Doctor Who: Bit of the Journey's End commentary (with thoughts)

[butterfly]

So, I got my Series 4 dvds and the very first thing that I did was rush over to the "Journey's End" commentary to see what Russell, David, and Catherine had to say about That Particular Scene. The Bad Wolf Bay scene, that is.

(first, they talk about David's body double's similar bone structure and that he isn't as tall as David for a while and Catherine confesses to flubbing the (now cut) baby!TARDIS technobabble a lot. My own comments will appear [in italics and brackets])

Russell T Davies: "Where the Doctor gives the new Doctor [RTD having no problem acknowledging him as just as much the Doctor] a piece of coral to grow into a TARDIS, so that the Doctor and Rose can fly away together [All together now: Awwww....]."
Catherine Tate: "Of course [she sounds so smitten with the idea. *hearts*]."
RTD: "And the scene was just endless and it was so much about the Doctor and Rose, in the middle of this very sad scene."
David Tennant: "Do you know, I don't think that's a bad cut, because I remember when you always thought that's leading to another story, that actually we have no intention - at the moment - of telling. [at the moment! *squees hopefully* He has to leave that door open, doesn't he? What a great big tease.]"
RTD: "It was to give the Doctor... to give blue Doctor and Rose a sort of life with the TARDIS. [Again, I say... Awwww.]"
DT: "But there's something... there's something a bit better about him being more of a bloke. [probably in part because David has a huge mental issue with The Doctor having sex but probably has many fewer issues with a more human Doctor having sex! He can imagine the Doctor/Rose relationship being consumated now, where he's more of a 'no shagging in the TARDIS' guy generally.]"
RTD: "And also, I didn't like the look of the coral. The Doctor throws Doctor Two [I am so amused that RTD cannot make up his mind what exactly to call him, because he's totally also the Doctor, but just saying 'the Doctor' is confusing!] a bit of coral and it looked daft [having seen the cut scene, I must agree. It looks totally daft and not very cool at all]. It looks like a bit of an old prop. But also the real reason for cutting was that it was so much about... Rose and which Doctor she's got and the Doctor knows and Donna knows... and then there's this bit of flim-flam. But it should be on this box set as a deleted scene. Also, the episode was like sixty-three minutes long, so... come on! Get it over with."
DT: "It's such a beautifully, delicately written scene. [It's nice to hear DT's opinion of the scene, I have to say. He sounds much less conflicted than Billie Piper did on the confidential!] I know... you had three goes, didn't you?"
RTD: "It was hard to get this right. [but he does seem to feel that he did get it right in the end].
DT: "But I think it's very... because there's actually something slightly selfish about the way Rose behaves. Just a little."
RTD: "Yes! [very enthusiastically. He's mentioned Rose being 'gloriously selfish' in some previous confidential, as I recall. It's very much a part of her character, as written from the very beginning.] She always has been."
DT: "She always has been, right. And it just makes... kinda sense... [like I said, essential bit of the character. It's part of what makes her Rose and that's why her wondering who Martha was and what she meant to the Doctor was just as essential as her incredibly epic leadership skills in "Turn Left"]"
RTD: "Yes. And in the way the new Doctor, the blue Doctor, acts as well."
DT: "When I went to do the ADR on this, there was a note on the thing saying, 'whispering in the ear'. Do the whispering in the ear. They wanted to have a line, to hear what I was whispering in her ear. Can't do that!"
RTD: "See, Donna knows what's going on. It's sad, I mean, she's got the man she wants, but it's not-"
DT: "It's not quite what she wants."
RTD: "It's just-"
DT: "It's very sad."
CT: "But it's such a brilliant realization of that- their story. [*hearts Catherine Tate*]"
DT: "But perfect. Just exactly what it should be."
Everyone: "Yeah. [the mutters of agreement are pretty adorable]"
RTD: "It's a hard one to... I think... in the end... it took so long to write in the end just as I couldn't see it... what it's about. But it's actually about the Doctor. It's about-"
DT: "It's about the Doctor giving her up."
RTD: "It's the hardest thing in the world. Both the Doctors know... you know what's happened, you say tell her what you've done and all that [note: he changes from third to second-person here, which is interesting]. You're giving her the biggest present in the world. Because even if you did pop across from a different parallel universe, you're still nine hundred years old. So, it's never, ever, ever going to work. And you know that she would devote herself to you and leave her family and stay on the TARDIS and die of old age in front of you, so you did exactly the right thing here."

