Torchwood: On Gwen

[butterfly]

I think the thing that confuses me about 'Adrift' is people disliking what Gwen does because they say she's being inconsiderate and not thinking of anyone else. Because she's very definitely thinking of other people -- she's thinking of Nikki, who says that the hope is killing her, who says that she needs to know, who is living in a state of suspended animation because she doesn't know, unable to move on with her life. And, once Gwen meets and talks to Jonah, she informs Jonah of the situation and he's the one to ask to see his mother.

But Gwen is just supposed to know that Nikki's full of bullshit and that she'd rather keep the fairytale image of her son in her head than deal with the truth of a man who has been tormented and broken by what he's been through. She's supposed to ignore what both Nikki and Jonah say that they want and make the decision that Nikki couldn't handle it.

If Gwen had done that, I have a really hard time believing that fandom wouldn't have hated her even more for making that choice. Oi, that Gwen Cooper, thinks she knows better than the man's own mother! How dare she!

Gwen chose to believe Nikki and respect her choices. She got burned for it. That's just life. People can't always handle what they say they can handle. But sometimes they can. Sometimes they can handle so much more. All we can do is respect people's choices about their own lives and deal with what happens because of them.

Comments

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

Yes!

And guys, Gwen and Rhys were having a typical married couples argument. It wasn't Rhys knocking her down like he deserves (why are women the only ones who get bashing like this?)

And as for Gwen disobeying Jack and being a bad employee - dude, I think that he lost all right to act like Torchwood is a typical job by Cyberman. In fact, he has since he manipulated Tosh and Owen to join him and built up Torchwood three in the Doctor's honor. These guys are more a family than anything else, and characters need to be judged that way. Or, if you're not, then don't just bash Gwen for things like that.

And wtf on the idea that Ianto was teaching Gwen a lesson. He was attempting to help her. And I say that Ianto and Jack not having a fallout is IC because it seems to take a cyberized girlfriend in the basement to make either of them deal with anything.

....I suppose I have read one too many fics labeled it Gwen and Ianto and I was hoping for friendship fic and got agenda bashing fic.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yes to all three of those.

Particularly the last two -- everyone ignores Jack half the time and Ianto clearly likes Gwen. They're friends. Why is friendship such a hard concept for this fandom to grasp?

[amalthia]

Loved your post. :)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

...boy, reading my ljfriends' posts makes me ever so glad not to be in Torchwood fandom.

::likes Gwen, loooves Tosh::

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

TW fandom is so... yeah, it's probably best not to be in it. I try to avoid most of it whenever I can.

[adelate]

Yeah, I agree with you. ...wow, that made an excellent comment, didn't it? Haha.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hee! It's nice to hear, though!

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Fandom would have gone crazy about what a terrible person she is if she'd decided not to tell Nikki. And it's not as if Gwen even knows about the 20-hour screaming jags, because Jack - presumably because he's manipulating the whole thing and is hoping it turns out exactly the way it does so she'll stop bothering him - doesn't mention that. I do like to think that once she's had more time to process it, Nikki would decide that having Jonah, even a very damaged Jonah who's only lucid a few hours a day, is still better than spending the rest of her life not knowing.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Indeed! But Gwen is supposed to know to ask about the screaming. Because it's not at all on Jack to tell her -- she's supposed to know to ask.

I do like to think that once she's had more time to process it, Nikki would decide that having Jonah, even a very damaged Jonah who's only lucid a few hours a day, is still better than spending the rest of her life not knowing.

I do hope so, because when he is lucid, he's going to be missing and wanting his mother so badly. Before Gwen got there, he didn't even really believe that he'd made it back home!

[shaela]

I think the thing that confuses me about ‘Adrift’ is people disliking what Gwen does because they say she’s being inconsiderate and not thinking of anyone else.

People are saying that? (What am I saying? Of course they are.)

