Random Fan Opinions:

[butterfly]

1. Joey Potter (Dawson's Creek) and Lana Lang (Smallville) aren't a lot alike and it makes my head hurt when people put them in the same category. They share a few things in common -- the love of the main character, dark hair, and a dead mother. But at the beginning of their various arcs, they're actually about as far from each other as they can be -- Joey's the piner, Lana's the pinee; Joey lives on the wrong side of the creek, Lana is a cheerleader whose aunt is friends with the Luthors; the blonde girl is preferred to Joey in the beginning by the lead, while the reverse occurs on Smallville. Popular girl who feels all alone is not the same as outcast who feels all alone.

2. Love comes in so many variations, with infinite degrees of intensity and uncounted shades of complexity. This is why I find it so hard to compare various loves to each other. The idea of asking who, for example, Xander (BtVS) loved most strikes me as approaching pointless. The way that he loved Willow was different in kind to how he loved Buffy, or Cordy, or Anya. Did he love Willow more than he loved Buffy? I think that it's impossible to say. One could bring up points for either side.

3. On Stargate SG-1, Daniel loved Sha're -- but the lure of knowledge was bright enough to distract him from that on more than one occasion (unburying the gate and Torment of Tantalus immediately spring to mind). Daniel cared for Sarah, and again, the reason that they broke up was because his work got in the way. Therefore, it's no surprise to me that Daniel can care for Jack and SG-1 (enough to say that he finally feels like he belongs somewhere (Orpheus)) and still wish that he could have gone with the Atlantis team (Stargate Atlantis -- Rising). For Daniel, the call of some unknown secret will always attract his attention away from what he already knows. That's just who he is.

4. One of my big fanfic kinks is 'friends become lovers', but it's actually much more specific than that. I like to see the friendship form, like to see the creation of the relationship. It also needs to have a banter and an edge to it; there needs to be just a hint of instability. But I also need the friendship to benefit both parties -- I want them to inspire each other to be better people. The first qualification explains why I prefer Buffy/Xander to Xander/Willow (BtVS) -- the relationship between Buffy and Xander is created during the show. I get to see all their 'first moments' together. I like that. The second explains why I prefer Fraser/Kowalski to Fraser/Vecchio (due South) -- we see the 'firsts' for both relationships, but the F/K relationship has a volatility and a passion to it that I just don't see in Fraser's relationship with Vecchio. And the last explains why I can't embrace John/Aeryn (Farscape). I just can't see how their love makes them better people, especially, and this is a thing for me, in the absence of the person. And this is why I prefer even the canon friendship of Jack/Daniel to the romance of John/Aeryn -- when Jack loses Daniel, he retains everything that Daniel gave him. He was affected and changed by Daniel and losing Daniel doesn't make Jack lose the sense of Daniel (Fallout -- Hammond says to Jack, "You're beginning to sound like Doctor Jackson."). I dislike the "I can't survive without you" school of love.

5. The Return of the King still makes me cry and I still adore the ending. I don't know if I could actually choose a favorite of those movies, because I do tend to think of them as one really long movie, but there are some moments in tRotK that just take my breath away, no matter what. Mostly Frodo, often Sam (too many to count for the both of them). Pippin and Gandulf's moment before the Army of the Dead comes. Aragon kissing Arwen with a fierce tenderness. Merry and Eowyn -- 'courage for our friends'. Losing Theoden. Legolas and Gimli -- 'with a friend'.

The leave-taking at the Grey Havens.

Comments

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I agree about Joey and Lana not being alike.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Not much at all, definitely.

[jic]

*hugs*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

How're you doing?

Have I ever mentioned how much I like that icon? It's so pretty and purple.

[jic]

Thanks! dreamtrance made it for me.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

1. Not in either fandom, but this sounds right from an outsider's perspective.

2. Agree that love comes in many forms. However, I do think there is a "loves best" for some characters, even if "best" simply means "would go the furthest for". I actually see this more with Buffy --> Dawn, Angel --> Connor, and Simon --> River more than with any other characters. It's the parent thing, basically. What wouldn't Jack do for Charlie, if he ever had the chance?

