butterfly: (World Still Turning - Rose)
[personal profile] butterfly
One of the things that I really enjoyed about the Master/Lucy relationship as portrayed throughout "The Sound of the Drums" and "Last of the Time Lords" is how it felt very much like a dark reflection of the Doctor (specifically Ten)/Rose relationship. Also of great interest to me, though, was how the Master and Rose's relationships with the Doctor felt like two sides of the same coin as well.

The Doctor/Rose and Master/Lucy parallels are all pretty obvious -- Lucy and Rose are both underestimated by outsiders who don't understand that they have fully bought into what their particular Time Lord is selling.

Much as the Master is a dark mirror of Ten, so, too, is that relationship -- where Rose sees the end of the world with the Doctor and it fills her with a sense of how amazing time travel is, Lucy sees the end of the universe with the Master and it breaks her, making her as mad as the Master is.

Of equal interest to me, however, are the Rose-Master parallels. Both of them are forgiven by the Doctor for things that other people are not and both of them are extreme emotional tethers for him -- in a lot of ways, the show needed the Master in S3, because they needed the Doctor to have the same depth of emotional investment that we were used to seeing from him and he couldn't react that way to Martha and still tell the story that Russell was telling.

I think of Rose and the Master as like... matter and anti-matter. Equal and opposite. Both of them make the Doctor extremely vulnerable (the Master and Rose in the same series might well have actually made the Doctor lose his mind trying to handle the mental conflict).

("maybe it's time I settled down," he says to the Master. Because he has someone to care for -- and, in JE, he gives Rose a version of himself who can settle down with her if she chooses, someone she can care for).

But where Rose is all about the future, the Master is everything that is the past. He's still trapped in that same conflict with the Doctor, unable to break out of it even after knowing that all of their people are dead and gone. Where Rose inspires, the Master corrupts (the Toclofane versus "Dalek"). Both Rose and the Master are emotionally focused on the Doctor, but Rose wants to protect him while the Master wants to destroy him.

What the Doctor says about looking into the 'untempered schism' -- some run (the Doctor, still running), some go mad (the Master), and some are inspired. And that's Rose, who looks into the Vortex in tPotW and uses that power to do good. She doesn't run and she doesn't break. She saves.

Have I mentioned recently how brilliant Rose Tyler is?

Before "The Stolen Earth" aired, I mentioned that, if "Turn Left" was the climax of the Bad Wolf arc, that would be enough for me. And, in retrospect, TL really does feel like the culmination of the "Rose as inspiration/leader" arc (TSE/JE are there to tie up her emotional storyline with the Doctor, not her heroic storyline). She inspires Donna into her sacrifice and is clearly a mysterious leadership-type figure of the sort she was working on her way to being in "The Impossible Planet"/"The Satan Pit".

When we meet Rose, she's 'just' a shopgirl. By the time we leave her on that beach the second time, she's walked across universes on a noble quest to save all of creation and to find the person she loves -- very epic. It's pretty much classic, really, except that it's the sort of story that normally only gets handed to male characters. Rose explodes the fairy tales, I said once. "I create myself," she says in "The Parting of the Ways" and it's still one of the most empowering and powerful statements about identity and coming-into-your-own that I've ever heard.

One of the very first trailers for the new series has Rose talking about the 'choice' that she has to make -- "Stay at home with my mum, my boyfriend, my job... or I can chuck it all in for danger and monsters and life or death. What do you think?"

Even in watching those brief few seconds of Rose, it's obvious what she's going to pick. Rose is just as attracted to 'trouble' as the Doctor is -- it's one of the things that they bond over. This is what she's been waiting all her life for... she just didn't know it. She takes hold of the Doctor's life and enjoys every second of it -- both Martha and Donna have moments of regret, moments when they wish they could just go home. The closest that Rose gets to that is "School Reunion", when she asks Sarah Jane if she should leave, but even then, she expresses no regret for anything that she's done with the Doctor or for the life itself. She's afraid that her heart might get broken, not that she might die.

