournal.com]

I'm stunned that you don't like Aeryn.

Joey could be fairly annoying at times, but not anymore annoying than most of the cast of Dawson's Creek. I liked her best when she wasn't pining over Dawson (ew), and when she was saying things like, "Let's just all remain calm", when she was trying to prevent Dawson and Pacey from going at each other's throats. I thought she was amazing in that ep where the guy who tried to mug her was in the hospital dying and he wanted to speak with her.

I thought Cordy was great when she was verbally sparring with Xander on BtVS. I mourn that 'ship. She was often less appealing on Angel. I particularly got annoyed when she slept with Connor and then told him it couldn't happen again because it was only supposed to be an end-of-the-world-type thing.

I've never been a Willow fan. I thought she was weak and blubbery and pathetic pre-magic, and post-magic she was just plain wrong.

Lana's just lame. I like Sam, epecially her interactions with Daniel as of late. But she has annoyed me at times and she definitely isn't my favorite.

I like Chiana also, but every time she exhibits unrequited feelings towards John, I get sad.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I'm stunned that you don't like Aeryn.

We just don't click. I don't really get it. I saw the pilot episode first and beforehand, if you'd described her character to me, I probably would have expected to like her. I saw a good four or five episodes with Aeryn before I ever saw Chiana (best of S1 set), but I liked Chiana in her (very) brief appearance in A Human Reaction and totally fell for her in the end of season arc.

I tried to explain it once by saying that... it's very hard for me to see Aeryn in a non-John context. And I don't particularly like the John/Aeryn 'ship. It hits all the wrong buttons. I don't even know if I can articulate the buttons that it hits, just that it's always the least appealing part of any given episode for me and a bit part of why I didn't rent Farscape for so long. And John/Aeryn is so damn pervasive in Farscape fanon and canon.

I thought Cordy was great when she was verbally sparring with Xander on BtVS. I mourn that 'ship. She was often less appealing on Angel. I particularly got annoyed when she slept with Connor and then told him it couldn't happen again because it was only supposed to be an end-of-the-world-type thing.

Well, she was evil then. I actually liked her a better in four than in three, because at least evil Cordelia wasn't beloved by one and all.

I've never been a Willow fan. I thought she was weak and blubbery and pathetic pre-magic, and post-magic she was just plain wrong.

Passive-aggressive and hypocritical on her good days. Liked her better in S7, though.

Lana's just lame. I like Sam, epecially her interactions with Daniel as of late. But she has annoyed me at times and she definitely isn't my favorite.

Well, I like Sam better with Daniel partly because Michael Shanks is one of those actors that seems to infuse everyone with extra energy -- like Michael Rosenbaum (Lex on Smallville), who can occasionally make even Lana interesting. MS has wonderful natural chemistry. Of course, I saw this as the person who never saw The Big Deal with Spike or Faith, so my perspective isn't fandom-norm. Though the large amount of people who are passionate about Daniel one way or the other speaks to his character having the same amount of passion invested. Everyone seems to have a little bit more 'pow' when acting opposite Michael.

I like Chiana also, but every time she exhibits unrequited feelings towards John, I get sad.

Well, I'd argue that they aren't so much unrequited as unresolved. John's got that co-dependent thing with Aeryn going, so Chiana will never 'get' him in any sense, but I don't know if she'd want him so much if she could have him. Because John gets committed far too easily and Chiana's still very young, even with all that's happened to her.

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

I love Aeryn, but I hate the position she gets shoved into with John by the end of the series (Loving Man! Emotionally Cold Woman! Boo, Emotionally Cold Woman! Be Saved by the Loving Man!). I thought they never made her quite alien enough -- she's from a totally different background, after all -- which is part of why I loved Chiana and Zhaan -- they were so different, and their different-ness was a big part of their characters, down to their physical movements. Claudia Black is a fantastic actress, so I was frustrated by what her role had become by the end.

Question wrt Willow -- actually, wasn't part of her character not facing up to her mistakes that way? I'm trying to think of mistakes she made, and I'm thinking mainly of the magic ones -- casting the spell in Something Blue, messing with Tara's memory, messing with everyone's memory, well then that whole trying to wreck the world thing &c. I do think her friends drew away from her in S6 -- and of course Tara -- which was some of making her face what she'd done wrong, although actually I don't think she had to face what she'd done wrong in S7 -- that, for me, was when it was papered over with that one ep with Gnarl in it. As for characters getting away with stuff, you had Xander not telling Buffy about Willow's plan to resoul Angel and his own misuse of magic in Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered and Once More with Feeling -- I don't think he ever got really called on any of that, either, and it bugged me.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I love Aeryn, but I hate the position she gets shoved into with John by the end of the series (Loving Man! Emotionally Cold Woman! Boo, Emotionally Cold Woman! Be Saved by the Loving Man!).

Seeing as the big problem that I have with Aeryn isn't with Aeryn herself but as part of the co-dependent monster that is John/Aeryn, I can see that.

