Authority Figures -- Romance and Rank

[butterfly]

So, why does the idea of canon Sam/Jack annoy the hell out of me, while I'm vastly interested in Lee Adama/Laura Roslin?

The reason lies in Lee's speech in Bastille Day, where he makes it clear that he follows the law over his commanding officer (and implicitly, over the President's wishes as well). When Lee follows an order, he's making an informed decision. When Sam follows an order, she's following an order. We've seen that Sam will follow orders that she disagrees with morally (Scorched Earth) while Lee will not (Kobol's Last Gleaming, part 2).

So, while Sam may be a better soldier than Lee, Lee seems like a stronger person. And I like good people a hell of a lot more than I like good soldiers.

Both of them have allowed their personal feelings for one person to overrule better judgment, but with Lee, we got to see him realise that he was wrong (That one, with Starbuck lost on the planet), whereas it seemed like Sam's only revelation was that losing Jack would completely suck, especially so soon after losing Daniel (Paradise Lost).

And, of course, one of the reasons that I love BSG is that there are several interesting (and very different) women, making the burden of 'representing sisterhood' weigh less heavily. Whereas on SG-1, Sam is pretty much it and even before Janet died, there were just two. On BSG, we have Starbuck, Six, Boomer, Roslin, Cally, and Duella.

Comments

[moojja.livejournal.com]

Laura also have a lot of power over Lee not just b/c of the command structure, but b/c of force of personality. She has this mentoring relationship with Lee that Sam/Jack lacks.

I prefer Lee/Laura though, b/c while Laura holds most of the power in the relationship, I think Lee can hold his own without losing his own personality or ethos.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think Lee can hold his own without losing his own personality or ethos.

Exactly!

[ilanabean42.livejournal.com]

See, it's because of that mentoring relationship that the pairing squicks me. It's too much like a mother/son relationship, especially given that they've set up a bit of UST between Roslin and Adama (Sr.), and that's one of my major squicks.

So does that mean you think Sam would lose her personality if she ever got together with Jack? I suppose I can see that happening, given how the SG-1 writers treat the pairing. In fanfic it can be okay, but canon is iffier. I'm not saying I like Sam/Jack better, just that it doesn't bother me, while Lee/Laura does.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

So does that mean you think Sam would lose her personality if she ever got together with Jack? I suppose I can see that happening, given how the SG-1 writers treat the pairing. In fanfic it can be okay, but canon is iffier. I'm not saying I like Sam/Jack better, just that it doesn't bother me, while Lee/Laura does.

Honestly, I think that Sam's canon feelings have already compromised her as a person. That's a large part of why I don't like her as much as I'd like to. I hate that she made the bomb in Scorched Earth, knowing that Hammond would be against it and knowing that she personally felt it to be the wrong thing to do. But Jack wanted her to, so she did. I hate that so much. I hate the way she acted in Threads. I hate that when Jack gave command over to her in The Lost City, her first action as a commanding officer was to push Jack to talk about his possible feelings for her. I hate her saying to her Jack-vision in Grace that she would leave the military for him.

Putting the two of them in a relationship wouldn't tarnish her, because she's already shown that her feelings will get in the way. It would tarnish Jack, who has thus far managed to walk a very thin line.

[ilanabean42.livejournal.com]

In Scorched Earth, I thought it was more that she was following his orders as a commanding officer, but it's been a while since I saw the episode, so I could be misremembering. In general, though, I think Sam's suffered a lot of character assassination for the benefit of the Sam/Jack plotline, which is sad because I really like her some of the time.

Hasn't Jack ever been compromised by his feelings, whatever they happen to be, for Sam? There's the big example of Upgrades, and I could've sworn there were others. He doesn't cross the line as much as Sam seems to, but he doesn't always manage to walk it perfectly.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

In Scorched Earth, I thought it was more that she was following his orders as a commanding officer, but it's been a while since I saw the episode, so I could be misremembering. In general, though, I think Sam's suffered a lot of character assassination for the benefit of the Sam/Jack plotline, which is sad because I really like her some of the time.

But she knew that Jack's commanding officer was against the idea. In the CoC, general trumps colonel. Her loyalty to Jack was stronger than both her moral viewpoint and her loyalty to the Air Force. I just... relaly hate that scene. And yeah, Sam's suffered a lot for the storyline, which a large part of why I hate the storyline -- it makes Sam a weaker character.

Hasn't Jack ever been compromised by his feelings, whatever they happen to be, for Sam? There's the big example of Upgrades, and I could've sworn there were others. He doesn't cross the line as much as Sam seems to, but he doesn't always manage to walk it perfectly.