"I made a choice," she says, over and over. She creates herself. She chooses to go with the Doctor in "Rose". She chooses to stay with him in "The End of the World" and reaffirms that decision in "The Unquiet Dead" ("I wanted to come.") and "Dalek" ("I wouldn't have missed it for the world."). She chooses, very forcefully, to come back in "The Parting of the Ways", knowing that it might well mean her death. Her fear in "The Christmas Invasion" is that the Doctor might not want her to come and she enthusiastically says that she definitely wants to go with him.

She stays with him after "School Reunion" and, while the Doctor seems to fret over her seeing her father in "Rise of the Cybermen"/"Age of Steel", there never seems to be the slightest notion from Rose's side of things that she might possibly choose to stay there -- she's surprised and saddened over Mickey staying in Pete's World but doesn't even consider the idea of staying with him. In "The Impossible Planet"/"The Satan Pit", she tells the Doctor that being stuck with him "isn't so bad" and refuses to leave the planet without him, even knowing that she might die there.

"I made my choice a long time ago," she tells him in "Doomsday" (again, there is that echo in Lucy -- "I made my choice. For better or for worse."). "And I'm never going to leave you."

The universe being what it is, she gets torn away anyway.

Rose Tyler being who she is, she refuses to take 'impossible' for an answer.

No two people love in the same way. Rose creates and inspires and builds. The Doctor protects and aids. The Master destroys and overpowers (he's dysfunctional that way).

Julie Gardner, in talking about what the Doctor says in "Journey's End", says he gives Rose the greatest compliment that he is capable of -- he tells her that she made him better, that she could do it again. "It's a better life," Rose says in tPotW, but she rushes to clarify. "I don't mean all the travelling and... seeing aliens and spaceships and things - that don't matter. The Doctor showed me a better way of living your life. You know, he showed you too. That you don't just give up. You don't just let things happen. You make a stand. You say no. You have the guts to do what's right when everyone else just runs away."

What we see, in TL, is that Rose truly does embody everything that the Doctor might have taught her. She is, fully and completely, the 'Doctor' figure to Donna in that episode. The first time that the Doctor sent her away, back in tPotW, he asked her to "have a fantastic life". A good life. He wants her to be safe and he does want her to be happy.

What Rose says, then and always, is not without you. She's fully capable of living that amazing life without him, but she doesn't want to do it, but it'll break both his hearts to watch her die. And that's the conflict that exists when you have a finite love story and a character who is not finite in the same way. Again, I really, really love the solution that Russell came up with -- it's complicated and utterly unique. It balances the conflict -- the beauty and passion of the love story against the unstoppable certainty of a story that must continue on afterwards. He made it so that that story would exist on his terms and no one else's. Rose made her choice -- a life with the Doctor.

Rose is the ultimate unstoppable force -- so much so that the previously unmovable objects not only move... they actually crack under the pressure. The Doctor himself ends up literally split into two so that he can fulfill both Rose's desires and the needs of the universe (without the advent of Ten II, the tension that existed in their relationship in S1/2 would always be there -- "I could save the world but lose you.").

And it is, I think, very powerful and freeing for the Doctor to have someone choose him as strongly as Rose does after what happens in LotTL, where the Master chooses to die just to spite him.

What is love? For Rose, it meant choosing her star and running until she caught it, protecting and joining. For the Doctor, it got to mean two things -- both accepting someone else's love fully and also letting go in order to allow her to be happy in more ways than he believed he was capable of doing. For the Master and Lucy, their connection destroyed Lucy's sanity and killed the Master, allowing him to hurt the Doctor one last time. And, though the Doctor died through Rose's kiss, that freed him to become the man who could accept her saying 'forever'. And though he died because he ran to reach her again, that freed him to become a man who could promise her the rest of his life.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 10:04 pm (UTC)
ext_7237: (Default)
From: [identity profile] adriana-is.livejournal.com
Absolutely. You put into words how much I love Rose and what she stands for.