I thought they never made her quite alien enough -- she's from a totally different background, after all -- which is part of why I loved Chiana and Zhaan -- they were so different, and their different-ness was a big part of their characters, down to their physical movements. Claudia Black is a fantastic actress, so I was frustrated by what her role had become by the end.

Completely agree with this. Part of the problem I have with John and Aeryn is that I don't see the point of throwing a man across the galaxy in order to hook him up with someone who pretty much comes across as human. I would have loved more Alien!Aeryn, truly seeing the differences between Sebaceans and humans. That would have been interesting.

Question wrt Willow -- actually, wasn't part of her character not facing up to her mistakes that way?

Well, she was supposed to actually 'go evil' in S6 and Alyson Hannigan went to Joss and basically begged him not to because she didn't want the fans to hate Willow. So, originally, the fallout was supposed to be bigger.

I'm trying to think of mistakes she made, and I'm thinking mainly of the magic ones -- casting the spell in Something Blue, messing with Tara's memory, messing with everyone's memory, well then that whole trying to wreck the world thing &c. I do think her friends drew away from her in S6 -- and of course Tara -- which was some of making her face what she'd done wrong, although actually I don't think she had to face what she'd done wrong in S7 -- that, for me, was when it was papered over with that one ep with Gnarl in it.

Well, I don't actually care that much about her being confronted (though I think she was, at the end of S6, with Xander), so much as changing the behavior that fucked everything up in the first place. When she felt bad and then went and did the same thing again, I wanted to smack her. When she felt bad and actually tried and succeeded in changing and growing as a person, I sympathized with her and liked her better.

Which is why Xander's stuff doesn't bother me as much. He lies to Buffy at the end of season two (and I don't place much blame on him for that mostly because... well, I would have made the same call in his place. He made a call and stuck with it.). The one thing that he's done that truly bothered me was his hypocritical condemnation of Buffy and Angel when he was kissing Willow. And he pretty much had major consequences with that. He's the person who lost his girlfriend in a painful way and slept outside, in the dark, where the vampires are, on Christmas Eve. Misuse of magic-wise, he almost died in BB&B, plus Oz punched him out for Willow hitting on him, which still strikes me as intensely unfair, despite the years that have passed. I hold irrational (seeing as Oz didn't know that that was why) grudges extremely well. In Once More, With Feeling, he was the reason the ember jumped on the entire downspiral of the Scoobies. Now, was he called on it, as in someone telling him he did wrong? Well, Giles bawled him out in BB&B, as I recall. In the other two instances, I don't remember, but he has been called out, many times, for his behavior. Examples off the top of my head -- Anya and Giles never failed to point out when he'd done something wrong. I haven't seen enough episodes recently enough to call up specific examples... ah! Anya called him on not talking about their engagement.

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Seeing as the big problem that I have with Aeryn isn't with Aeryn herself but as part of the co-dependent monster that is John/Aeryn, I can see that.

Yeah, Farscape for me never was All About John/Aeryn -- it was much more Wow! Cool ship! Neat aliens! When it gets to stuff like that infamous coin toss, I groan.

Part of the problem I have with John and Aeryn is that I don't see the point of throwing a man across the galaxy in order to hook him up with someone who pretty much comes across as human. I would have loved more Alien!Aeryn, truly seeing the differences between Sebaceans and humans

YES! dingdingdingding. Frex, I always thought Aeryn's culture was one where the Earth human connections just don't exist -- you have creches, you have sex really divorced from reproduction (really really divorced, as it turns out), and yet there's this thing about how she knows who her mother and father were, and her mother told her she was a wanted child....I thought that could've set up tremendous conflicts in her psychology, but they really didn't go there. I always saw the Peacekeepers as being a lot like the Spartans, and wanted more of that.

Well, she was supposed to actually 'go evil' in S6 and Alyson Hannigan went to Joss and basically begged him not to because she didn't want the fans to hate Willow. So, originally, the fallout was supposed to be bigger.

Heh. Waitaminnit, do you mean S5? cause I think I remember hearing Tara was supposed to die at the end of S5 as well as Buffy. Or do you mean she was supposed to really go a lot more evil in S6 than she did?

was he called on it, as in someone telling him he did wrong? Well, Giles bawled him out in BB&B, as I recall. In the other two instances, I don't remember, but he has been called out, many times, for his behavior. Examples off the top of my head -- Anya and Giles never failed to point out when he'd done something wrong. I haven't seen enough episodes recently enough to call up specific examples... ah! Anya called him on not talking about their engagement.

Aha, had forgotten re the Anya/Giles dynamic -- although I after a while personally tended to write that off as "Anya criticizes Xander" and "Giles doesn't really like Xander for some odd reason" (although that could have totally been my subjective opinion). I have to admit a big hole in the series for me is why Giles doesn't try to guide or at least confront Willow about her worsening use of magic -- they have the semi-showdown in the kitchen but then he flies back to England. I understand it was basically RL circumstances forcing themselves on the writers but it always felt like he really dropped the ball there. But you're right of course, those two tended to pounce when he'd done wrong.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Farscape for me never was All About John/Aeryn -- it was much more Wow! Cool ship! Neat aliens! When it gets to stuff like that infamous coin toss, I groan.