I thought Gwen was brilliant in that episode. Clever, compassionate, persistent, and just all-around wonderful. (I could’ve used more of that Gwen in season one.) And I think she made the best decision she could with the information she had. But somehow I’m not surprised that there are people who hate her for it. They’d probably hate her no matter what she did. (You mentioned her making the opposite choice. But if she’d made the same choice and things had worked out, people would hate her for being too perfect.)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

But if she’d made the same choice and things had worked out, people would hate her for being too perfect.

Ah, you're so right there. There really is no way for Gwen to win, in certain segments of TW fandom (just as there's no way for Rose to win for certain DW folk). She's a strong woman that the lead male has squishy feelings for and thus is evil.

[sensiblecat.livejournal.com]

In any case, if you're a person of integrity (and I think Gwen is, though she's sometimes confused about the men in her life), you need to do the right thing even if you do get bawled out for it. Because, ultimately, you need to live with yourself and the choices you make.

I have the feeling that Nikki wouldn't be able to keep away from Jonah for ever, even if she intended to at first.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

In any case, if you're a person of integrity (and I think Gwen is, though she's sometimes confused about the men in her life), you need to do the right thing even if you do get bawled out for it. Because, ultimately, you need to live with yourself and the choices you make.

Exactly. Gwen believes that people have a right to know the truth about their own lives. It's Nikki's son out there and if it were Gwen's child, she'd want to know. She's have still wanted to know, in the end.

I have the feeling that Nikki wouldn't be able to keep away from Jonah for ever, even if she intended to at first.

I hope so. He was so happy to see her, before the screaming started.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I'm completely with you there, and don't get it, either.

If Gwen had done that, I have a really hard time believing that fandom wouldn't have hated her even more for making that choice. Oi, that Gwen Cooper, thinks she knows better than the man's own mother! How dare she!

So true. She would have been bashed either way. And you know what? Ianto, if he had been in Gwen's position, doing the exact same thing she did in Adrift, would have been praised for his compassion, and if anyone would have gotten bashed, it would have been Jack for not telling Ianto all he needed to know from the start. Because fandom works that way.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

Yes. I actually suspect that Out of the Rain was written last year with Gwen in the Ianto role (because of the weird bit where Ianto seems to know Jack's immortal but the others don't - they can't figure out what he's doing in a clip of him shooting himself in the head? Really?) - but if it had aired with Gwen in that role, with the exact same lines, fandom would be full of moaning about Gwen's 'faux' compassion/she's such a Mary Sue/etc.

[freeze883.livejournal.com]

"But Gwen is just supposed to know that Nikki's full of bullshit"

Finally someone said it!

I really hated that bit where Nikki totally changed her mind because if it was Gwen and Gwen's son, we all know that Gwen would be with him for those 4 hours every single day.

The bit with Rhys "putting Gwen in her place" really annoyed me because Gwen was clearly thinking about how to help the missing people's families rather than Rhys thinking about himself and how he wants a kid.

But you are right no matter what Gwen does some people will hate her which makes me sad. And as someone else mentioned it the whole Ianto setting up Gwen bit is really stupid as Ianto would never be that hurtful to Gwen, he actually likes her, I will never believe he was doing anything other than try to help her in that bit.

Sorry didn't mean to go off on one, on your lovely journal...

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I really hated that bit where Nikki totally changed her mind because if it was Gwen and Gwen's son, we all know that Gwen would be with him for those 4 hours every single day.

So true! She'd be there for her child and she'd be glad to know the truth because Gwen would realize that whether or not she knows about it, her child would still be suffering and that's when they need their parents the most. The choice is between her child screaming for twenty hours and being desperately lonely for the other four or her child screaming for twenty hours but knowing that his mother is there for him, alive and loving him, for the rest of the time.

But you are right no matter what Gwen does some people will hate her which makes me sad. And as someone else mentioned it the whole Ianto setting up Gwen bit is really stupid as Ianto would never be that hurtful to Gwen, he actually likes her, I will never believe he was doing anything other than try to help her in that bit.

Some people will never believe that the canon characters don't hate the lead female the same way that they do. Nothing they write is about the actual characters -- it's all about their own prejudices and hates.

[sol-se.livejournal.com]

Agreed!