Thank you

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 01:04 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Rose is such a wonderful character. I'm so glad that you enjoyed the post.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 10:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pluckyyounggirl.livejournal.com
Despite the fact that I'm still not agreeing on the way things went in JE, I am kind of a little bit in love with this post. (And about JE - I do understand what you're saying, absolutely. In my head. In my heart, I just don't feel it. But I'm glad it works for you, and others.)

"I create myself," she says in "The Parting of the Ways" and it's still one of the most empowering and powerful statements about identity and coming-into-your-own that I've ever heard.

I never really thought of it that way, and now I don't understand how I ever could not have looked at it that way. Because, yes. This. This is absolutely brilliant.

*mems*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 10:35 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] shaela
Despite the fact that I'm still not agreeing on the way things went in JE, I am kind of a little bit in love with this post.

Seconded. We don’t see eye to eye on Ten/Rose, much less Ten II/Rose, but I kind of want to draw hearts around everything you’ve said about Rose’s hero’s journey.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 10:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pluckyyounggirl.livejournal.com
*gets out the pencil case and throws you sparkly gely pen*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 10:39 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] shaela
*draws sparkly pink hearts*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 12:09 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] shaela
YES. ♥♥♥

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 01:06 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
*giggles*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 01:05 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Rose's hero journey is love.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 01:05 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I never really thought of it that way, and now I don't understand how I ever could not have looked at it that way. Because, yes. This. This is absolutely brilliant.

Thank you! I really do adore that one sentence more than I can ever possibly express.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 10:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-lucky-stars.livejournal.com
I remember RTD touching on the Lucy/Rose parallel in a DWM interview by describing Lucy as an "evil Rose."

there is that echo in Lucy -- "I made my choice. For better or for worse."

I remember that there was a Lucy poster in the Doctor Who Adventures mag, with the caption "I made my choice a long time ago." - since they get sent early version of the script, it's possible that quote was in an earlier draft but just got changed.


Thanks for this, fantastic post.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 01:07 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I remember RTD touching on the Lucy/Rose parallel in a DWM interview by describing Lucy as an "evil Rose."

As a non-DWM reader, I feel so vindicated! I saw what the creator intended. Go me! Hee.

I remember that there was a Lucy poster in the Doctor Who Adventures mag, with the caption "I made my choice a long time ago." - since they get sent early version of the script, it's possible that quote was in an earlier draft but just got changed.

They probably decided that it was just a little too on-the-nose if they had Lucy flat-out quote Rose.

Thanks for this, fantastic post.

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 07:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arabian.livejournal.com
They probably decided that it was just a little too on-the-nose if they had Lucy flat-out quote Rose.

Actually (and I obviously could be wrong), but I think it may simply have to do with the love of puns, play on words, etc. in the dialogue. Lucy is specifically talking about being with the Master, ie, marrying him, thus the "for better or for worse," quoting traditional wedding vows. That just so sounds like something that Rusty would grab onto. The intention was probably to very clearly draw that parallel with Rose's line, but then he jumped on the 'Ooh, I can get the point across AND make a cool play on wedding vows! Go me!!'

(Aww, I had Rusty quoting you. Hee!)

On the other hand, you could be totally right.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 07:44 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Actually (and I obviously could be wrong), but I think it may simply have to do with the love of puns, play on words, etc. in the dialogue. Lucy is specifically talking about being with the Master, ie, marrying him, thus the "for better or for worse," quoting traditional wedding vows. That just so sounds like something that Rusty would grab onto. The intention was probably to very clearly draw that parallel with Rose's line, but then he jumped on the 'Ooh, I can get the point across AND make a cool play on wedding vows! Go me!!'