And the whole Two Johns things... I like MoyaJohn so much more than TalynJohn, because he's not All About Aeryn. He's All About Wormholes instead, maybe, and Quickly Going Insane, but at least his every waking moment isn't AerynAerynAeryn.

Frex, I always thought Aeryn's culture was one where the Earth human connections just don't exist -- you have creches, you have sex really divorced from reproduction (really really divorced, as it turns out), and yet there's this thing about how she knows who her mother and father were, and her mother told her she was a wanted child....I thought that could've set up tremendous conflicts in her psychology, but they really didn't go there. I always saw the Peacekeepers as being a lot like the Spartans, and wanted more of that.

That would have been damn cool. And yeah, I loved the neat things like the way (was it Sebacean or specificially PK) her biology worked and such. And that neat thing about having that spinal whatsit that was such a big deal in the first season finale arc. The alien parts of Aeryn were most interesting, biologically, socially and emotionally. And they didn't use them enough.

Waitaminnit, do you mean S5? cause I think I remember hearing Tara was supposed to die at the end of S5 as well as Buffy. Or do you mean she was supposed to really go a lot more evil in S6 than she did?

The reason that Tara didn't die in S5 was because Joss liked her too much. But the outfall in S6 was supposed to be a lot bigger. There wasn't supposed to be an 'addiction' red herring at all. But AH didn't like that plan (she also talked Joss into not making her sing or dance much for the musical) because she was afraid that if Willow 'went bad' the fans wouldn't like her anymore.

Aha, had forgotten re the Anya/Giles dynamic -- although I after a while personally tended to write that off as "Anya criticizes Xander" and "Giles doesn't really like Xander for some odd reason" (although that could have totally been my subjective opinion).

Hee. I never stopped noticing the Giles' nitpicks. He was never Xander's biggest fan. I think he saw too much of himself in Xander and Giles is not big on empathy (he was also, as you point out, not sympathetic with Willow). Giles only gets nice if you're Buffy or if you've already worked past your big issues, like Xander in the finale and Willow in Season Seven. If you aren't up to his standard, he's harsh. In the realm of "irrational grudges on Xander's behalf", I have not and never will forgive Giles for taking what he thought was Willow's death using it to be deliberately hurtful to Xander ("Better than me." "Much better."). That was uncalled for and utterly unfair and it really made me bitter towards Xander for quite some time.

Of course, this is the woman who still hasn't forgiven Faith for nearly raping and killing Xander and (more importantly, in my mind) never showing one moment of remorse for it. She jokes about being Xander's first in the seventh season. I wanted to smack the hell out of her. And was thrilled that Buffy got in a couple (I had, begrudging, forgiven her for her offenses against Buffy because she did show remorse).

But yeah, Xander's my guy. I always notice when someone's mean to him.

The Farscape Bit

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

This got too big for one bit -- so we have this the Farscape bit, then the Buffy bit.

And the whole Two Johns things... I like MoyaJohn so much more than TalynJohn, because he's not All About Aeryn. He's All About Wormholes instead, maybe, and Quickly Going Insane, but at least his every waking moment isn't AerynAerynAeryn.

Exactement. My Two Johns was funny at the beginning, with rock-scissors-paper -- but then when One of them got Aeryn, I'm like, ohno, the Other One isn't going to get Aeryn, and that's going to be a Big Plot Thing. And I was right. It might've been interesting if the two Johns had been sufficiently differentiated from each other, but there just wasn't time for that (plus, they're clones, right?). (How did it actually work? Are they both copies? Because someone made the case it's not John and JohnPrime, it's two CopyJohns, if that makes sense....) I thought they could've done a lot more, too, with Aeryn, who's loved someone, lost him, and now has to face his exact duplicate....if only first she had loved him and he hadn't felt it but then he did, or whatever....well, just rambling at this point. I just personally hated it that the strong woman with the big gun became Emotionally Unavailable, but that's a real personal quirk of mine that might not have bothered other people quite so much.

That would have been damn cool. And yeah, I loved the neat things like the way (was it Sebacean or specificially PK) her biology worked and such. And that neat thing about having that spinal whatsit that was such a big deal in the first season finale arc. The alien parts of Aeryn were most interesting, biologically, socially and emotionally. And they didn't use them enough.

Oooh, yes, the tissue graft in "Nerve" -- that was great! And set up the plot! (And gave us Stark! Most everyone else I've met hates Stark, but I just love him, he's so bats. I still yell "MY side, YOUR side!" around the house.) I really liked Crais and Talyn as representatives of Peacekeeper culture, too -- I wanted Aeryn to be more tempted, more entwined, with Crais than she was (especially since he was the one who booted her in the first place, then wound up in essentially the same place himself) and I loved the scenes where she was bonding with Talyn -- it was neat that she named him, and as a hybrid of Leviathan/Peacekeeper he almost seemed to be a kind of mirror of her self, the Peacekeeper persona with all the experiences she'd had on Moya.