(and then they go into the wonderful Doctor & Donna scene)

Comments

[nic]

Oh, that last paragraph of RTD's just BREAKS me all over again.

Thank you for posting this!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It really is all about the Doctor not wanting to watch her die. He both desperately doesn't want to see that and also desperately wants her to be happy. Hard thing to reconcile.

It's fascinating how completely RTD, DT, and CT are of one mind about the scene.

(and it's utterly fascinating how RTD changes from 'the Doctor' to 'you' in that last paragraph)

Also(because you're using an icon about it) I've been watching S2 with my dad and we just saw "Fear Her" today and the first thing he said after D/R's initial scene together was "so, are they boyfriend and girlfriend now?"

To which, I could only say... "pretty much."

[nic]

"so, are they boyfriend and girlfriend now?"


It is going to be so very interesting, when I rewatch, trying to figure out just when in the chronology they realise that yup, they are IN love with each other and no one else.

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

"It's the hardest thing in the world. Both the Doctors know... you know what's happened, you say tell her what you've done and all that [note: he changes from third to second-person here, which is interesting]. You're giving her the biggest present in the world. Because even if you did pop across from a different parallel universe, you're still nine hundred years old. So, it's never, ever, ever going to work. And you know that she would devote herself to you and leave her family and stay on the TARDIS and die of old age in front of you, so you did exactly the right thing here."

So true. It's sad, but true and that's why I eventually accepted this ending as the right one.
And aww!!! Catherine is just like Donna isn't she? A proud Doctor/Rose shipper!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

So true. It's sad, but true and that's why I eventually accepted this ending as the right one.

It really does lead to the greatest happiness for the greatness number of people.

And aww!!! Catherine is just like Donna isn't she? A proud Doctor/Rose shipper!

She is! It's quite sweet.

[blackcat-1.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting this; it's nice to know exactly what the PTB really thought of the scene. I'd say they pretty much summed up what most of us thought.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

They really do, yeah.

[helygen.livejournal.com]

Aaw that's just adorable :)

♥

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It's very sweet. I *heart* those people.

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

*Squishes them*

For all my issues about the scene, I am happy with it these days, and it's nice to see that the three of them are off the same opinion.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

If RTD and DT weren't such big fanboys (though, of course, if they weren't such fanboys, they might not even be making the show in the first place) or this were an entirely independent production and not DW, then I suspect we have only had one Doctor at the end of RTD's run (which would be the only run) and he'd be with Rose. But both of them, I think, aren't quite capable of going there with the Doctor as the show has always presented him.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

You're giving her the biggest present in the world. Because even if you did pop across from a different parallel universe, you're still nine hundred years old. So, it's never, ever, ever going to work. And you know that she would devote herself to you and leave her family and stay on the TARDIS and die of old age in front of you, so you did exactly the right thing here."

Just, awwwwwwwwwwwwwww! I love this so much and DO NOT understand why more D/R fans don't see this. This was the Doctor's most unselfish act and it was all because he loved Rose soooooooooo much.

Thank you for this.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Just, awwwwwwwwwwwwwww! I love this so much and DO NOT understand why more D/R fans don't see this. This was the Doctor's most unselfish act and it was all because he loved Rose soooooooooo much.

It kinda is a lovely sort of validation to hear RTD and DT saying all the same things that you and I have been saying about the scene. Because it is, as you say, probably the most selfless thing that the Doctor has ever done and it hurts a bit to see him get hate for it.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

YES!! The anger and disappointment that has been leveled against RTD and Ten for this is so upsetting because it's so undeserved. It just boggles my mind that more D/R fans don't see the absolutely amazing gift that RTD gave us D/R fans, and what Ten did for Rose. He came up with the crackiest of crack ways to make our OTP real and canon and give them a happy-ever-after in a way that did not destroy the premise of the show (and allowed for the actor's schedules). How is that *NOT* the most awesome thing ever? Yes, the execution could have been better, but it was still pretty damn good and again time and money constraints? I'm thrilled with what we got. The Doctor and Rose actually got a happy-ever-after. And, so did Ten to a degree because he knows that a part of himself now will experience that one adventure that he thought he could never have ... and now he is having it (sort of) with the love of his life.