Oh, no, that intent makes a whole lot of sense. Though, if you then backward parallel again, it makes Rose's 'forever' and 'I made my choice a long time ago' sound even more vow-y.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] arabian.livejournal.com
*Sigh* I know ................

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 10:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sunnytyler001.livejournal.com
You see, that's why I wish so much the Master had met Rose. So much potential! They're like the ying and the yang, opposites, but with some common points (they looked into the vortex and that changed them, they're important to the Doctor, ...).

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 01:08 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
It would been an interesting meeting (that would have caused the Doctor so much stress).

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 10:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shinyopals.livejournal.com
As always, I bow before your meta!

Rose's journey is absolutely one of my favourite things about the new series and I definitely agree that the Master basically filled that emotional connection for the Doctor in s3.

Without the Master, it's possible Jack might have gone some of the way to filling that role, but while I tend to ship Jack/Doctor and I find their relationship rather brilliant and interesting, a lot of their connection (especially in Utopia) seems to come through Rose.

I admit I've long been fascinated by the idea of Rose and the Master meeting. The way he speaks of her looking into the Time Vortex... obviously that's to make Martha feel inadequate but he's fascinated, both by all that she did when it drove him mad and, so I imagine, by a human whose loss has so deeply affected the Doctor.

Anyway, now I'm rambling with no real direction. Just assume I've nodded to EVERYTHING in this post and you'll get and idea of what I think! XD

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 02:00 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Rose's journey is absolutely one of my favourite things about the new series and I definitely agree that the Master basically filled that emotional connection for the Doctor in s3.

She's got such a well-drawn and powerful journey and we really did someone there to balance out her absence in S3 and while Martha could be the other person in the TARDIS who had some of Rose's outward qualities, we needed the Master to hit the emotional base notes.

Without the Master, it's possible Jack might have gone some of the way to filling that role, but while I tend to ship Jack/Doctor and I find their relationship rather brilliant and interesting, a lot of their connection (especially in Utopia) seems to come through Rose.

*nods*

It's talking about Rose that lets the two of them stop being silly idiots at the beginning of "Utopia" and hug and start to get over their issues a little.

I admit I've long been fascinated by the idea of Rose and the Master meeting. The way he speaks of her looking into the Time Vortex... obviously that's to make Martha feel inadequate but he's fascinated, both by all that she did when it drove him mad and, so I imagine, by a human whose loss has so deeply affected the Doctor.

Oh, yes, definitely. He'd probably be really annoyed if he ever found out how much longer the Doctor spent mourning Rose.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 11:05 pm (UTC)
ext_18566: (Default)
From: [identity profile] voldything.livejournal.com
This was such an amazing post

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 02:03 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Thank you!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-15 11:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] prlrocks.livejournal.com
I was just thinking about this stuff last week after rewatching Last of the Time Lords. I find the connection between Doctor/Rose and Master/Lucy really fascinating. I think watching Master/Lucy in action tells else alot about the Doctor/Rose relationship and visa versa. The funny thing is I believe that given one or two changes to their lives/personalities, the Master is capable of doing everything the Doctor is and the Doctor is capable of doing everything the Master is.

I never had thought about the yin yang of Rose and the Master when it comes to how they effect the Doctor though. I totally see were you are coming from. Very interesting.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 07:47 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I was just thinking about this stuff last week after rewatching Last of the Time Lords. I find the connection between Doctor/Rose and Master/Lucy really fascinating. I think watching Master/Lucy in action tells else alot about the Doctor/Rose relationship and visa versa. The funny thing is I believe that given one or two changes to their lives/personalities, the Master is capable of doing everything the Doctor is and the Doctor is capable of doing everything the Master is.

The biggest difference, I think, is that the Master and Lucy are much more brittle/fragile than the Doctor and Rose. Where the Doctor and Rose can bend and then snap back into place, the Master and Lucy break.

I never had thought about the yin yang of Rose and the Master when it comes to how they effect the Doctor though. I totally see were you are coming from. Very interesting.

