Authority Figures -- Romance and Rank

[butterfly]

So, why does the idea of canon Sam/Jack annoy the hell out of me, while I'm vastly interested in Lee Adama/Laura Roslin?

The reason lies in Lee's speech in Bastille Day, where he makes it clear that he follows the law over his commanding officer (and implicitly, over the President's wishes as well). When Lee follows an order, he's making an informed decision. When Sam follows an order, she's following an order. We've seen that Sam will follow orders that she disagrees with morally (Scorched Earth) while Lee will not (Kobol's Last Gleaming, part 2).

So, while Sam may be a better soldier than Lee, Lee seems like a stronger person. And I like good people a hell of a lot more than I like good soldiers.

Both of them have allowed their personal feelings for one person to overrule better judgment, but with Lee, we got to see him realise that he was wrong (That one, with Starbuck lost on the planet), whereas it seemed like Sam's only revelation was that losing Jack would completely suck, especially so soon after losing Daniel (Paradise Lost).

And, of course, one of the reasons that I love BSG is that there are several interesting (and very different) women, making the burden of 'representing sisterhood' weigh less heavily. Whereas on SG-1, Sam is pretty much it and even before Janet died, there were just two. On BSG, we have Starbuck, Six, Boomer, Roslin, Cally, and Duella.

Comments

[ilanabean42.livejournal.com]

That's funny because I'm mostly apathetic about Sam/Jack, but Lee/Laura annoys me. Granted, it's more of a squick issue than anything else, but Sam and Jack have a pretty big age gap between them too, so I don't know if that explains it. I guess it's just that Sam and Jack seem to have a relationship more like equals despite Jack being her commanding office, whereas Roslin has a lot more power than Lee, and it seems to me like she relates to him less as a friend and more as a subordinate (but this is, of course, subject to interpretation).

[moojja.livejournal.com]

Laura also have a lot of power over Lee not just b/c of the command structure, but b/c of force of personality. She has this mentoring relationship with Lee that Sam/Jack lacks.

I prefer Lee/Laura though, b/c while Laura holds most of the power in the relationship, I think Lee can hold his own without losing his own personality or ethos.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think Lee can hold his own without losing his own personality or ethos.

Exactly!

[ilanabean42.livejournal.com]

See, it's because of that mentoring relationship that the pairing squicks me. It's too much like a mother/son relationship, especially given that they've set up a bit of UST between Roslin and Adama (Sr.), and that's one of my major squicks.

So does that mean you think Sam would lose her personality if she ever got together with Jack? I suppose I can see that happening, given how the SG-1 writers treat the pairing. In fanfic it can be okay, but canon is iffier. I'm not saying I like Sam/Jack better, just that it doesn't bother me, while Lee/Laura does.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

So does that mean you think Sam would lose her personality if she ever got together with Jack? I suppose I can see that happening, given how the SG-1 writers treat the pairing. In fanfic it can be okay, but canon is iffier. I'm not saying I like Sam/Jack better, just that it doesn't bother me, while Lee/Laura does.

Honestly, I think that Sam's canon feelings have already compromised her as a person. That's a large part of why I don't like her as much as I'd like to. I hate that she made the bomb in Scorched Earth, knowing that Hammond would be against it and knowing that she personally felt it to be the wrong thing to do. But Jack wanted her to, so she did. I hate that so much. I hate the way she acted in Threads. I hate that when Jack gave command over to her in The Lost City, her first action as a commanding officer was to push Jack to talk about his possible feelings for her. I hate her saying to her Jack-vision in Grace that she would leave the military for him.

Putting the two of them in a relationship wouldn't tarnish her, because she's already shown that her feelings will get in the way. It would tarnish Jack, who has thus far managed to walk a very thin line.

[ilanabean42.livejournal.com]

In Scorched Earth, I thought it was more that she was following his orders as a commanding officer, but it's been a while since I saw the episode, so I could be misremembering. In general, though, I think Sam's suffered a lot of character assassination for the benefit of the Sam/Jack plotline, which is sad because I really like her some of the time.

Hasn't Jack ever been compromised by his feelings, whatever they happen to be, for Sam? There's the big example of Upgrades, and I could've sworn there were others. He doesn't cross the line as much as Sam seems to, but he doesn't always manage to walk it perfectly.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

In Scorched Earth, I thought it was more that she was following his orders as a commanding officer, but it's been a while since I saw the episode, so I could be misremembering. In general, though, I think Sam's suffered a lot of character assassination for the benefit of the Sam/Jack plotline, which is sad because I really like her some of the time.

