Spider-Man 2
Jan. 10th, 2005 09:05 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
butterflyAre there any mainstream reviews of Spider-Man 2 that mention the thing that made me want to blind myself? It doesn't seem so. They think that it was the 'movie summer's most touching young romance'. Last summer? Whatever (I did manage to find a handful of negative reviews, which actually I agree with -- the movie was talky and obvious, but I haven't yet seen The Scene mentioned). If a manipulative and flaky girl and an obsessed boy add up to romance, count me out. She agreed to marry another man. She askes Peter to kiss her to prove that he doesn't love her. Then he says that he does love her, but now she knows he's Spider-Man, so she has to understand that they can't be together. So, she was in the church, all dressed up for the wedding. She has an epiphany or something, and races out of the church, still in her wedding dress, to tell Peter that she loves him and that she doesn't mind if he spends the rest of his life rescuing kittens as long as she can be there waiting at home for him at the end of the day.
I may have paraphrased a little there. But yes, she's just broken her word and possibly broken a man's heart, and she's glowing and giddy, not a care in the world.
And let's not forget her little, "I think I knew all along." in an earlier scene re: his Spideyness. Really? Then why were you always so upset when he took off without warning?
Seriously, the leaving at the altar, especially without a word of explanation, is pretty low. That guy fully deserves the right to hate her for a while, just as Anya hated Xander for a while. And at least he was angsty about it and he didn't do it so that he could tell another woman that he loved her. He fully planned on marrying her before the horrible vision showing in vivid color his great fear about hurting her. Mary Jane, who loved Peter throughout the entire film, decided only at the very last minute that maybe she shouldn't marry someone else.
She could have told him at any earlier point and it would have been better. The night before would have been better, so still fairly horrible. But to let him get all dressed up, with his family and friends there, and then to leave him high and dry -- she just humilated someone that she supposedly cared enough about to say 'yes' to.
I'm sure that any of y'all that have seen the movie have already gotten past your rage, if you felt any. But this is all fresh and new for me.
Of course, it doesn't help that I don't agree with the wording of Spider-Man's premise. With great power does not come great responsibility. It should, but that's not the same. With great power comes the ability to effect great change. It can be used responsibly or not.
I'm just irritated when a 'should' is presented as an 'is'. It's not true to life as we know it. When Bush because President, he didn't magically become more responsible. He just had more power.
ETA: You know, maybe it's not the wording so much as it is the self-righteous way the characters say the phrase. I'll think further on this.
I may have paraphrased a little there. But yes, she's just broken her word and possibly broken a man's heart, and she's glowing and giddy, not a care in the world.
And let's not forget her little, "I think I knew all along." in an earlier scene re: his Spideyness. Really? Then why were you always so upset when he took off without warning?
Seriously, the leaving at the altar, especially without a word of explanation, is pretty low. That guy fully deserves the right to hate her for a while, just as Anya hated Xander for a while. And at least he was angsty about it and he didn't do it so that he could tell another woman that he loved her. He fully planned on marrying her before the horrible vision showing in vivid color his great fear about hurting her. Mary Jane, who loved Peter throughout the entire film, decided only at the very last minute that maybe she shouldn't marry someone else.
She could have told him at any earlier point and it would have been better. The night before would have been better, so still fairly horrible. But to let him get all dressed up, with his family and friends there, and then to leave him high and dry -- she just humilated someone that she supposedly cared enough about to say 'yes' to.
I'm sure that any of y'all that have seen the movie have already gotten past your rage, if you felt any. But this is all fresh and new for me.
Of course, it doesn't help that I don't agree with the wording of Spider-Man's premise. With great power does not come great responsibility. It should, but that's not the same. With great power comes the ability to effect great change. It can be used responsibly or not.
I'm just irritated when a 'should' is presented as an 'is'. It's not true to life as we know it. When Bush because President, he didn't magically become more responsible. He just had more power.
ETA: You know, maybe it's not the wording so much as it is the self-righteous way the characters say the phrase. I'll think further on this.
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(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 05:17 pm (UTC)Honestly, my feelings for the Spider-Man movie franchise are incredibly torn. While I enjoy certain Spider-Man comic books, I've found that the movies actually diminish my liking of most of the characters. Movie!Peter bores me when he's not wearing his mask, Movie!Mary Jane is downright hateful, and even Movie!Aunt May makes my inner fan seethe.
As far as I'm concerned the best thing about both movies thus far have been the villains. Dafoe's portrayal of the Green Goblin's madness was lovely (and would have been 100% more delicious had they not chosen to conceal his wonderfully expressive face behind a mask for most of his scenes), and Molina's portrayal of Ock actually made me fall in love with the character.
