The Phantom Menace...

[butterfly]

May or may not have made me cry.

In about five places.

It's just... he's so sweet and young and cute. And then he falls and becomes Darth Vader and I'm sad about it. And the total suckiness of Qui-Gon dying like that was made very clear to me, because Qui-Gon got how important the 'mom' thing was to Anakin. And Obi-Wan didn't. Because he never got to see Anakin with his mom and didn't understand.

And I'm completely abusing italics but... it was sad. It really was. He was such a sweet little kid.

Was so incredibly impressed by Natalie as Padme/Amidala this time around. She looks like she wants to cry, just before she casts the vote of 'no confidence' in the current Chancellor, and she's smart enough to be wary of Palpatine's promises. Brave and principled and god, how much does it suck for her that she was the person who put Palpatine in power. Though, if it hadn't been her, it would have been someone else -- Palpatine seems pretty flexible at this point. He's clearly surprised by some of the actions that Padme takes, but he manages to work them into his plan nicely... bastard.

And yeah, Obi-Wan so completely wasn't ready to be Anakin's Master. And yet, I'm uncertain as to who would have done a better job -- if the Council is any indication, then he's the person most likely to trust Anakin and Anakin needs that. I do wonder what might have happened if Qui-Gon had lived. Qui-Gon was actually at a place in his life where he could play father to someone, whereas Obi-Wan isn't ready to do that until Luke. Still, Obi-Wan isn't cold to Anakin at all -- he's quiet and calm at the end, but he does put his hand on Anakin's shoulder (after the Chancellor comes over to talk to Anakin -- is Obi-Wan's mistrust of Palpatine already there?).

And we don't know how Qui-Gon would have reacted to Anakin screwing up, since he, you know, died before finding out about Anakin in the cockpit of the Naboo ship. And he was fairly icy to Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan disagreed with him. Then again, he considered Anakin the Chosen One, which might have changed his reactions (and wouldn't that have been a further boot to the face for Obi-Wan, who's already been rejected once in favor of Anakin).

Comments

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

Ooohhh--I'd never really given any consideration to what things might've been like for Anakin if Qui-Gon had lived, but I think you're right. I think it would've been very hard on Obi-Wan, but I think if Qui-Gon had been Anakin's master Anakin might not've turned to the dark side.

I wonder if during all that time alone in the desert (communing with Qui Gon!) Obi-Wan came to that conclusion, as well.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Ooohhh--I'd never really given any consideration to what things might've been like for Anakin if Qui-Gon had lived, but I think you're right. I think it would've been very hard on Obi-Wan, but I think if Qui-Gon had been Anakin's master Anakin might not've turned to the dark side.

And if Qui-Gon had been Anakin's Master, then Obi-Wan would have felt better about the relationship that he clearly wanted to have with Anakin -- he wanted to play big brother, not father at all. If their relationship hadn't been confused by those conflicting desires, it would have been even stronger. If, of course, they became friends at all and Obi-Wan worked past his resentment. I would want them to -- they work extremely well together, as partners and friends, and Anakin is even more reckless than Obi-Wan, as far as Padawans go.

I wonder if during all that time alone in the desert (communing with Qui Gon!) Obi-Wan came to that conclusion, as well.

I think that Obi-Wan came to the conclusion that anyone would have been a better master. But he carried that pain and guilt around... probably longer than a Jedi should. Because of the way he talks about Anakin and the way he talks about Darth Vader. Because of his warmth around Luke (I adored seeing Obi-Wan hold little baby Luke -- the cuteness!).

[storydivagirl.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting thought about Qui-Gon and how his influence would've affect Anakin - because you're right. Obi-Wan is much more like an older brother - he even says that's how he views Anakin, as a brother, in the third film.

Despite some of the really bad dialogue, the one thing the three movies do well, is really play up the whole tragedy through the simplest things - like Padme's vote, etc.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting thought about Qui-Gon and how his influence would've affect Anakin - because you're right. Obi-Wan is much more like an older brother - he even says that's how he views Anakin, as a brother, in the third film.

Of course, if Qui-Gon had lived, Obi-Wan might have resented Anakin, instead of viewing training him as fulfilling his Master's last wish. It's a complicated question, wondering the 'might have been's.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

It's just... he's so sweet and young and cute.

