Doctor Who: a further thought on characters

[butterfly]

So, my roommate is currently watching the episode because she was at work last night. And I just rewatched that first conversation with River and the Doctor and... it doesn't track. It literally makes no sense with what she tells us is supposed to be true later on. Her reaction to the Doctor warning her about danger is to be amused. She doesn't seem to take him seriously at all and it certainly doesn't seem to be causing her pain that he doesn't recognize her (and he obviously doesn't recognize her -- she introduces herself to him). All of that comes later.

However, she does tell us in her opening dialogue with Lux that, "I lied. I always lie." This does make me suspect that she's not on the level about knowing the Doctor in the future. I'm still not sure that I think that she and the other crew members are real -- they could be constructs of the little girl/computer core's mind. She also just doesn't act like she knows him -- his personality, his quirks, what makes him a person.

Anyway, I had to leave the room at that point, because the rest of the crew was being assholish to Evangelista and I know this time around that there's no point to it -- she just gets insulted and then dies horribly. Bleh.

Comments

[teskafuture.livejournal.com]

I'm in total and utter agreement.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

If she's supposed to be on the level... then that would be some seriously bad storytelling.

[teskafuture.livejournal.com]

*nods* Let's hope that it isn't bad storytelling and our creepy feelings about her are justified!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Though even if River turns out to be a liar, there's still a fair amount of bad storytelling -- Evangelista being an excellent example of why telling and not showing doesn't work. They show her doing what Lux asks in a competent manner (asking the Doctor and Donna to sign the personal experience things), then show the crew be jackasses to her but tell us that it's because she's stupid. Then they have everyone ignore her when she tries to warn them about something strange having happened (which really affirmed my feeling that they were all jerks) and then finally they show her doing something stupid... but then it's the generic 'horror movie girl' stupid thing. Oh, and everyone gets to find out that (shocker) the Stupid Girl had feelings too but it was pretty damn obvious even before she died that they were hurting her. And, with that, Moffat made it so that I didn't give a damn about any of the rest of the expedition members because they were, to a person, assholes.

[teskafuture.livejournal.com]

Absolutely agree with that whole statement. And that wasn't it. There were all kinds of things that seemed just... off. The Doctor breaking out that he was 'old and thick' didn't seem right. Donna asking out of no where if they were going to shop. Where did that come from? There's a difference between witty lines and ones that are just out of place.

And I have no attachment whatsoever to the expedition group. If they all get caught in the shadows... oh well. Which is completely different from TIP/TSP where I actually bonded a bit that crew.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

There were all kinds of things that seemed just... off. The Doctor breaking out that he was 'old and thick' didn't seem right. Donna asking out of no where if they were going to shop. Where did that come from? There's a difference between witty lines and ones that are just out of place.

Hearing that Moffat pulled out an old script and dusted it off explains so much to me. This didn't feel relevant to the characters at all.

And I have no attachment whatsoever to the expedition group. If they all get caught in the shadows... oh well. Which is completely different from TIP/TSP where I actually bonded a bit that crew.

And TIP was a hell of a lot scarier, too. "Don't turn around," actually got to me. It still creeps me out.

[teskafuture.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hadn't heard that he pulled out an old script.... that makes sense.

"Don't turn around" was definitely more scary!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, I hadn't heard that he pulled out an old script.... that makes sense.

Apparently this is said in the Confidential. However, as I would actually have to watch the Confidential to see this for myself, it's second-hand information at this point.

[kalleah.livejournal.com]

I didn't gather from the Confidential that this was an old script -- just that the idea of the Library itself was an old one.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Someone else is said that he wrote a version of this in something called 'Decalog'? Beats me. That could be a warped rumour based on the fact that Blink was originally a short story, though.

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

I didn't like the new woman at all.
And I think it's getting a bit OTT with the fandom references.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah... the Doctor's rant about spoilers was a bit much.

I didn't like the new woman at all.

Very grating and smug, I thought.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think you're on the right track, and I also think they may be setting up something similar or even a lot bigger for the finale, rather like the Human Nature story introduced the idea that Time Lords could hide inside a fob watch so we weren't too freaked out by Utopia.

Thinking about that little girl, it might just be SM's writing but she was in a complete emotional vacuum. Where was her mother? Any mother would be freaked out and worried sick by that child's state, yet the parents just let Doctor Moon speak to her on her own and didn't bat an eyelid. None of it feels very real to me.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think you're on the right track, and I also think they may be setting up something similar or even a lot bigger for the finale, rather like the Human Nature story introduced the idea that Time Lords could hide inside a fob watch so we weren't too freaked out by Utopia.

Possibly. We also know that 'the darkness' is a theme somewhere because of what Rose says in the trailer.

Thinking about that little girl, it might just be SM's writing but she was in a complete emotional vacuum. Where was her mother? Any mother would be freaked out and worried sick by that child's state, yet the parents just let Doctor Moon speak to her on her own and didn't bat an eyelid. None of it feels very real to me.

I think that's why I jumped right to thinking that she has to be the mind of the world -- her life seems very artificial.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

You know, my cynical self was doubting they'd go this route (because I've been in a bad mood about this episode all day), but the evidence does seem to be mounting up. karenor has a post (http://karenor.livejournal.com/711903.html#cutid1) that takes all the "not right" stuff in the episode one step further, although of course this is just speculation as she doesn't do spoilers at all.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah. If they have her be on the level, it's just bad storytelling. And Moffat's stuff normally holds together on the first viewing.