I own the movies, but I watch the villains. Scenes intended to be 'romantic' actually make me cringe. They are over-long and so dull!
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 05:26 pm (UTC)You hope that she doesn't get any worse after asking a man to kiss her while she's engaged to another, and then it does. Yeah. That's such a horrible moment. All the worse because she doesn't seem to have a moment's doubt.
Honestly, my feelings for the Spider-Man movie franchise are incredibly torn. While I enjoy certain Spider-Man comic books, I've found that the movies actually diminish my liking of most of the characters. Movie!Peter bores me when he's not wearing his mask, Movie!Mary Jane is downright hateful, and even Movie!Aunt May makes my inner fan seethe.
Yeah, Aunt May was pretty pushy sometimes. And wow, could she go on. And on. And on about the need for heroes. I got it at the end of the first sentence, thanks.
As far as I'm concerned the best thing about both movies thus far have been the villains. Dafoe's portrayal of the Green Goblin's madness was lovely (and would have been 100% more delicious had they not chosen to conceal his wonderfully expressive face behind a mask for most of his scenes), and Molina's portrayal of Ock actually made me fall in love with the character.
I'm in complete agreement. Dafoe did an amazing job with the Goblin (and I, too, lamented the choice they made with the mask), and Ock was downright sympathetic. And I really want to see what happens with Harry, especially if his madness is aided by his father's ghost, but I dread more Mary Jane.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 05:37 pm (UTC)Unfortunately, a lot of the script seemed that way to me. It was long-winded to the point of tedium, especially in scenes involving interaction between Peter and the women in his life. I found myself admiring Aunt May's nifty deco dining chairs during the meant-to-be-emotional scene wherein Peter tells her the truth about uncle Ben's death, for goodness sake! That's just not supposed to happen.
I'm excited about Harry's potential as well. Having Dafoe return as an influential cameo was a good idea as far as I'm concerned (more Dafoe is always welcome). I just hope that the kid who plays Harry is up to the task; I'd love for him to bear some of Dafoe's menace...but without the mask.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 07:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 05:25 pm (UTC)When you have power, you do have responsibility- whether or not you choose to ACT on that is up to you.
Having a child, for example, is a huge responsiblity. As a mother, I can do my best for my kid, or I can let him be raised by the TV and aftercare. In the end, how he turns out is still my responsibility.
Being a responsible person and having a great responsibility are two different things.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 05:30 pm (UTC)Does Buffy have a responsibility to use her powers for the greater good? She has the inclination and the training and she does use them, but I don't think that she's obligated to use those powers for good. If she went and lived a quiet life in the country (or Rome, whatever), is she betraying her responsibility? Some people would argue yes, but other people would argue no. Does have power mean that you have the obligation to use it?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 07:07 pm (UTC)Yes these are all should things - but the should is implied. Buffy does have an obligation to protect others - that is why she is the Chosen One. That is why is sucks to be her and that is why she is a hero. Yes, she could choose to ignore her responsibilities and live a quiet life, but then she would not be a hero. She would be ignoring her responsibility and that is one of the reasons I loved Chosen - because she shared the power and the responsibility and in effect found freedom.
No one would chose to be a superhero. But the inclination to accept the motto "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility" is what a hero does. And I love that. It gives me the good feeling.
Also - hate movie-MaryJane with a passion that burns. She is not anyone I would want to know.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 07:44 pm (UTC)I've always seen the Buffyverse about finding out who you are, about choosing what you want to be, and about how our choices are what make us heroes, whether we be Buffys or Dawns.
I definitely agree that it's the hero's choice to take that responsibility. But it's still a choice that has to be made, each time that you face a situation.
But I don't like, for instance, Aunt May seemingly looking down on Peter for apparently running for his life in the bank. Seriously, if Peter weren't Spider-Man, her speech would have made him feel like shit.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 08:54 pm (UTC)Sigh. I think the fact that you are bothered by "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility" as the accepted structure for Peter's mission is probably why you don't like comics.
It is morally wrong, in this verse, to have the ability to help other people and actively choose not to use it. There is exploration of that as a moral concept (of course, it is not totally black and white - most of this movie dealt with Peter's struggle over balancing his needs with the needs of others) but the core concept remains that you do what you can - you help whom you can - to the best of your abilities... even if those abilities are super.
I kind of really like this idea. I'm also into martrys, though.