When did he cross a line in Upgrades? He stayed for her, and Daniel and Teal'c stayed for them. Jack was not the only person there ready to die rather than lose a teammate. They all care 'more than they should'.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

"I think Sam's suffered a lot of character assassination for the benefit of the Sam/Jack plotline, which is sad because I really like her some of the time."

You know, I see this sentiment a lot and I can't really get behind it because if it has been "assassinating" her character it's been doing such from the get-go or not at all.

Case in point, in the S1 episode 'The First Commandment' Sam and Daniel discuss Sam's ex-fiance Jonas, who's currently under the delusion (or maybe, better said, under the impression there is no difference between the delusion and the reality so long as he can go through with what he says) that he is a God in the same vein of the Goa'uld. In this episode, the sixth one of the entire show, sam says a number of things that blatantly come back over and over again in relation to her romantic identity arc.

The exchange goes as follows:

DANIEL
Well, what did you see in him?

CARTER
(grimaces) I dunno. I guess I've always had a soft spot for the lunatic fringe. He was…He was charming.

DANIEL
Well, that's good. Charming is good.

CARTER
I don't know, I should be more surprised by this than I am, but I'm not. You know, he had this in him Daniel. Too many years of black ops.

DANIEL
(looks over his shoulder at Jack) Well, that's typical of our government's evaluation of soldiers. The crazier they are, the more extreme the situation they seem to be put into.

This exchange, like Jack's exchange with Daniel at the end of S1 regarding (the first) Alternate!DoctorCarter and a number of exchanges Daniel has had but especially the S2 'Secrets' exchange with Teal'c as well as exchanges Teal'c has had with all three of them regarding women, establishes that Sam has a romantic type. She's attracted to the fringe, the sort that she feels should be able to heal but is destined not to be able to. This is reinforced with Narim (whom she first meets in a time of crisis and whom eventually betrays his planet -- and that's what it was -- for her) and Orlin, who's fringy all in his own right even by Ascended standards.

[As a side note, Jack's type is those he's pre-determined to be distant from. See: Sara, Laira, Sam. Teal'c's is strong, mission-based women, mirrors of his own drive whom he's *going* to butt heads with because of. See: Dra'yauc, Ishta, Shan -- I can't remember how to spell it. And Daniel's is, of course, the incredibly strong-willed women, usually in the form of Goa'uld but not always. See: Sha're before Amaunet, Ke'ra, the Goa'uld.

Interestingly enough Teal'c and Daniel essentially have the same taste in types of women though due to differing focuses of their personalities it plays out completely differently.]

To get back on track, Jack is, of course, Sam's biggest failure in that regards because for one he isn't nearly as damaged as he seems -- a lot of that damage was already fixed by Skaara and Daniel during the first Abydos mission -- and for another his own type -- that of required distance -- is counterproductive to her type.Perhaps a different woman would have given up that particular ghost long ago, long before Grace -- which was only a false surrender -- and long before Threads, as we know that she did eventually disentangle herself from the mess that was Jonas Hanson, but there's other factors keeping her there as well.

And she certainly isn't the only one of the four that refuses to give up their particular ghosts in regards to romance.

- Andrea.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Teal'c's romance record doesn't thrill me either. Mostly because he doesn't, oh, I don't know, feel the end to end one romance before beginning another?

[saeva.livejournal.com]

Teal'c's romantic record doesn't thrill me either, though for entirely different reasons. In regards to him not ending one romantic relationship before beginning another I'm not sure that's accurate.

For all we know -- and there's things to suggest this -- he was by all means technically divorced the moment he left Apophis's service. We do know that the state of that marriage didn't stop his (ex)wife from remarrying. Different cultures have different standards for marriage, separation, and divorce and since Teal'c's behavior is nothing if not consistent. Since CJ, who plays Teal'c, is the one writing most of the episodes in which Teal'c has a chance to get his sex on, I'm thinking that the behaviour in this regards is just a reflection of how CJ (and the other writers) see Jaffa culture.

The one circumstance where I can see that as iffy is Ishta and the woman from Affinity, but since the WfA (who's name I cannot place for the life of me at the moment) had a boyfriend the issue of fidelity here is a moot point I'd suppose. He was doing something wrong by our standards one way or another -- either due to Ishta or due to WfA's boyfriend. Though, again, the mere process of leaving him might be considered a divorce/separation from Teal'c's standards and that was a failure to communicate.

Hmm. It still doesn't thrill me because OMG STUPID! Conflicting missions! He really likes the complicated ones, doesn't he?

- Andrea.