But she knew that Jack's commanding officer was against the idea. In the CoC, general trumps colonel. Her loyalty to Jack was stronger than both her moral viewpoint and her loyalty to the Air Force. I just... relaly hate that scene. And yeah, Sam's suffered a lot for the storyline, which a large part of why I hate the storyline -- it makes Sam a weaker character.

Hasn't Jack ever been compromised by his feelings, whatever they happen to be, for Sam? There's the big example of Upgrades, and I could've sworn there were others. He doesn't cross the line as much as Sam seems to, but he doesn't always manage to walk it perfectly.

When did he cross a line in Upgrades? He stayed for her, and Daniel and Teal'c stayed for them. Jack was not the only person there ready to die rather than lose a teammate. They all care 'more than they should'.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

"I think Sam's suffered a lot of character assassination for the benefit of the Sam/Jack plotline, which is sad because I really like her some of the time."

You know, I see this sentiment a lot and I can't really get behind it because if it has been "assassinating" her character it's been doing such from the get-go or not at all.

Case in point, in the S1 episode 'The First Commandment' Sam and Daniel discuss Sam's ex-fiance Jonas, who's currently under the delusion (or maybe, better said, under the impression there is no difference between the delusion and the reality so long as he can go through with what he says) that he is a God in the same vein of the Goa'uld. In this episode, the sixth one of the entire show, sam says a number of things that blatantly come back over and over again in relation to her romantic identity arc.

The exchange goes as follows:

DANIEL
Well, what did you see in him?

CARTER
(grimaces) I dunno. I guess I've always had a soft spot for the lunatic fringe. He was…He was charming.

DANIEL
Well, that's good. Charming is good.

CARTER
I don't know, I should be more surprised by this than I am, but I'm not. You know, he had this in him Daniel. Too many years of black ops.

DANIEL
(looks over his shoulder at Jack) Well, that's typical of our government's evaluation of soldiers. The crazier they are, the more extreme the situation they seem to be put into.

This exchange, like Jack's exchange with Daniel at the end of S1 regarding (the first) Alternate!DoctorCarter and a number of exchanges Daniel has had but especially the S2 'Secrets' exchange with Teal'c as well as exchanges Teal'c has had with all three of them regarding women, establishes that Sam has a romantic type. She's attracted to the fringe, the sort that she feels should be able to heal but is destined not to be able to. This is reinforced with Narim (whom she first meets in a time of crisis and whom eventually betrays his planet -- and that's what it was -- for her) and Orlin, who's fringy all in his own right even by Ascended standards.

[As a side note, Jack's type is those he's pre-determined to be distant from. See: Sara, Laira, Sam. Teal'c's is strong, mission-based women, mirrors of his own drive whom he's *going* to butt heads with because of. See: Dra'yauc, Ishta, Shan -- I can't remember how to spell it. And Daniel's is, of course, the incredibly strong-willed women, usually in the form of Goa'uld but not always. See: Sha're before Amaunet, Ke'ra, the Goa'uld.

Interestingly enough Teal'c and Daniel essentially have the same taste in types of women though due to differing focuses of their personalities it plays out completely differently.]

To get back on track, Jack is, of course, Sam's biggest failure in that regards because for one he isn't nearly as damaged as he seems -- a lot of that damage was already fixed by Skaara and Daniel during the first Abydos mission -- and for another his own type -- that of required distance -- is counterproductive to her type.Perhaps a different woman would have given up that particular ghost long ago, long before Grace -- which was only a false surrender -- and long before Threads, as we know that she did eventually disentangle herself from the mess that was Jonas Hanson, but there's other factors keeping her there as well.

And she certainly isn't the only one of the four that refuses to give up their particular ghosts in regards to romance.

- Andrea.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Teal'c's romance record doesn't thrill me either. Mostly because he doesn't, oh, I don't know, feel the end to end one romance before beginning another?

[saeva.livejournal.com]

Teal'c's romantic record doesn't thrill me either, though for entirely different reasons. In regards to him not ending one romantic relationship before beginning another I'm not sure that's accurate.

For all we know -- and there's things to suggest this -- he was by all means technically divorced the moment he left Apophis's service. We do know that the state of that marriage didn't stop his (ex)wife from remarrying. Different cultures have different standards for marriage, separation, and divorce and since Teal'c's behavior is nothing if not consistent. Since CJ, who plays Teal'c, is the one writing most of the episodes in which Teal'c has a chance to get his sex on, I'm thinking that the behaviour in this regards is just a reflection of how CJ (and the other writers) see Jaffa culture.