((siiigh)) What I've seen of the trailers -- the emphasis on John and Aeryn, the baby, their finding a place in the world to raise up a family together -- doesn't make me that sanguine for the miniseries. BUT it also looks like we get a great variety of aliens, so that makes me happy. I'll freely admit I really want to see something done with Chiana's storyline, as she's v close to my heart out of that group (I hope they don't just pair her off with D'Argo again). I hope she's not just a sidekick.

Re: The Farscape Bit

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, I hate the idea of Love Warming Up The Cold Heart, whether the cold one is male or female. If they have to change, then (generic) you didn't really love them, you loved an idealized version, in which case you can bite it, yaknow?

I've liked what I've seen of Stark. But I haven't seen everything yet, so... yeah. Might grow to dislike him. Never know.

I really hope they don't stick Chiana with D'Argo. She's not old enough and she isn't really his type. They had really good sex at one point in history and he got too attached. End of story.

Re: The Farscape Bit

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Well, I hate the idea of Love Warming Up The Cold Heart, whether the cold one is male or female. If they have to change, then (generic) you didn't really love them, you loved an idealized version, in which case you can bite it, yaknow?

Heh, good pt. Except it's the big cliche that the Woman's Warm Love Defrosts The Cold Man, only Farscape flipped it so the Man's Love had to Defrost the Cold Woman, blahblah.

I've liked what I've seen of Stark. But I haven't seen everything yet, so... yeah. Might grow to dislike him. Never know.

I think it depends a little bit on how much tolerance people have for nutty comic relief, although his character gets darker as it goes on (although that happens to everyone).

I really hope they don't stick Chiana with D'Argo

Me too -- I hope they don't feel compelled to pair everyone off at the end of the miniseries.

Re: The Farscape Bit

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Except it's the big cliche that the Woman's Warm Love Defrosts The Cold Man, only Farscape flipped it so the Man's Love had to Defrost the Cold Woman, blahblah.

I much prefer the Stargate version -- hot archeologist melts the heart of the suicidal Air Force Colonel and over the years they learn that snark and love can overcome any temporary parting.

There was an amusing vid at VividCon that pointed out the (many) ways in which Stargate and Farscape are the same show (Hero Dies By Radiation!). Except because Stargate has a concrete anchor to humanity and to human connections, it never gets as dark and certainly not as consistently dark.

Re: The Farscape Bit

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Is that Sam and Dan? No -- Jack and Dan? ((woefully ignorant of all but the movie))

Ha, I'd like to see that vid -- that's rather amusing. And Crichton on Farscape is definitely the Lone Human, despite all the Sebaceans (and their annoying resemblance to human psychology), as much as alien to all the other aliens as they are to him. Still, I think the show puts a lot of emphasis on communication and caring and love carrying over species borders (I wanted to see more of that with Aeryn/John -- have her be a lot more different), and I like that.

Still love your icon.

the Buffy Bit

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

the outfall in S6 was supposed to be a lot bigger. There wasn't supposed to be an 'addiction' red herring at all. But AH didn't like that plan (she also talked Joss into not making her sing or dance much for the musical) because she was afraid that if Willow 'went bad' the fans wouldn't like her anymore.

Given what I heard of her singing, I can understand why she weaseled out ofa lot of the musical....I think I had heard that there wasn't supposed to be the "addiction" plotline, and I also had to wonder how much that might've been propelled by the White House anti-drug money some networks took -- supposedly "Beer Bad" was affected by that, I think. I d'know. It's sad, because like you said wayy up above, part of what makes characters loveable are their flaws -- their sharp edges, what they get called on, what they know are their faults. I agree Willow basically charmed her way out of a lot of facing herself and what she tended to do wrong, and I thought S7 would be a great way for her to deal with that -- so it would've been better for her character if she'd had been a baddie; it would've given her some traction, some grit. (Besides, some of us love Bad Girls. Us Faith Fans, for example. Heh.) But if it was all addiction and not v much Willow, that doesn't give me much to be interested in her character anymore.

I never stopped noticing the Giles' nitpicks. He was never Xander's biggest fan. I think he saw too much of himself in Xander and Giles is not big on empathy (he was also, as you point out, not sympathetic with Willow). Giles only gets nice if you're Buffy or if you've already worked past your big issues, like Xander in the finale and Willow in Season Seven. If you aren't up to his standard, he's harsh.