Damnit, this reminds me: I am GOING to write that 10selflesshappy post. I am going to, damnit!!!

[blackcat-1.livejournal.com]

Amen to this.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

YES!! The anger and disappointment that has been leveled against RTD and Ten for this is so upsetting because it's so undeserved. It just boggles my mind that more D/R fans don't see the absolutely amazing gift that RTD gave us D/R fans, and what Ten did for Rose. He came up with the crackiest of crack ways to make our OTP real and canon and give them a happy-ever-after in a way that did not destroy the premise of the show (and allowed for the actor's schedules). How is that *NOT* the most awesome thing ever? Yes, the execution could have been better, but it was still pretty damn good and again time and money constraints? I'm thrilled with what we got. The Doctor and Rose actually got a happy-ever-after. And, so did Ten to a degree because he knows that a part of himself now will experience that one adventure that he thought he could never have ... and now he is having it (sort of) with the love of his life.

I guess a lot of people really did want the implication that Rose stayed in the TARDIS until she died. Which I don't think RTD is any more capable of than the Doctor. There's no way he could tell us that Rose died. And, this way, they could go back to explore Rose and Ten II and they'll be aging at the same rate and living a life together without any of the hangups that our fanboyish RTD and DT had about the Doctor having sex in the TARDIS. I mean, yes, I feel sad for Ten I, but he choose this and what he choose was to do something that would make the woman he adored happy without condemning himself to watching her grow old and die while knowing that he would have to carry on. The maximum happiness for the most people.

Damnit, this reminds me: I am GOING to write that 10selflesshappy post. I am going to, damnit!

And I see you've posted it. Yay!

*goes over to read*

[arabian.livejournal.com]

I guess a lot of people really did want the implication that Rose stayed in the TARDIS until she died.

I think if it was put that way to D/R fans -- if RTD had put it THAT clearly -- maybe more would see what we do. I mean why would we prefer to see both Rose and the Doctor suffer when RTD gave us (and them) a much better, much happier alternative.

Which I don't think RTD is any more capable of than the Doctor. There's no way he could tell us that Rose died. And, this way, they could go back to explore Rose and Ten II and they'll be aging at the same rate and living a life together without any of the hangups that our fanboyish RTD and DT had about the Doctor having sex in the TARDIS.

Yuppers.

I mean, yes, I feel sad for Ten I, but he choose this and what he choose was to do something that would make the woman he adored happy without condemning himself to watching her grow old and die while knowing that he would have to carry on. The maximum happiness for the most people.

Yup and it's just so true that Ten can be happy because he fully knows and believes that Rose IS getting everything from him now.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think if it was put that way to D/R fans -- if RTD had put it THAT clearly -- maybe more would see what we do. I mean why would we prefer to see both Rose and the Doctor suffer when RTD gave us (and them) a much better, much happier alternative.

I don't know! Some people seem really certain that Ten II shouldn't get to count as really the Doctor, which I don't get. If you accept regeneration, why not accept this? Jackie doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

Yup and it's just so true that Ten can be happy because he fully knows and believes that Rose IS getting everything from him now.

*nods*

It's clear from HN/FoB that a part of the Doctor does want the whole marriage/kids/growing old thing with someone that he loves (despite his sometimes contradictory views on marriage). It's clear from SR that it tears him up inside to think about Rose dying and about not being able to spend the rest of his life with her.

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Something else that struck me while responding to people in my thread was that not only does Ten get to give Rose the gift of himself and a full, complete life with Rose, he also gets to fulfill his obligation as a Time Lord, which is VERY important to him, without the second-guessing and emotional devastation when weighed against being with/losing, etc. Rose. And it's not just Ten, but Ten II also. Both get the knowledge that one of them is still out there fulfilling his obligation as a Time Lord to the universe. That was also a part of the issue between the Doctor and the Rose as we saw as far back as World War 3 -- the Doctor being forced to choose between saving Rose or the world/universe. Now, he can choose both.