Yes, he is. And the goodbye scene with Shmi makes me misty-eyed especially. "Don't look back." But he does. He always does. And you think: how can he help it? "Then we'll see each other again."

Was so incredibly impressed by Natalie as Padme/Amidala this time around. She looks like she wants to cry, just before she casts the vote of 'no confidence' in the current Chancellor, and she's smart enough to be wary of Palpatine's promises. Brave and principled and god, how much does it suck for her that she was the person who put Palpatine in power.

That's part of her own tragedy - she so wants to do the right thing for her people, and she can't just sit around there and let her world be occupied while a committee is put together... but by taking his advice, she hands him over the galaxy. And yet, how could she have not acted? She had to save her people.

Though, if it hadn't been her, it would have been someone else -- Palpatine seems pretty flexible at this point. He's clearly surprised by some of the actions that Padme takes, but he manages to work them into his plan nicely... bastard.

I think it surprised him that she went back to Naboo, yes, but as you say, he worked it into his plans. He was in a win-win position by orchestrating the invasion of his own home world. (A trial run for the war he organizes later on.) The invasion got him his sympathy vote, and afterwards, whether Padme succeeds or not, he's elected. Undoubtedly if she had perished on Naboo the sympathy for him would have been even stronger, and as he controlled Nute Gunray, he would have just gotten rid of him afterwards.

And yeah, Obi-Wan so completely wasn't ready to be Anakin's Master.

He went from being a Padawan straight so someone who had to fulfill the function of Master and father both, and the second is nothing the Jedi Temple could have prepared him for, because the Jedi don't have a family structure, and no other padawan but Anakin would have been looking for a parent.

And yet, I'm uncertain as to who would have done a better job -- if the Council is any indication, then he's the person most likely to trust Anakin and Anakin needs that.

Yes. I don't think Yoda could have done a better job - he had made his initial distrust even clearer, and though Anakin respects him - he does ask Yoda for advice as late as RotS, after all - he does not relate to him emotionally at all. Whereas with Obi-Wan, there was the knowledge that they had both cared about Qui-Gon to start out with, and Anakin had seen Obi-Wan grieve. (I don't think he regards someone like Yoda or Mace, who tell him it's wrong to miss his mother, as capable of that.)

I do wonder what might have happened if Qui-Gon had lived. Qui-Gon was actually at a place in his life where he could play father to someone, whereas Obi-Wan isn't ready to do that until Luke. Still, Obi-Wan isn't cold to Anakin at all -- he's quiet and calm at the end, but he does put his hand on Anakin's shoulder (after the Chancellor comes over to talk to Anakin -- is Obi-Wan's mistrust of Palpatine already there?).

They look like two orphans there during that burial scene, don't they? I'm not sure Obi-Wan distrusts Palpatine this early - he has no reason to (I doubt Padawan Obi-Wan paid much attention to the Senate, so I'd be surprised if he had known more about the Senator from Naboo than his name). But Palpatine clearly starts making the moves and inserting himself as a rival father figure here. If Qui-Gon had raised Anakin, I doubt that would have worked out so well (for Palpatine), not because of any deficiency in Obi-Wan, simply because as you say Qui-Gon could do the father thing due to the age factor, knew about Shmi, and had already started to bond with Anakin who trusted him without that slight element of insecurity which had to be there after he heard Obi-Wan make his "can't you see the boy is dangerous" remark.

I thought that this was actually while the whole duel is called "Duel of the Fates" on the sound track - with Qui-Gon's death, Obi-Wan becomes Anakin's Master, and they become each other's fates...

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yes, he is. And the goodbye scene with Shmi makes me misty-eyed especially. "Don't look back." But he does. He always does. And you think: how can he help it? "Then we'll see each other again."

And how this echoes with Anakin and Luke, at the end of the Imperial Trilogy -- Anakin knows how important convincing Luke that saving who Anakin is was more important than saving Anakin's life, because he didn't learn that lesson from the death of his mother.

That's part of her own tragedy - she so wants to do the right thing for her people, and she can't just sit around there and let her world be occupied while a committee is put together... but by taking his advice, she hands him over the galaxy. And yet, how could she have not acted? She had to save her people.

She really was in a no-win situation. No matter what happened on Naboo, Palpatine would win.