That is really a good point. I always wondered why he found Xander so tiresome -- moreso than everyone else -- maybe even some kind of male pecking order thing? Giles wasn't too good at being empathic with Faith, either, in the little window where she was reachable. That's a side of Giles I don't see often, since he's so considerate of Buffy, but yeah, definitely there.

taking what he thought was Willow's death using it to be deliberately hurtful to Xander ("Better than me." "Much better."). That was uncalled for and utterly unfair

That was really nasty, yeah (it reminded me of "When I want your opinion, Spike....I'll never want your opinion"). Some British people I know can be catty like that -- it's sort of a national style sometimes. I also wonder if it was meant to be a laugh line that just really sank. Butyeah, awful moment.

still hasn't forgiven Faith for nearly raping and killing Xander and (more importantly, in my mind) never showing one moment of remorse for it. She jokes about being Xander's first in the seventh season. I wanted to smack the hell out of her

Oh yeah, they didn't handle that return in S7 very well, I thought -- the "first" mention was REALLY jarring (like when Buffy said "You really do have trouble saying no" to Spike in a different moment -- I was like "They made THAT a JOKE?"). Poor Xander.

yeah, Xander's my guy. I always notice when someone's mean to him

Wouldn't've noticed -- heh. -- Do you think there was some reason for gouging (AAGH!) out his eye, given the emphasis on watching and seeing? I thought it was horrible to do to him and didn't really understand the rationale for it, except to maybe underline what a bad decision it had been that had wounded one of the core gang that badly. And then when it kept getting used in the previouslies....((shudder))

Re: the Buffy Bit

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I've always wondered if the "Alyson whined to Joss" thing is just one of those dubious fandom rumours that get overblown. My personal interpretation of the Willow S6 thing is that ME wrote it starting from the idea that a Willow vs. Buffy blowout would be a cool way to end the season, and suddenly realised around Smashed/Wrecked that to have things get bad enough for that on the basis of her just being power-crazed would render the character irredeemable in the eyes of the fans.

Re: the Buffy Bit

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Alyson Hannigan is the person who mentioned that she asked Joss not to sing or dance (and then said, afterwards, that if she'd known how much better they would have made her sound, that she would've). They've both mentioned about Alyson asking Joss to change the storyline, albeit in what could be a half-joking manner. I read about it on fametracker.com, where they did quote (and source the quotes), though I can't remember the quotes off-hand. It's probably all still in the Alyson Hannigan topic.

But the idea that just making it a character flaw would ruin the character baffles me, because they don't take that tack with any other character, including the stars (Buffy and Angel, who could be quite flawed all on their own). Why's Willow special? Most actors (such as Alexis Denisof as Wesley) leap at the chance to play a dark or 'bad' character. Alyson is one of the few exceptions. She'd rather be liked than have an interesting character.

Re: the Buffy Bit

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I was more trying to suggest that if things had got bad enough for Willow to end up in an all-out battle with Buffy and try to destroy/conquer the world or kill people (not necessarily Warren), and it had been down to Willow going evil of her free will, there would have been no way that they could have brought her back into the fold as quickly as they did in S7. Hell, as it was they had to retcon everything as some kind of possession thing, and I ended up hoping there'd be some line from Faith about "Hey, I kill one person and have to sit in jail for years, she tortures a guy to death, tries to destroy the world, and gets a rest cure."

Re: the Buffy Bit

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

When did they retcon Willow's thing as a possession? During Season Six, some people were put off because it looked like they were trying to make it not her fault, but I really feel as though they had it all on her in Seven. That it wasn't about addiction but about her own weakness, which is why she was able use magic at the end of the season.

And Willow was genuinely remorseful for what she did, for everything she did, including (eventually) killing Warren. Faith, on the other hand, was remorseful for what what she'd done affected her. Maybe that's unfair, but I only saw her apologize to the people she wanted to get in good with. If she were truly remorseful about all that she'd done, she would not have been joking about being Xander's first when only nights after it she tried to rape and kill him.

Re: the Buffy Bit

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

All through Season Seven I got the very striong message that Willow was possessed by the evil black magic and it Wasn't Her Fault. The way she keeps trying magic and melodramatically Turning Evil implies that all her really vicious behaviour in Two To Go/Grave was the fault of the black magic she drained from Rack and that she's tainted by an external evil. And then the whole soul colonic thing with the Scythe implies that everything will be alright now she's got in touch with a source of magic that doesn't morally warp her from outside. I never saw any hint that she was dealing with the genuine internal issues about failure to respect other people's bodily and spiritual integrity, and reliance on magic power for validation, that sent her down that path to begin with. I had hopes of Killer in Me, but it turns out that the real guilt she's feeling there is her belief that she's betraying Tara's memory by moving on to Kennedy. And I don't remember any point where she specifically expressed remorse for murdering Warren.

By contrast, I thought that the whole shift in Faith's persona in AtS4/BtVS7 showed how much she'd genuinely changed - the lack of attitude, the ability to work well with others, the respect for others' feelings, the ability to knuckle down and work. I was annoyed by the lack of any attempt to deal with the specific Xander issue, but those five very dense episodes, and the season as a whole, were so devoid of any genuine character exploration, except of Buffy and Spike, that I blame ME rather than Faith as a character.