This show has so many interesting things like that to think about, because the characters have so much depth and life to them.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 12:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] okelay.livejournal.com
this is a very good post. though I am sad to see the Doctor alone again at the end of JE, I am quite happy with the episode, with the end of the Doctor and Rose's journey. it is not really an end, they live on,they start a new life.

I've always considered Rose to be brilliant and this post just explains why in much better words than I could say.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 07:49 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
this is a very good post. though I am sad to see the Doctor alone again at the end of JE, I am quite happy with the episode, with the end of the Doctor and Rose's journey. it is not really an end, they live on,they start a new life.

Exactly. It's not the end, it's the end of the beginning. And I think that the Doctor can draw quite a bit of happiness from knowing that Rose is happy (and, being the arrogant bloke that he is, he can't quite imagine that he won't make her happy).

I've always considered Rose to be brilliant and this post just explains why in much better words than I could say.

She's such a fantastic, heroic character that is still so warm and easy to relate to.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 02:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fiery-twilight.livejournal.com
And, though the Doctor died through Rose's kiss, that freed him to become the man who could accept her saying 'forever'. And though he died because he ran to reach her again, that freed him to become a man who could promise her the rest of his life.

Gorgeous. And so very, very true. ♥

This is amazing and is one of the best pieces of writing about the Doctor and Rose's relationship that I've read. There are so many aspects that I've never thought about before and this completely enlightened me. Thank you for writing this.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 07:50 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
You're welcome. Thank you for reading and enjoying it! I love their relationship so much. It really is just about the most beautiful romance that I can think of.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 02:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreaamer.livejournal.com
She doesn't run and she doesn't break. She saves.

Oh wow, this statement is... brilliant. Is there any chance I could use this as a fic prompt/quote? I'll of course give full credit.

"Stay at home with my mum, my boyfriend, my job... or I can chuck it all in for danger and monsters and life or death. What do you think?"

What is this from? Do you have a link?

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 07:52 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Oh wow, this statement is... brilliant. Is there any chance I could use this as a fic prompt/quote? I'll of course give full credit.

Go ahead! I don't mind. I'm flattered.

What is this from? Do you have a link?

It's from the 2005 promos. I'll grab a youtube link for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLxBYDff6RE

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 10:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreaamer.livejournal.com
Thank you so much! :)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 02:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreaamer.livejournal.com
I love this.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 03:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katesutton.livejournal.com
"I create myself," she says in "The Parting of the Ways" and it's still one of the most empowering and powerful statements about identity and coming-into-your-own that I've ever heard.

YES, that. It's why her story was so fantastic. She chose to take the risk and make her life what she wanted over and over. She didn't always act in the wisest of ways; she didn't completely understand what her choices would lead to, but she was the hero of her own story in a way that few female characters get to be. After Journey's End, I think she ended with the same adventure she wanted in a different way and Rose being Rose, I can't imagine she won't choose to make it her own again.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 07:53 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Exactly. She's very much the hero of her story.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 04:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dustuck.livejournal.com
Utterly true, and very eloquent. Thank you for putting this into words for all of us.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-17 04:33 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I'm glad that you enjoyed the essay! Thank you for the comment!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 11:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blackcat-1.livejournal.com
That really was a very eloquently written essay. All I can say is 'yes' to all you have written.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 11:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blackcat-1.livejournal.com
Oh, and:

And, though the Doctor died through Rose's kiss, that freed him to become the man who could accept her saying 'forever'. And though he died because he ran to reach her again, that freed him to become a man who could promise her the rest of his life.

Perfect.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-17 04:32 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Thank you! It's such a beautiful love story.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-16 01:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kasha-g-sahhn.livejournal.com
Thank you, this was a great essay. Even though we might disagree about some points (specifically Ten II), I really appreciate the way you brought the stories together.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-11-17 04:32 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I'm glad that you enjoyed the essay. I really do love thinking about this show.

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