Some people seem really certain that Ten II shouldn't get to count as really the Doctor, which I don't get. If you accept regeneration, why not accept this?

I KNOW!!! And furthermore, this is better than a normal regeneration because Rose doesn't have to re-learn a new face, new body, new mannerisms, etc.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

*nods*

He doesn't have to pick anymore. One of him can be devoted to the universe and the other to Rose.

I KNOW!!! And furthermore, this is better than a normal regeneration because Rose doesn't have to re-learn a new face, new body, new mannerisms, etc.

At most, she'll have to get used to a couple of Donna-isms, but even those are so different from how the Doctor normally acts anyway.

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

*sniffles*

RTD: "It's a hard one to... I think... in the end... it took so long to write in the end just as I couldn't see it... what it's about. But it's actually about the Doctor. It's about-"
DT: "It's about the Doctor giving her up."
RTD: "It's the hardest thing in the world. Both the Doctors know... you know what's happened, you say tell her what you've done and all that [note: he changes from third to second-person here, which is interesting]. You're giving her the biggest present in the world. Because even if you did pop across from a different parallel universe, you're still nine hundred years old. So, it's never, ever, ever going to work. And you know that she would devote herself to you and leave her family and stay on the TARDIS and die of old age in front of you, so you did exactly the right thing here."

I think that's the interpretation that I keep coming back to for that scene, but it's still nice to hear it confirmed. :D

It's so interesting to me, the Doctor's motivations for giving Rose up - he's so completely unselfish and selfish at the same time. He's giving up the woman he loves because he wants her to have a better life, but so much of it is also connected to his inability to lose her again or watch her die.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think that's the interpretation that I keep coming back to for that scene, but it's still nice to hear it confirmed. :D

It really is, yeah.

It's so interesting to me, the Doctor's motivations for giving Rose up - he's so completely unselfish and selfish at the same time. He's giving up the woman he loves because he wants her to have a better life, but so much of it is also connected to his inability to lose her again or watch her die.

*nods*

He loves her and wants her to be happy, but he so very much doesn't want to watch her grow old and die in front of him. Losing her to the parallel world hurt so much and he knew that she was alive. He knows that he can (just barely) survive losing Rose to a parallel world. Losing her to death... I don't he's as certain about that. He almost let himself die in TRB and courted death several more times in S3. He knows how vulnerable losing Rose made him the first time.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

I still wish they'd found a way to make the original Doctor a little more positive about giving Rose up. Rather than it being an act of agonizing sacrifice, if he'd been able to really hug her and let her go with a kind of blessing on them, not just turn and walk away without a goodbye. Then it would have felt much more like a healing reversal of the scene in Doomsday. But we were left with such a bleak future for the Doctor who'd already lost just about every meaningful person in his life - Astrid, Jenny, River Song before he'd even had the pleasure of loving her, and shortly Donna as well. It could have been a beautiful scene, even with the pain of his sacrifice. Still feel that was a missed opportunity.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, I think he was trying to be as positive as possible. He even manages a smile when Ten II is telling Rose about his one heart and living a life with her, if she wants. He tries to do it that way, but Rose won't let it stop there. She pushes him about the sentence at Bad Wolf Bay and he watches Rose kissing Ten II and that's... he had to leave while she was still doing that because it was everything he wanted and couldn't have and it hurt too much. I don't think that I would have found it believable for him to have hugged Rose at BWB and then let her go. It would have rung false to me. The reason that I believe he's capable of doing it is because it's so obviously painful.

[xbriyeon.livejournal.com]

*wibbles & dies*

T__T still conflicted over it, no matter what.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

I think we're supposed to be. Because they are both the Doctor, and so you want Ten I to have that happy ending...

but RTD has to hand the Doctor over to Moffat in a year, so it couldn't happen. Moffat doesn't want to write Doctor/Rose. He wants to create his own companions, which is understandable.