Re: the Buffy Bit

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I need to rewatch Season Seven, because wow, I did not get that impression at all. Her remorse with Giles and her actions in Sunnydale convinced me of her emotional growth. And really, should she feel bad for killing Warren? Yes, it would have been nice if he could have been put into a jail that could hold him, but I can understand why she couldn't do that. But when she really realized that killing him a) didn't make her feel a damn bit better and b) didn't bring her any closer to Tara, she went kinda nuts.

Honestly, I'm with Dawn and Xander -- killing Warren wasn't the right move, but he'd already killed two women at that point. He had to be stopped. She just chose a very permanent way of stopping him.

As for Faith, I admit that I hold a grudge. She hurt my guy and never showed any remorse and for that, I do not like her. And in both of her later runs on BtVS, she makes rude comments about Xander and sex (Who Are You; about five minute sex), which is not going to make me like her any faster.

weeping or whining Willow?

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Actually, wasn't there that moment onstage at a con where Joss said EVERYone could die, and Alyson was there and said "Even Willow?" and he more or less promised her right there he wouldn't kill off Willow. Maybe he was being nice to her while they were both onstage, but that did seem like a kinda telling moment. Although ME does seem to have a history of building up internal conflict for characters and then drawing back -- witness Angel/Angelus being two really different characters, or Buffy's having "come back wrong" be really a "deep cellular suntan," &c &c.

Re: weeping or whining Willow?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, they reconcile the Angel/Angelus thing in season five, yes?

And I thought, as did Buffy herself, that not coming back wrong was worse, because it means that all that she did came from Buffy, not from a mystical fluke.

Re: weeping or whining Willow?

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

S5 of Angel or Buffy? ((lamentably confused))

I can see the interpretation that it was worse for Buffy because she couldn't blame her actions on anything other than herself, but it also felt like I was being yanked around a bit wrt Is It Buffy or Is It Memorex (sort of like when Giles could have been the FE in S7). Sometimes ME's idea of suspense via episodic television clashed with good storytelling....

Re: weeping or whining Willow?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Sorry, season five of AtS.

I guess that it worked for me because I liked to make up theories and it almost doesn't matter if they turn out right. A theory is just an educated guess and when new information comes in, theories change. So I never really had trouble with expectations because all I really expect is to be entertained. Anything else is icing.

Re: the Buffy Bit

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Given what I heard of her singing, I can understand why she weaseled out ofa lot of the musical...

Nicholas Brendon sucked, too, but he puts so much sheer energy and verve into his performance that he almost tricks you into thinking that he's okay. And Sarah Michelle trained for a long time to get to the level that she's at in the musical, which is passable but not amazing. Alyson was scared of looking bad.

That is really a good point. I always wondered why he found Xander so tiresome -- moreso than everyone else -- maybe even some kind of male pecking order thing? Giles wasn't too good at being empathic with Faith, either, in the little window where she was reachable. That's a side of Giles I don't see often, since he's so considerate of Buffy, but yeah, definitely there.

Well, the problem is that Buffy is His Slayer. She's his responsibility and he can't ignore that. That he comes to care for her only strengths that first pillar. And Willow, he respected for her obvious brains. Xander was brave and clever but Giles always concentrated more on his bad moments. And with Faith, he never gave her a chance because she wasn't His Slayer. Which was very wrong on him.

Do you think there was some reason for gouging (AAGH!) out his eye, given the emphasis on watching and seeing? I thought it was horrible to do to him and didn't really understand the rationale for it, except to maybe underline what a bad decision it had been that had wounded one of the core gang that badly.

Well, if you believe, as I do, that Xander is the symbol of Buffy's heart, then it's extremely significant. Buffy had been single-minded much of the season. She's lost perspective, which is what you lose if you get one eye poked out. And Xander's injury gave the principal Scoobies a concrete reason to say that Buffy was going too far. Xander's the one person in that group who is and always has been pure humanity, and Buffy's focus on strength alone had blinded her to the dangers that were around her.

Re: the Buffy Bit

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Nicholas Brendon sucked, too, but he puts so much sheer energy and verve into his performance that he almost tricks you into thinking that he's okay. And Sarah Michelle trained for a long time to get to the level that she's at in the musical, which is passable but not amazing

Aww, I didn't think he sucked at all -- his voice was untrained, but it was a nice pleasing baritone. He did amazingly well at the dancing for someone who'd never danced before. SMG sounded pretty good, but her voice was awfully thin -- I understood she was the one holding up the musical for a long time because she didn't want to sing, and only relented at the last minute because she realized a lot of her great character moments would be sung by someone else.

Xander was brave and clever but Giles always concentrated more on his bad moments. And with Faith, he never gave her a chance because she wasn't His Slayer. Which was very wrong on him.

There was an interesting post a couple posts back on jennyo's LJ about Giles and how cold he really can be given his behavior toward some of the Scooby gang and how that can get pasted over by the crush-on-librarian element....it was interesting.