It kinda amuses (and depresses) me that this pisses me off so much. Before, Moffat annoyed me as a woman. Now, he's annoying me as a writer. Apparently, that bugs me more (suppose we could say that it's the combination of both that's getting to me).

[pluckyyounggirl.livejournal.com]

Before, Moffat annoyed me as a woman. Now, he's annoying me as a writer. Apparently, that bugs me more (suppose we could say that it's the combination of both that's getting to me).

I really, really could not agree with this even an iota more if I tried. Before, I felt like, well, at least, he (sometimes) tells good stories. With this it's just a big, empty vacuum of 'What?!'. Meh.

[goldy-dollar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, things about the relationship were just plain weird. And I would love to find out things aren't as they seem. But I'm a bit wary of getting my hopes up because it could just be lazy writing.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'm not sure how willing I am to trust SM's writing on this episode, given what he did with Evangelista.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

My personal assumption is that she's a conwoman (or Time Agent, or works for the Torchwood Archive). I think the book may be real, but that it's certainly not hers. It might be Rose's.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Her story would hold together a lot better if it is a story. If we're supposed to believe she's telling the truth, there's quite a lot that makes no sense.

If she is a con artist, she's better than Jack (which, for the record, I don't object to. I didn't actually think Jack was all that good as a con -- he was totally coasting on charisma). She's kept the Doctor off-balance pretty successfully for the most of the episode, while Jack's game was given up pretty quickly once he met the Doctor (and Rose had her suspicions, too).

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

To me it seemed like Jack's attitude towards his cons was to have fun, make enough money for the next adventure, and if he got laid instead, he was just as happy with that outcome.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Jack seemed in it for the fun and sex rather than purely the money. Though he did have his (understandable) bitterness towards the Time Agency, too.

[kalleah.livejournal.com]

I think the book may be real, but that it's certainly not hers. It might be Rose's.

Sniff. Wants.

[snale.livejournal.com]

Or Jenny's (and in that case, the times she's referencing aren't "dates", but father-daughter get togethers).
I love the idea that she's using the book without it actually being hers. I suppose she could have gotten the screwdriver from the same place she got the book. If River Song is an archaeologist, it wouldn't be too shocking that she'd stumble upon some interesting "artefacts" somewhere or other. And if she's a conwoman, she might have gotten them by ill means.
The thing I hope supports this theory is the weird looks Donna was giving River throughout. Donna seems to have picked up something (and we know she's good at finding patterns). I hope we get to find out what that was.

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

I hope that's it. Then it'd be less bad.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It would make the story actually make sense, which would be a point in its favor.

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

Sense making ftw

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Very, VERY good point. I'm seriously starting to come round to the "she's totally lying" side of the anti-River camp.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Her early responses just really don't fit the 'actually knows the Doctor' thing. Or, at least, she doesn't know exactly how to pull her con yet and is feeling her way through the possibilities.

[thunderemerald.livejournal.com]

Very, very likely! DAMN, I can't wait to see what the Moff will throw at us in the end....

[starlightmoonla.livejournal.com]

However, she does tell us in her opening dialogue with Lux that, "I lied. I always lie." This does make me suspect that she's not on the level about knowing the Doctor in the future.

Yep. It's almost as if she knew the basics about him but, as you mentioned, the quirks and anything else that makes the Doctor the Doctor... she just didn't seem to know that part.

I'm really interested to see just how this little girl fits into the whole picture myself for next week and most importantly finding out which world is reality and which one is just make believe. I was still going back and forth by the end of it.

because the rest of the crew was being assholish to Evangelista and I know this time around that there's no point to it -- she just gets insulted and then dies horribly. Bleh.

I just hated the way her character was treated during her short time there.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yep. It's almost as if she knew the basics about him but, as you mentioned, the quirks and anything else that makes the Doctor the Doctor... she just didn't seem to know that part.

Like Rose pretending to be a Time Agent for Jack -- basing her words on what he's saying.

I'm really interested to see just how this little girl fits into the whole picture myself for next week and most importantly finding out which world is reality and which one is just make believe. I was still going back and forth by the end of it.

I'm totally banking on the 'she is the Library World computer' theory. Or related to it in some way.

I just hated the way her character was treated during her short time there.

Yes. He created a 'stupid' girl to be insulted and then killed off. Well done on that, Moffat. And her stupidity was so much 'tell' and very little 'show' considering we've seen characters that aren't supposed to be stupid wander off on their own without trying to catch other people's attention. She actually seemed really sweet and competent enough at what she was asked to go (check the contracts and then try to get the Doctor and Donna to sign them), but just horribly nervous and bullied terribly by that crew.

[shaela]

I’m still not sure that I think that she and the other crew members are real—they could be constructs of the little girl/computer core’s mind.

The more I think about it, the more likely this seems. It took a powerful and experienced telepath to send a message to the Doctor’s psychic paper in “New Earth.” I’m not sure how Professor Song is supposed to have managed it. But if it was actually the computer core… well, brain the size of a planet, after all.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It would definitely make more sense. Unless Song whips out some paper of her own next episode to explain how she sent it (and it's battered and ancient and she says, "Oh, you gave it to me.").

[pluckyyounggirl.livejournal.com]

Everything about them just feels as utterly wrong as everything about the Doctor and Rose, or the Doctor and Donna, feels right. I really hope she'll turn out to be a Lying Liar Who Lies, because anything else just doesn't make any fucking sense. (I like the con woman/time agent idea, actually.)