He went from being a Padawan straight so someone who had to fulfill the function of Master and father both, and the second is nothing the Jedi Temple could have prepared him for, because the Jedi don't have a family structure, and no other padawan but Anakin would have been looking for a parent.

It really was a unique situation, as presented to us. Obi-Wan really didn't have much of a chance, just because he didn't have the right kind of experience to train Anakin (but, again, what Jedi would?).

They look like two orphans there during that burial scene, don't they? I'm not sure Obi-Wan distrusts Palpatine this early - he has no reason to (I doubt Padawan Obi-Wan paid much attention to the Senate, so I'd be surprised if he had known more about the Senator from Naboo than his name). But Palpatine clearly starts making the moves and inserting himself as a rival father figure here. If Qui-Gon had raised Anakin, I doubt that would have worked out so well (for Palpatine), not because of any deficiency in Obi-Wan, simply because as you say Qui-Gon could do the father thing due to the age factor, knew about Shmi, and had already started to bond with Anakin who trusted him without that slight element of insecurity which had to be there after he heard Obi-Wan make his "can't you see the boy is dangerous" remark.

And yet, despite all that, Anakin clearly does prefer Obi-Wan. It's Obi-Wan's approval that he seeks in AotC. He thinks of the world of Obi-Wan ("As wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu.") and wants Obi-Wan to show that he cares about Anakin just as much (in the hanger, when Obi-Wan tells Anakin, "Good job," we see Anakin start to smile, and then Obi-Wan adds, "My young padawan." and Anakin immediately loses the smile).

And it's always when Obi-Wan isn't there that Anakin makes his darkest choices.

It's Obi-Wan that Anakin always wants to prove himself to. Twenty years down the road, in ANH, he's still trying to prove himself to Obi-Wan ("I am the master now."). And I love the slight change at the end of RotJ, the way that they have Hayden's Anakin enter, not quite able to lock eyes with the man that he killed, the man that he did care so much about.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And how this echoes with Anakin and Luke, at the end of the Imperial Trilogy -- Anakin knows how important convincing Luke that saving who Anakin is was more important than saving Anakin's life, because he didn't learn that lesson from the death of his mother.

Yes, there is a strong echo of Shmi's death in Anakin's, only this time instead of setting more darkness in motion, it's a moment of grace and salvation.

And yet, despite all that, Anakin clearly does prefer Obi-Wan.

Oh yes. If you had asked him at any point after TPM whether he'd have wanted another Master, including dead Qui-Gon, I think he'd have declined. Once he had started to bond with Obi-Wan, that was that.

And it's always when Obi-Wan isn't there that Anakin makes his darkest choices.

True. I also don't think it's a coincidence Obi-Wan is the first who is supposed to get executed by Order 66. Palpatine saw early in RotS that Anakin wasn't ready to leave Obi-Wan behind, and undoubtedly made that a priority. Even at the end, Obi-Wan is the first to ignite his lightsaber, Anakin doesn't draw his until after. At this point, they were ready to kill each other in theory - I mean, Anakin had heard Palpatine say "every Jedi, including your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, is now an enemy of the Republic", and nodded, and Yoda had made it quite clear to Obi-Wan he was supposed to kill Anakin despite his own feelings - but in practice, face to face, it was more convoluted.

It's Obi-Wan that Anakin always wants to prove himself to. Twenty years down the road, in ANH, he's still trying to prove himself to Obi-Wan ("I am the master now.").

Quite. No Stormtroopers, either; this is something far too personal. And I think this why he keeps bringing up Obi-Wan with Luke, too. Question: what do you think became of Obi-Wan's light saber? Did Anakin keep it?

[logovo.livejournal.com]

Just to let you know, I'm greedily devouring all your RotS posts. Excellent reading.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thank you! That's very cool to know.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

I lost your post I actually wanted to comment on, so it will go there - I love all your observations about Star Wars, and I often wonder myself, how would it affect the story if Qui-Gon had lived and trained Anakin himself.

What I wanted to say:

I rewatched all movies after seeing the episode III, even though I like it less than you, it really holds evrything together now, and the "Imperial Trilogy" looks so differernt now, that I know who is under that black helmet. And I was so much happier to watch the Return of Jedi, and the confrontation between Luke, Darth Vader and the Emperor...