The one circumstance where I can see that as iffy is Ishta and the woman from Affinity, but since the WfA (who's name I cannot place for the life of me at the moment) had a boyfriend the issue of fidelity here is a moot point I'd suppose. He was doing something wrong by our standards one way or another -- either due to Ishta or due to WfA's boyfriend. Though, again, the mere process of leaving him might be considered a divorce/separation from Teal'c's standards and that was a failure to communicate.

Hmm. It still doesn't thrill me because OMG STUPID! Conflicting missions! He really likes the complicated ones, doesn't he?

- Andrea.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, I really don't see Sam and Jack acting like equals -- They're still on a "sir", "Carter" basis after eight years, even while they're on leave. On the few occasions that Sam's tried to go the 'Jack' route, Jack has completely smacked her down (Fragile Balance and Grace come to mind).

Whereas with Laura and Lee, it seems like there's this mutual level of respect and trust. They both care deeply about the well-being of the people of the fleet. They're both big-picture people. I can see Lee becoming the President, some day (after Roslin dies... *is sad*), because I think that he has the integrity and the ruthlessness needed.

[ilanabean42.livejournal.com]

I don't really remember Fragile Balance and Grace, so I can't really comment on that, but Sam and Jack seem to be friends, not just have that working relationship. They're somewhat formal when it comes to titles, but other than that they don't seem to really respect the boundaries they're supposed to have. Even if you don't ship them (which I don't particularly), you have to admit that they're closer than they should be by military rules.

Lee and Laura respect each other, definitely, and they have a lot in common, but they're not friends, and they're not equals. Maybe over time they could build more of an even relationship, but right now they still seem to be keeping something of a professional distance.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I don't really remember Fragile Balance and Grace, so I can't really comment on that, but Sam and Jack seem to be friends, not just have that working relationship. They're somewhat formal when it comes to titles, but other than that they don't seem to really respect the boundaries they're supposed to have. Even if you don't ship them (which I don't particularly), you have to admit that they're closer than they should be by military rules.

Yeah, Jack's close to all his team. But of his team, Carter's really the only one that he enforces a bit of a distance with -- there's the implication in Ascension that he's never been to her house before, there's her level of uncomfortableness when she's just dropping by his house in Lost City. The fact that, after four years of knowing her, neither Jack nor Daniel knew that she liked Diet Coke in Upgrades.

Then then we have the times when Sam does cross over that line, and Jack invariably pushes her back to the other side.

In Grace, she calls him 'Jack' when she's waking up, and he repeats it in this disbelieving voice, so she immediately corrects herself. I just keep going back to the end of Season 1 and Jack's stunned reaction to the idea that he and Carter were hooked up in the AU -- "It's against regulations." The fact that even when he's stuck in a time loop and knows that she won't remember anything, he still a) retires first and b) makes certain to kiss her just before the loop restarts. Honestly, I can't see our Jack ever getting involved with a subordinate officer. He has too much respect for the Air Force. Which is also why I will probably never write Jack/Daniel that isn't set post-retirement or other extenuating circumstances.

[ilanabean42.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I can't see our Jack ever getting involved with a subordinate officer. He has too much respect for the Air Force

This is precisely why I don't ship anything in SG-1 (except things like Daniel/Sha're that don't really count). I can see members of SG-1 having romantic feelings for each other in various combinations, but I can't see anything actually happening without some major extenuating circumstances.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, I adore Daniel/Sha're! Beautifully tragic love gets to me. It's almost a shame that he didn't mention her at all in S8, yet at the same time, it's nice to think that he's finally getting a chance to move on. I'm torn.

[ilanabean42.livejournal.com]

I was disappointed that we didn't get more exploration of that relationship, if only because I love Daniel and I love angst, and that was a great tragic love story. (There's a reason Forever in a Day is my favorite episode.) I don't know that they should have dwelled on it, but I wish they'd dealt with Sha're a little more while she was still around, and then shortle after her death instead of just bringing her up once or twice when it was useful to the plot.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I really like what they did with the arc. I like that it didn't consume Daniel, because he really is the kind of guy who can be completely distracted by shiny new knowledge. Love him, but it's true. And I think that what we did get with Sha're was quality and contained all the elements of tragic romance without pushing it on us.