Buffy had been single-minded much of the season. She's lost perspective, which is what you lose if you get one eye poked out. And Xander's injury gave the principal Scoobies a concrete reason to say that Buffy was going too far. Xander's the one person in that group who is and always has been pure humanity, and Buffy's focus on strength alone had blinded her to the dangers that were around her.

I like that -- that's a good analysis.

Re: the Buffy Bit

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Aww, I didn't think he sucked at all -- his voice was untrained, but it was a nice pleasing baritone.

Oh, he isn't astronomically bad, but he'd never be accepted into a choir that you had to audition for. And like I said, he's so very passionate that you don't really notice that he's speak-singing his way through most of it.

He did amazingly well at the dancing for someone who'd never danced before.

He did good there, definitely. Nick and Emma looked very nice together in that number, all fluff and froth, total rom-com stuff. Cuteness.

SMG sounded pretty good, but her voice was awfully thin -- I understood she was the one holding up the musical for a long time because she didn't want to sing, and only relented at the last minute because she realized a lot of her great character moments would be sung by someone else.

Right, she was afraid of doing the musical but ultimately realized that it was more important that it be Buffy singing than that the singing be wonderful.

There was an interesting post a couple posts back on jennyo's LJ about Giles and how cold he really can be given his behavior toward some of the Scooby gang and how that can get pasted over by the crush-on-librarian element....it was interesting.

Giles was downright assholish at times. And he had a double-standard when it came to Xander and Buffy (as shown in that episode whereing both Xander and Buffy fall asleep while watching the Oz-wolf and Xander gets dressed down while Buffy gets not a word of reproach).

Re: the Buffy Bit

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

He did good there, definitely. Nick and Emma looked very nice together in that number, all fluff and froth, total rom-com stuff. Cuteness.

They were adorable. That number was done just perfectly.

ultimately realized that it was more important that it be Buffy singing than that the singing be wonderful.

Oh, ghodyeah, plus it would have looked really silly for everyone else's voice to be natural and hers to be dubbed (the musical ep of Xena did that, I think, for Gabrielle, because she just COULDN'T sing, and it was awfully noticeable).

Giles was downright assholish at times. And he had a double-standard when it came to Xander and Buffy (as shown in that episode whereing both Xander and Buffy fall asleep while watching the Oz-wolf and Xander gets dressed down while Buffy gets not a word of reproach).

Giles definitely has a cold nasty side....it's easy to just sort of push it off onto Ripper but it's part of Giles as well.

Re: Ripper and Giles

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Plus, they're both Giles. Ripper was just a nickname for Giles when he was young and stupid. He's never stopped being 'ripper', he's just learned to think first most of the time.

Re: Ripper and Giles

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Well, there is that "So you're back" line in "The Dark Age" when Giles looks in the mirror, and his behavior seems to indicate that he's tried to put his younger self as far behind him as possible. But I do agree that they're both Giles and that a lot of the demarcation you see in fanfic or analysis (I once read this story where the Ripper personality killed the Giles personality! Then the Ripper personality put on a lot of leather and went off with Faith) is too severe. Kinda like Angel/Angelus on AtS as time went on -- they weren't as harshly separated.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I always thought he was talking to Eyghon there. But I think I'm in the minority.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid my knowledge of most of these universes is minimal to nonexistant, but I can at least offer opinions on the Buffyverse gals. I tend to have a hard time coming up with generalizations as to why I like or dislike characters, although there are a few things that usually make me go one way or another.

Buffy, of course, is a massive bitch. But she comes by it honestly. More importantly, she can be analyzed -- what is it about her life and identity as the slayer that causes her to act the way she does? This is especially true in the later seasons, which is why I like her more then, despite her being much nastier. Also, I never stop feeling bad for Buffy, so there's a strong sympathy factor.

Willow, I like in the first two seasons. She has her moments in other seasons, but I don't really like her afterwards. Of course, her character had absolutely the most potential for a great story line during seasons 6 and 7, and of course, the writers squandered it. She's still very interesting, but more so in AU fanfic or musings -- what *could* have happened -- than the actual canon (with exceptions, primarily in early season 6). The majority of the time I don't like or dislike her. Her more severely hypocritical moments I strongly dislike.

I like Cordelia pretty much until the advent of St. Cordy in AtS season 3. I don't strongly dislike St. Cordy, but she's not very interesting, and she grates after a while. I didn't much like the evil!Cordy plotline.

Tara was boring and a goody-two-shoes (usually), which is why I love her.

Fred was cool when she was crazy, vengeful, or dorky. SuperFred was more obnoxious than St. Cordy.

I'm one of the few people who seems to like Dawn. The only thing I didn't like was when she started translating ancient Turkish and stuff like that. Also, they needed to do more with the key-thing and her self-identity issues in seasons 6 and 7, but that's not the character's fault, in this case.

I quite like Anya, too, although I find she's usually written horribly in fanfic. Another character they needed to do more with in Season 7 (this was pretty much the whole problem with that season -- they suddenly forgot they had *characters*).