3. ITA re Daniel and his pursuit of knowledge. Definitely a core personality trait that has remained consistent through a movie and eight seasons of TV. Not always an attractive quality, when it leads to poor decisions that are costly to others, but a believable, understandable, and consistent character trait. One of the things I love best about him :)

4. And this is why I prefer even the canon friendship of Jack/Daniel to the romance of John/Aeryn -- when Jack loses Daniel, he retains everything that Daniel gave him. He was affected and changed by Daniel and losing Daniel doesn't make Jack lose the sense of Daniel (Fallout -- Hammond says to Jack, "You're beginning to sound like Doctor Jackson.").

Beautifully said! I hadn't thought about it in those terms, but it makes such wonderful sense.

I dislike the "I can't survive without you" school of love.

Well, I don't mind it now and then. *g* Sometimes I'm in the mood for mind-bendingly dramatic and melodramatic declarations of undying love!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

2. The parent/caretaker role is... that's interesting. It's the blood thing, the physical connection thing. Parental love is possibly the most instinctive, which makes it remarkably strong (and even then, there are some people who don't have that instinct). It's the true life model where we most often see unconditional love, I think (though even then, not as often as it should be).

3. Oh, especially when it tips over and he goes dangerous places with it. I love it when the person's greatest strength and greatest weakness coincide. Every virtue pushed too far becomes vice, that sort of thing. That need to know has led Daniel to his greatest joys and his deepest tragedies.

4. That's part of why I fell so hard for Stargate SG-1 -- Jack and Daniel's relationship feels so rich and real and giving, even at its worst.

Sometimes I'm in the mood for mind-bendingly dramatic and melodramatic declarations of undying love!

I enjoy the melodrama, but it's... not something that I can take seriously over time unless the unhealthy nature of that kind of love is shown (this is why I enjoy Fred/Wesley so much -- Angel was very honest in the obsessive nature of his love).

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

You know what I find really REALLY cool about what you said about John/Aeryn in this post? That I totally called it as why you didn't like them from that post you made about Buffy making people better for knowing her. I was thinking about that post in the context of them (cuz that was when my brain could fit nothing but Farscape) and your co-dependant comments. So, I'll just be proud here for a sec.

And ok, over it now. Esp. since it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work it out.

Plus, I'd argue that within canon you don't get to see them without each other for long enough to know whether or not they'd be better people for having known the other, if one of them did actually stay dead for more than five minutes or they parted ways or whatever. But this is that whole thing where canon is subjective and you can argue it either way from whatever point you choose to view it from, so. Argh, damnit, I did have thoughts on this but they never made it as far as my LJ. How do you manage with that?

Also, awwww, word on RotK.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

You know what I find really REALLY cool about what you said about John/Aeryn in this post? That I totally called it as why you didn't like them from that post you made about Buffy making people better for knowing her. I was thinking about that post in the context of them (cuz that was when my brain could fit nothing but Farscape) and your co-dependant comments. So, I'll just be proud here for a sec.

You should totally be proud of you.

Yeah, the co-dependent thing is what bugs me about them. And while I can kinda see the other point of view... John went crazy without Aeryn there. Literally went nuts. And that bothers me on so many levels, most of which aren't even connected to my brain. It just feels like they lost who they were as people. Their relationship just... squicks me.

Argh, damnit, I did have thoughts on this but they never made it as far as my LJ. How do you manage with that?

I write down things sometimes. I also talk to myself, a lot. It helps things stick -- I say something out loud, it's a lot easier for me to remember it later.

[m-butterfly.livejournal.com]

John went crazy without Aeryn there. Literally went nuts.

On the other hand, consider the extraordinary situation John is, was, and has been in almost the entire run of the show (excluding a few... what was that, S4 eps?)--as good as the friendships he's built are and can be, to a certain degree he's not only entirely without a normal support system, but he's also entirely in a completely abnormal basic situation--a form of culture displacement so extreme there is literally nothing on earth that comes close, though you can compare some situations.

Looking at it like that, his relationship with Aeryn... well, there's still an element of co-dependence there, but it's a sort of necessary or at least more understandable one in that she is one of the few stable and relatable things in his world. After all, a number of traditional 'unhealthy' behavior patterns evolve out of ones which are 'healthy' in the sense of being necessary to cope with a situation.

*pauses, stares at that, and blinks*

I have no idea where that came from.

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

*L* I just saw this and it's very similar to what I'd have said too.

Except more articulate.

