Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows

[butterfly]

I hear that JK wrote the epilogue years before the rest of the book? It shows.

So, apparently the entire point of Tonks was to fall in love, pine, get married, have a kid, and then die off-screen in such a casual manner that I didn't realize she was dead until pages later. Well, that seems like a waste of a perfectly good character. Not to mention how hard it is to believe in a relationship being healthy when we mostly see it making the people trying to have it absolutely miserable (Tonks in HBP and then Lupin in DH).

I've definitely had confirmation that JKR's idea of what Romantic Love means is not only not mine, but is also something that strikes me as unhealthy and broken.

I'm not surprised by this, mind, as I've had that thought in my head ever since Hermione attacked Ron with tiny birds.

Ron has apparently learned nothing about history and the power of belief and words, as he encourages his children to hate Slytherin.

There are quite a few things I liked about the book -- Luna and Neville stood out as particularly strong characters, I really enjoyed the backstory on Dumbledore, and Lily and Snape as childhood best friends was both adorable and unexpected. Narcissa and Lucius rallying around their son was wonderful. On the whole, though... my overall feeling afterwards was one of 'meh'.

Mostly, I'm wondering which parts in particular made the Doctor cry, which is a sad commentary on how unattached I am to what happens in much of the book.

Comments

[rathanylakan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, to me that epilogue did not seem like a 'happy, happy, everything is ok now' type ending. It seemed to me to be more of a 'festering hatreds, prejudgice and bullying will continue and give rise to more psychopaths' type ending. The circle continues.

As for Tonks and Lupin, who raises the kid? This is one of the thousands of threads about beloved characters just left hanging. But, probably the most important one. We never even get a final list of the dead. We know more people died, but don't know who.

[guppiecat]

Technically, Harry should raise the kid, since he's godfather. It doesn't look like that happened though.

Somethings I must have missed:

1) How did the Gryffindor sword get back into the story?
2) What was the knife used to kill the snake? How did it have the power to destroy a Horcrux

The bit that surprised me was that I expected Harry and team to work on getting House Elves and Goblins fair treatment. Just a mention of it in the end would have been sufficient.

I also expected more death than there was, as it was mostly secondary characters that died (with the exception of Harry who came back, and Snape who was pseudo secondary).

[rathanylakan.livejournal.com]

I thought that a while back she had really written herself into a corner with the whole-house elf thing. I guess she just decided to drop it.

I guess the hat can just magically summon the sword?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I guess the hat can just magically summon the sword?

Wow, the goblins are going to be really pissed off about that. That's probably not going to help interspecies relations.

[rathanylakan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was thinking about that. Gringotts also holds alot of treasure that the goblins think is rightfully theirs. If relations break down things could get interesting.

[par-avion.livejournal.com]

Any true Griffindor can receive the sword if they are in desperate need. (Not summon the sword, though -- it is up to the sword, not the person).

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

1) Any "true" Gryffindor i.e. exceedingly brave Neville can apparently summon Godric's sword when in need;

2) Gryffindor's sword became infused with Basilisk venom (the Goblin says that the true sword repels all dirt, but, absorbs things that it touches which make it stronger) when Harry stabbed the basilisk in the Chamber. Basilisk venom can destroy a horcrux (it destroyed Riddle's diary in the chamber when Harry stabbed the book with a fang). So, the sword of Gryffindor that fell out of the Sorting Hat (a magical object in its own right - didn't Harry find the sword in the Hat in CoS?) was in fact the exact thing that was needed to kill the snake.

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

Correction: par_avion is right; "receive" the sword, not summon (as I typed)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, to me that epilogue did not seem like a 'happy, happy, everything is ok now' type ending. It seemed to me to be more of a 'festering hatreds, prejudgice and bullying will continue and give rise to more psychopaths' type ending. The circle continues.

Exactly. Nothing's changed, except that Voldemort is dead. And with the story of Grindelwald in front of us, it seems like it's all doomed to happen all over again. Harry gets a happy ending (if... a really boring and predictable one), but his children will face all of the same things that he did.