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Buffy, of course, is a massive bitch. But she comes by it honestly. More importantly, she can be analyzed -- what is it about her life and identity as the slayer that causes her to act the way she does? This is especially true in the later seasons, which is why I like her more then, despite her being much nastier. Also, I never stop feeling bad for Buffy, so there's a strong sympathy factor.

I don't think that I'd use the word 'bitch'. She's strong and has been known to be self-involved and has been bitchy on occasion, but a bitch? I never saw that.

And I liked Willow least in the early seasons. Well, all the way up to the end of season six, really. Actually, I saw Willow as a stealth bitch a lot (telling Cordelia that the 'del' key meant 'deliver' in order to get back at her for saying mean things about Buffy).

My favorite Cordelia episode was You're Welcome. That was probably the only time that I wholeheartedly embraced her as a sympathetic character.

Yeah, I adored Tara from start to finish. So sweet and hopeful and she just gained so much confidence over her time on the show that it was so heartbreaking to lose her. Loved her.

I started liking Fred in the Jasmine arc and never stopped.

I like Dawn once I realized that I couldn't much hold the yelling against her because I had done the exact same thing when I was her age.

Anya was interesting. I enjoyed her character retcon in Selfless, because it gave her a character arc that wasn't about the Love of a Good Man Redeeming the Cruel Heart of a Demon. Which Xander/Anya never was, but it could have been and I'm so glad that it wasn't.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

She's strong and has been known to be self-involved and has been bitchy on occasion, but a bitch?

I think we're using different definitions of bitch. I generally tend to take "being bitchy" as "being a bitch." Of course, it's not always a bad thing -- see Cordy and Lilah's conversation in "Billy." But then, maybe bitchy isn't exactly the word I'm going for. She says and does a lot of things I have a problem with, especially in the last couple seasons. You mentioned that Buffy, unlike certain other characters, gets called on her mistakes -- I'll call and raise you one; Buffy gets called on things she does that bother other people, even when they aren't mistakes, IMO. Or if they are, the people who call her on it are upset about the wrong thing or simply have no right to say what they do in response. (That's a lot of the sympathy I mentioned.)


I liked the "del" moment because Cordy was perfectly happy to use her information after being incredibly cruel to her -- if anything, Cordy shouldn't have trusted the information. Being a long-term geek, I like genuine but non-stereotypical geeks. After she started doing magic, it still seemed like you were supposed to think of her as a "loveable geek" when that's not who she was at all. Also, I thought she became something of a bitch sometime mid-season 4, most obviously where Anya was concerned. Before that, she was manipulative (and to be honest, I hated her in "Dead Man's Party," but I hated pretty much all of that episode except the Giles scenes), but not exactly bitchy.

I cried at the end of "You're Welcome," despite having not really cared that Cordy was in a coma. It was a good episode.

I think I went the reverse direction with Fred. ;-)

See, I loved that they gave Anya a story arc, but they didn't do anything with it after that episode -- the only thing she did until "End of Days" was try to get men to sleep with her with varying levels of seriousness and success.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think we're using different definitions of bitch. I generally tend to take "being bitchy" as "being a bitch." Of course, it's not always a bad thing -- see Cordy and Lilah's conversation in "Billy." But then, maybe bitchy isn't exactly the word I'm going for. She says and does a lot of things I have a problem with, especially in the last couple seasons. You mentioned that Buffy, unlike certain other characters, gets called on her mistakes -- I'll call and raise you one; Buffy gets called on things she does that bother other people, even when they aren't mistakes, IMO. Or if they are, the people who call her on it are upset about the wrong thing or simply have no right to say what they do in response.

Buffy can be difficult. She really builds up a wall around herself in the later seasons, because of her fears ("I guess the Slayer is just a killer after all.") and doubts. I remember that I was so confused and mad with Buffy in the latter part of season seven until I twigged that she was running scared. She'd been given the charge of these young girls who kept dying and Giles was less help that she could hope for. And the First Evil convinced Angel to commit suicide. The reason that he failed was not through any agency of Buffy, but through the intervention of a mysterious power. The last time that Buffy came up against the First, she wasn't the one who defeated its plan.

I liked the "del" moment because Cordy was perfectly happy to use her information after being incredibly cruel to her -- if anything, Cordy shouldn't have trusted the information. Being a long-term geek, I like genuine but non-stereotypical geeks.

I never saw her as a lovable geek. From the very first, I saw a passive-aggressive whiner who never stopped to consider the consequences of her actions and who considered herself above the law as long as she didn't get caught.

I cried at the end of "You're Welcome," despite having not really cared that Cordy was in a coma. It was a good episode.

A really good episode, definitely.

See, I loved that they gave Anya a story arc, but they didn't do anything with it after that episode -- the only thing she did until "End of Days" was try to get men to sleep with her with varying levels of seriousness and success.

Well, she also doubted Buffy a lot. But she'd always done that, so that wasn't really anything new.