But I don't like, for instance, Aunt May seemingly looking down on Peter for apparently running for his life in the bank. Seriously, if Peter weren't Spider-Man, her speech would have made him feel like shit.
IMO - if Peter was abandoning the elderly woman that raised him at the bank - then that is an act of cowardice and he should feel like shit. If I was Aunt May, I'd be heartbroken and also? Not feeding that boy anything for a very long time.
Of course, your moral mileage may vary.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-13 04:38 am (UTC)I find heroes very admirable. But most people don't try to look beyond their own backyards. While I may think that unfortunate, I really don't think that I have the right to do more than point out the things that lie beyond that backyard, and that's what bugs me about the phrase. If Peter hadn't lost his uncle and then didn't become a superhero, I wouldn't think of him as evil for not coming up with the idea. He wouldn't even be 'not good'. He just wouldn't be given the chance to be a hero. Peter didn't become a hero because people needed help -- that's why he stayed a hero. He became a hero because he lost his uncle as a result of an action that he didn't take.
ETA:
Date: 2005-01-10 05:32 pm (UTC)And yeah, it's just an example, but one that really doesn't work for me.
Re: ETA:
Date: 2005-01-10 07:09 pm (UTC)Re: ETA:
Date: 2005-01-11 07:52 pm (UTC)And do you mean that they don't actively use their powers or that they do, but for things other than good? Actually, now that I think about it, it's entirely possible that there are examples of both.
Re: ETA:
Date: 2005-01-11 08:39 pm (UTC)If you use your super-powers for evil, then that makes you a supervillain.
Then there is the murky world of in between.
In conclusion: Angel.
Re: ETA:
Date: 2005-01-13 04:30 am (UTC)And oh, while I'm writing to you -- Two Words, wonderfully affecting as it is on my computer, is so much more powerful on my tv screen. It's almost like my memory of seeing at VividCon. Total teary-eyed moment. That vid kicks so much ass.
Re: ETA:
Date: 2005-01-13 05:57 am (UTC)I think that everything is better with Angel. He should play Mary Jane in the Spiderman III (not David Boreanez. Angel. Because Angel is real).
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 09:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 10:46 pm (UTC)If they wanted to make it a truely happy ending, they didn't have to make him a jerk, they just had to WRITE it differently. They didn't have to include a wedding at all, what, was it in the comics or something?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 02:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 06:19 am (UTC)The wedding dress, seriously- she couldn't take ten minutes to change?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 07:55 pm (UTC)Exactly. That's the bottom line. If you love someone, to the point where you're asking him to kiss you so that you can prove whether or not he loves you back, you should probably not be engaged to someone else.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 09:48 pm (UTC)But, I completely agree with you on the MJ front. I have a couple of long posts about it in my journal as well.
She knows she has mixed feelings over Peter, she knows she's not really in love with her fiancee, and that should be enough to break off the relationship. I don't care if she thinks she can't make it work with Peter or not, she owes it to her fiancee to be up front about this and tell him she's in love with another man. Instead, she goes forward and leaves him at the f'ing altar???? This is possibly one of the cruelest things she could do. She just wasted a huge amount of other people's money, a lot of people's time, and publicly humiliated her intended. I know people who have realised that they did not want to get married but gone through with the ceremony anyway since the family had already arrived for it. They got annulled shortly thereafter. The wedding isn't just about you, MJ. It involves a whole mess of other people too.
I know it's a movie cliche, the leaving at the altar thing, and if you didn't have that, you wouldn't have the symbolic marriage with Peter with the gown and the threshold but - rrrrg! How can you even like someone that's that inconsiderate of other people's feelings?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 07:55 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 10:04 pm (UTC)It also didn't help that shortly afterwards, I read the JMS-written tradebacks of Spiderman, in which Peter and Mary Jane were also estranged, and in which Comics!Mary Jane was behaving so much better. She explicitly told a guy making a pass at her that she couldn't do another relationship because she still had strong feelings for her ex. That's a woman I can respect.
But you know... the movie script was co-written by Gough & Millar of Smallville fame. *cough* Lana *cough*.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 10:31 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 07:57 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 07:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 10:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 07:59 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-03-19 02:11 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-10 11:09 pm (UTC)The classic moment for me was when the guy was getting mugged in the alley, and Peter watched it happening, all torn and anguished, and then walked away without intervening. And the whole time, this random guy is still getting the crap seriously beaten out of him in the background. It was actually sort of funny, because I was obviously supposed to watch that scene and think, "Oh, poor Peter. His life is so hard!"