I love your icon, btw.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree with that. I just -- the degree of difference between John with Aeryn and John without is striking enough in what I saw and read that it disturbed me. They really do just squick me, which is why I've been unable to watch Farscape for longer than a couple of weeks at any given time before I give up again.

It bothers me, because I really like the show, apart from the John/Aeryn thing (I like the humor, I like the muppets, I really like Chiana). But John/Aeryn is so tightly wound into the fabric of the show that I can't watch the show and not be distressed/annoyed by it.

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

You should totally be proud of you.

Hee, okay. *is*

Yeah, the co-dependent thing is what bugs me about them. And while I can kinda see the other point of view... John went crazy without Aeryn there. Literally went nuts. And that bothers me on so many levels, most of which aren't even connected to my brain. It just feels like they lost who they were as people. Their relationship just... squicks me.

See, and I *can* argue all this but again, essentially it seems to come down to where you start looking at something from? And from there all the stuff falls into different places for you. Or something. I did a lot of thinking about this because I'm very very insecure in my opinions so if I respect someone else's opinions (as I do yours) and they disagree with me I immediately question my own opinion but I'm getting better about it.

I do write things down, sometimes, if I remember to. A lot of my thoughts usually come right before I go to sleep, I conduct long internal monologues that I only half remember in the morning.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, most people don't see John/Aeryn as fucked up and co-dependent... or, at least, if they don't, they find them wonderfully romantic anyway. But most people don't talk about them as if they're fucked up, so I'm going with the first option.

Anyway, since I'm in the minority, I have the burden of proof (and one can't prove a negative in any case, so I bear the burden of proof in that case as well). And I haven't managed to keep watching Farscape long enough to do my fannish meta thing of gathering together episodes and quotes. And that's because J/A squicks me on that subconscious level and I can't watch them. So, maybe on closer viewing, I wouldn't see them as co-dependant, but I doubt that I'll ever be able to push down my instinctive reaction long enough to find out.

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I probably would've missed the fuck-up-edness for a VERY long time were it not for the fact I knew that you didn't like them going in cuz I went in knowing I would probably love them but also wanting to know why you didn't, if that makes sense? But I do think of them as fucked up in S4, just, not irreparably so.

And if it really does freak you out so very much, there's no need to push yourself to watch it just so you can see it differently if you don't want to. Or something.

[chicklet-girl.livejournal.com]

I tend to lump Joey and Lana together on a metatextual level, as they're both the Producers' Princesses, characters the producers like out of all proportion. You know, *every* character in the show's universe loves them, and they can treat people badly and not get called on it, etc. Characterwise, they're very different, though.

there are some moments in tRotK that just take my breath away, no matter what

For me, that list also includes the lighting of the beacons, Pippin's song, the Rohan charge, and Merry telling Pippin he's going to watch over him.

*sniff*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I tend to lump Joey and Lana together on a metatextual level, as they're both the Producers' Princesses, characters the producers like out of all proportion. You know, *every* character in the show's universe loves them, and they can treat people badly and not get called on it, etc. Characterwise, they're very different, though.

Something that I find interesting, though, is that Joey evolved into being a Producers' Princess (in the beginning, she was very tomboy-y and Not The Cool Blonde From New York), whereas Lana is the Princess from day one.

For me, that list also includes the lighting of the beacons, Pippin's song, the Rohan charge, and Merry telling Pippin he's going to watch over him.

Pippin's song! Oh, those are all such perfect moments, too. There are too many to count.

[tafkarfanfic.livejournal.com]

This is why I find it so hard to compare various loves to each other.
Agreed, wholeheartedly!

You said so much in this post that I completely agreed with. Like, 100%. Can I link to this, please?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Can I link to this, please?

Oh, wow, totally, if you'd like.

And now you've been introduced to the utterly dorky side of me.

Seriously, though, you never need to have permission to link me or any of my posts. Though, if you let me know about it, you'll get to witness me going, "Dude! That's so cool!"

[krabbypatty.livejournal.com]

I um, never comment on your posts, but I just wanted to say that I really enjoy your fan posts, I always find them interesting. And because of them, I recently got interested in Stargate and now I love to watch SciFi Fridays.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

That is so cool. Dude, I'm getting people sucked into Stargate right and left.

Sweet.

Thank you for letting me know. It's really neat to know.