[aesvir.livejournal.com]

Snape's story made me cry. But that was because he died, unloved and unappreciated by the world that owed him thanks. :(

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

At least Harry (and the readers) got to appreciate him. I feel bad for him, though, definitely.

[beledibabe.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was underwhelmed.

And the Doctor? I can only think he was pulling their chains... ::g::

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Underwhelmed is a good way to put it.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I'm wondering which parts in particular made the Doctor cry,

That one of the R/H kiddies was named Rose?

(Sorry - someone posted the epilogue a couple of days ago, and I was snickering to myself - "oh *that's* why he cried!" ;D)

[ivydoor.livejournal.com]

My initial thought was Hedwig dying but as soon as I read the little girl's name was Rose, I lost it in a fit of giggles. I completely believe that's why he cried.

[nic]

*hee* - Brilliant!

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Poor, poor Doctor. *pats him*

:D

[deifire]

I'm so glad it wasn't just me thinking that!

[bell]

It took me all of two minutes to realize that I agree you; JKR's idea of romantic love is very different from mine as well (at least in its early phases). In all her OTP couples we see forming, there's that on-and-off and suffering element (Remus/Tonks, James/Lily, Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermoine, etc).

Whereas her idea of deep friendship seems closer to what I feel is true love-- the support Harry and Hermoine show each other after Ron's departure, in particular.

Then again, the adult/established couples show wonderful equality-- the Weasley parents, James and Lily once they're married...

[nic]

I hear that JK wrote the epilogue years before the rest of the book? It shows.

Unfortunately, it really does. I didn't like the epilogue one bit. (Aside from "Scorpius".)

[ataniell93.livejournal.com]

The Doctor cried over Albus and Gellert, of course, because that reminded him of his doomed love for the Master.

Y Helo Thar Non-Evil Ex-BF...only I can give you the Timecock Deathstick...

[deepdarkness.livejournal.com]

I feel sort of weird about this book myself. Probably because I've read so much "last battle" fan fiction, but the whole thing seemed a bit...I dunno. Off is probably the right word. So many of the deaths felt wrong to me.

Wormtail: yes the hand played a part, but what with JKR making it silver, I thought there would be a face-off between he and Lupin. They were the last of their friends, and if anyone was going to kill Wormtail it would be Lupin. At least she got in the whole wizards debt thing with Harry.

Lupin and Tonks: I agree with you regarding Tonks. She threw away a really good character. Also, having her and Lupin's deaths off screen sort of took the gravity of it away. In the moment, I wasn't all that broken up about it. There are also questions: Who killed them? Was it one defending the other? Was it just a stray curse? If not Wormtail being the one Lupin has a big showdown with, why not Greyback? For being JKR's favorite character, apparently, she didn't treat his death all that well.

Snape: while I felt vindicated in my having said for a while that Snape had been working for Dumbledore, I hated his death. Hated it. Not just as a fan of the character and having him die sucked, but how he died, and why and who witnessed it. I wanted something better than a snake to kill him, if he had to go. Could he not openly show he was fighting on the Light side just once? His character may have always been shrouded in such shadow, but did his death have to go the same way, with no one witness to his sacrifice other than Harry? I thought JKR treated Snape very badly in this book.

Ron and Hermione getting together also annoyed me to no end. I knew it was going to happen, but no matter that they got married and lived happily ever after in that epilogue, I still don't think that, realistically, it would have worked. Speaking from experience, having someone who fancies you act like a child around you is more of a turn off, no matter what your feelings are towards them. Your regard for them lessens. I dunno...maybe he smartened up once they were together, but this is Ron...

As for the Doctor...yeah, it was so Rose at the end.

[jedi_of_urth]

I hadn't heard that about the epilogue (or if I did I forgot) but yeah, that makes sense. It's just sort of there.

And who raised Teddy Lupin exactly? By rights shouldn't Harry have? But he doesn't seem to be a real part of the happy little family.