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 08:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 12:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 08:01 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-11 08:15 pm (UTC)throw me the whip indy!
Hi...
Date: 2005-01-12 01:16 am (UTC)Me: I would argue, instead, that her arc in the first film was realizing that she loved Peter, whereas in this film, she loves him the whole time. Her dating Jameson was a reaction to Peter's refusal to be her boyfriend, and I believe that, going through the engagement and up until the wedding, she never stopped hoping that he would burst in and pronounce his love for her. Even when she dismisses him after he finally comes to her play, she is still obviously not thrilled to be marrying Jameson. She seems more resigned to the fact that Peter would never change, than anything else. In the first film, M.J. is the one who had to change, to realize that Peter is the man she loves; in this film, however, Peter is the one who has to change for her. She firmly sets ground rules that he must abide if he wants her to let him into her life. And he gives up his very identity for her, abandoning his superhero self to be with her. What he is ignoring, however, is that SpiderMan is an essential part of himself, and he cannot be complete until he can integrate SpiderMan and a relationship with M.J. into his life. He cannot be a great superhero unless he allows himself to experience the love he so desires, and he cannot be happy with his love, unless he fulfills his superheroic acts, which he sees as his duty. Up until the end, Peter makes the tough decisions, both for himself and M.J., denying his and her own happiness, because he believes that must be sacrificed in order to be SpiderMan.
In the end, though, M.J. turns that around and takes control of the decision away from him. Over and over, he has saved her. She may not have superpowers, but she is still able to, in the end, save the hero, by showing him that being SpiderMan and being Peter Parker are not mutually exclusive. Again, I agree that Peter's journey is the important one here, and that she is in many ways mostly important in the narrative in how she reflects on Peter's life, but I find it crucial that she is the one who opens his eyes. She knew from the start that she loved him and wanted a relationship with him, and after sittly idly by, waiting for him to change, she takes the matter into her own hands at the end. Also, I found it very interesting that when Peter revealed who he really was, it all made sense to her. She wasn't shocked to death, because on a subconscious level, she already did know.
Culminating in the absolutely cringeworthy scene of her running to him in the wedding dress.
Call me a softie, but I had no problem with this scenario. I excuse it because it's a movie, and there's a long cinematic tradition of brides who are about to marry the wrong person, then running off at the last minute to marry the right one (or, as in The Graduate, running off with the right person after the marriage has taken place). It's a Big Dramatic Gesture, but I didn't mind it, because I chalked it up to an impulse decision. It also worked for me, because of the description of how she saved him at the end. There's always that struggle in comic book movies between not being sexist and yet at the same time, the fact that the hero has these superpowers, and of course the girl, who has none, will need to be rescued over and over again. By acknowledging that she doesn't have the physical strength to save herself or him from monsters, but that she does have the psychological strength and is capable of saving him in her own way, the film handled that issue perfectly, IMO.
Re: Hi...
Date: 2005-01-13 04:24 am (UTC)I just can't respect the MJ that's presented in the film.
continued...
Date: 2005-01-12 01:18 am (UTC)I remember some debates about whether Xander's refusal to marry Anya was really because he was still in love with Buffy, not because of the reasons Hell's Bells (and in fact the entire season) give. Leaving aside the fact that Xander hadn't shown any signs of still crushing on Buffy since late season 2, I thought this idea actually putting down his character, because it would suggest he was using and exploiting Anya and was always prepared to ditch her if Buffy had fallen in love with him. Same with MJ and Jameson Junior. Using someone's love as a consolation prize and being prepared to dump them the moment the genuine object of love changes his mind is cheap, cruel and exploitative. The fact that she dumped him on her own when making the decision herself isn't any sign of strength, either.
I've just read the JMS-written Astonishing Spiderman trades (for JMS' sake as much as for the character's sake originally, because as you know I'm a big Babylon 5 fan), and when he took over the storyline, he inherited a situation where Peter and MJ were separated. He brought them together again eventually, but his MJ didn't date or marry any default guys in the meantime. She sorted out how she felt about Peter by herself, and otherwise concentrated on her job as an actress. I like that MJ far better than the one in the movies. I can respect her, too, and see her as strong in her own right, without superpowers.
continued #2
Date: 2005-01-12 01:18 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-13 03:59 am (UTC)of course, the fact that it should never have had to go down to the wire bugs me, but given that it did, I think it was the lesser of two evils.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-01-13 04:21 am (UTC)Agreed, but even at that point, she could at least tell him to his face. She left a note. That's the opposite of class. And maybe not still be wearing the wedding dress when she tells Peter that she loves him.