I love that her name is the first thing that Daniel remembered all on his own.

[ilanabean42.livejournal.com]

I'm glad it didn't get overwhleming, but I would have liked a bit more than what we got, since a lot of times they seemed to just forget her completely. The only time it really bothered me was when I watched Need for the first time and was yelling at the screen as Daniel completely failed to mention Sha're. That was only the first time, though, since they did mention her in the end, and it made sense the way they did it.

I love that too. That scene where he finds out again that she's dead absolutely kills me...

[simonesa.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Jack's close to all his team. But of his team, Carter's really the only one that he enforces a bit of a distance with -- there's the implication in Ascension that he's never been to her house before, there's her level of uncomfortableness when she's just dropping by his house in Lost City. The fact that, after four years of knowing her, neither Jack nor Daniel knew that she liked Diet Coke in Upgrades.

Do you think this is because she is the only one on his team that is military? He is bound by rules and regulations that he is not with Teal'c and Daniel. He is watching after her as much as protecting himself.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Do you think this is because she is the only one on his team that is military? He is bound by rules and regulations that he is not with Teal'c and Daniel. He is watching after her as much as protecting himself.

Well, and she's the only one who pays attention to his attempts to distance himself. He tried that with Daniel in the very beginning of Children of the Gods (The walk-right past like you don't care approach) and Daniel just kinda ignored it.

[simonesa.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with the comment above about Lee/Laura and Squick. At first I thought you meant the elder Adama and I was oddly OK with that. Could even go there, but when I realized you meant Apollo an uncontrollable shudder went through me.

The thing with Sam/Jack is not only about my being a die hard slasher, it is that it really bugs me that we have this really intelligent, strong female character and naturally she has to fall for her commanding officer. Of course, it bugs me not at all that Daniel should fall for him. ;-)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with the comment above about Lee/Laura and Squick. At first I thought you meant the elder Adama and I was oddly OK with that. Could even go there, but when I realized you meant Apollo an uncontrollable shudder went through me.

We're squicked by what we're squicked by. I find them interesting and very much not a squick. And, of course, I really can't get behind Apollo/Starbuck because she was engaged to his brother, which squicks me.

The thing with Sam/Jack is not only about my being a die hard slasher, it is that it really bugs me that we have this really intelligent, strong female character and naturally she has to fall for her commanding officer. Of course, it bugs me not at all that Daniel should fall for him.

For me, there's such an enormous difference in how Sam and Daniel react to Jack. Even more than the difference between 'sir' and 'Jack' imply. There's also the fact that with Daniel, Jack doesn't mind liberties being taken -- compare Daniel sitting without waiting for Jack's permission in Lockdown to Jack's reaction to Teal'c doing the same in Icon. Jack isn't insulted when Daniel treats him like an equal instead of a superior officer.

[simonesa.livejournal.com]

I really can't get behind Apollo/Starbuck because she was engaged to his brother, which squicks me.

I can't either. I think the main reason that I have not been able to get passionate about BSG is that I do not find anyone there that peaks my interest. I have come to like the show. It is an interesting show. I just don't feel particularly strong about it. For instance, if it were cancelled, I would not really care one way or the other.

As for Jack/Daniel, just to share, I was watching the replay of Message in a Bottle that aired this afternoon on SciFi and there was a great moment. When they finally get to talk to this alien being that has Jack pinned to the wall in the gateroom, it talks through Jack that Jack wants to live while looking directly at Daniel. Hmmm.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I really like the Cylons, so far. But yeah, I wouldn't cry if the show got cancelled.

Oh! That is a nice little moment. Cool.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Amanda Tapping's repeatedly sad that she feels the same way.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Smart woman.

[simonesa.livejournal.com]

I did not realize. Good on her. I realize all the need to develop romantic relationships in the name of drama, but I just wish they had left Sam alone.

[wesley-pryce.livejournal.com]

So, why does the idea of canon Sam/Jack annoy...

Because it's not Jack Daniels?

They may be J/D to everyone else, but when you've known them as long as I have they are Jack Daniels... it's a joke

[siinik.livejournal.com]

I haven't really seen much Lee/Laura since he got all interested in Starbuck, but you've hit on the reason it never squicked me.

I also think that there's been less of a shippy vibe between them since Roslyn has started to feel more comfortable in the role of president. She doesn't seem as personable with him now, as she did during, and directly after, the initial attack.