And JKR's idea of romantic love isn't mine either, because I'd really like to know what possessed James and Lily to get together, and I'm pretty sure Ron and Hermione will always matter more to Harry than Ginny, and it was always Harry who made Ron and Hermione get alone (baring random acts of character "development" that make no sense), and Remus and Tonks just do not give the impression of being a functional couple.

Really, the Doctor cried because he ships Harry/Hermione (whether or not he did before Rose, I'm sure he does now), and because there was a character named Rose in the end.

Farewell Mr. Potter...

[mrprankster.livejournal.com]

I have to agree entirely that JKR seems to let slip some strange personal views on things inbetween the lines and this often leads me to wonder if she's miscalculated her intentions at times. Aside from certain character developments, I'd always fond her greatest strengh lies in plot progression, you know the thriller and mystery aspects as aposed to the romantic side.

With Ron and Hermonie I think JKR's mind set was probably in the fact that you do see couples out there who fight limitlessly and wonder why they stay together and yet they somehow do because they are argumentative people who even if they arn't completely aware of it, get off on it and cope through it. The hole it may be stormy but it's equal and pushes their buttons. Now I can only assume that JKR tried so hard to convay this that she ended up finding herself in a OTT patten and hasn't realised it or dosen't want to except the mistake. Another thing is that the kind of women in those realationships tend to be much less stable and very uh...different kind of people to someone like Hermonie I'd have thought.

I tend to see miscalulation of otherwise seemingly good intentions being at the root of my problems with Harry/Ginny too. I think JKR made a classic mistake of soap opera tradition with Ginny's development. She seemed to think 'right, Harry's great love must be super strong, super gutsy etc...' and has got so lost in trying to convay the hole female empowerment strengh of character thing that she feel into the trap of being aparenetly unable to showcase that without it being at the expense of other characters and alass the end result leaves her more like a bitch and bully in addition to a carboard ideal girlfriend sort of cypher figure rather than a strong super women or even much of an indivual of her own right.

Basically this quote from a random forum somes it up pretty well for me, for the most part. Insidentaly I'm personaly not a shipper of Harry with anyone.

"I don't think Ginny became a character in her own right. She wasn't developed in any way and they said "she never gave up on Harry". She's like a less extreme version of Merope, to me. I thought that was just a sign of her being a bit pathetic to me.

I don't think she's strong - I think she's a horrible, nasty, bratty bitch!

She attacks Zacharias and nearly seriously injures him because of biased commentary. Had Draco Malfoy done that to Lee Jordan, the writer would (rightly) portray this as the actions of a nasty bully. But when Ginny Weasley does it, it seems to be Ok because she's on the "good" side.

She casts a hex on him because he "annoys" her. Draco Malfoy to tee. Leaf out of his book.

She gets off on publicly humiliating people. Ron and Hermione were victims of a vicious tongue lashing. Ron's was completely OTT and Hermione's was totally unprovoked. And her attitude to Fleur in general but even after Fleur showed how much she loved Bill was terrible. she was still "I suppose I'd have to accept her". Who the hell did she think she was? If Harry was mangled, she'd be the first out the door. It's hard to think of a fictional character I despise more.

Everyone and their Death Eater (literally) fancy her, it was ridiculous. She was just a 1D Mary Sue. She's like the Hogwarts cheerleader and Harry's the jock. He becomes so unlikeable with her and it was like she's just a little snog doll while Harry has a break from his life - he never talks about anything important with her. And she can do a Bat Bogey Hex which is the only magical thing of any competence I've seen her do in the books. I think she's just awful and I've never seen any signs of bravery or intelligence from her.

I don't think Cho's wet - I think Cho's inner strength, courage, decency and morality outshines Ginny's by far. She was just in grief over Cedric. Grief can do strange things.

As you can see, I loathe Ginny and I would seriously cheer if she was killed off in the next book."

Ultimately I think the biggest pay off went to the Snape fans. I really felt for him, what a powerfull backstory.

Whoa! That went on huh? Sorry once I'm started and all that. Anyhow great insights people, so much to think of.

[timarach.livejournal.com]

I agree with your comments. BTW, since your SW's fics are now friend locked how exactly could I reread them? I love them deeply. Do you host them anywhere else or something?