She got burned for it. That's just life.

That's sort of Torchwood's motto there.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It really kinda is! Life can suck, a lot, but at least you can get sex and friends out of it.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

I think the thing that confuses me about 'Adrift' is people disliking what Gwen does because they say she's being inconsiderate and not thinking of anyone else.

Yeah. I actually saw commentary (from generally reasonable people) who hoped that Gwen had "learned her lesson." Que? So... we don't want Gwen to go all out to help other people?

For various reasons, I found "Adrift" to be a very difficult episode to watch, but it was a good episode and it made me appreciate Gwen even more. And of course, as you say, if she'd decided Nikki shouldn't know, people would've been dissing her for that, too. Poor Gwen, she can't win with this fandom. Either she's too perfect, or too evil.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I actually saw commentary (from generally reasonable people) who hoped that Gwen had "learned her lesson." Que? So... we don't want Gwen to go all out to help other people?

The sexism is strong in this fandom. Why do shows that break the boundaries and have strong female characters have fans that only wish those female characters would crash and burn? Saw it all the time in BtVS, too, people who wanted Buffy to 'get what she deserved'.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

That's cause our girl has bigger balls than anyone in fandom, and they pheer her, yo.

:)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hee! No doubt true. They know that the woman who makes Jack back down frequently could kick their asses.

[spiletta42.livejournal.com]

Seriously. I thought that was Gwen's absolute best episode to date. She stood up to Jack when he was being suspiciously unreasonable, and she followed the wishes of the people actually suffering.

I was appalled at the mother's response to the situation, and really felt for Gwen. The Torchwood fandom, at least the vocal part of it, is seriously warped. The sane people should secretly gather somewhere, or something.

I think there's some scientific formula where posting volume increases as ability to process logic decreases. I haven't seen a fandom more in need of a collective valium since I bailed on Voyager.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Seriously. I thought that was Gwen's absolute best episode to date. She stood up to Jack when he was being suspiciously unreasonable, and she followed the wishes of the people actually suffering.

She was fantastic and I absolutely adored her.

I think there's some scientific formula where posting volume increases as ability to process logic decreases. I haven't seen a fandom more in need of a collective valium since I bailed on Voyager.

Could be. DW fandom is pretty nutso and they've been around and huge for ages.

[silly-cleo.livejournal.com]

Oh, seriously? I didn't dislike Gwen for her choices, I LOVED her for them. I also loved that she got burned and I also love that Jack wasn't in the right, either. Gwen had no way of knowing Nikki would react that way, she had no way of knowing about the scream, which up to that point, Nikki was GLAD to know about Jonah.

And alas, you're right about her being in a lose/lose situation with regards to fandom.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, seriously? I didn't dislike Gwen for her choices, I LOVED her for them. I also loved that she got burned and I also love that Jack wasn't in the right, either. Gwen had no way of knowing Nikki would react that way, she had no way of knowing about the scream, which up to that point, Nikki was GLAD to know about Jonah.

Yeah. I like that TW is full of people making choices and they don't always work out and the show doesn't demonize anyone for the choices that they make.

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

I really don't understand fandom sometimes. A large number of fans take the same hectoring, lecturing tone with Gwen that they do with Rose-she needs to learn her lesson! Everything is Not About Her! She isn't that important to the Doctor/Jack!-and it's one that I don't see them take with male characters. Here's a thought-maybe Gwen did the best she knew to do in the face of a horrible situation, with Jack obstructing her and lying to her at every turn. Maybe she did her job. Maybe fandom should stop denigrating wonderful female characters, even if they ARE flawed.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

There's definitely a strong element of sexism going on in both fandoms. It's all the more pronounced because the show itself is so very feminist. On the show, women are capable not only of doing the same things as men, but having the same kind of story arcs.

As other people have mentioned, Rose has the classic hero's journey of leaving home. But because she's a woman, people hate her for 'abandoning' her family. It's sexism, pure and simple.

Gwen stands up to Jack and parts of fandom simply hate her for it. She's supposed to trust that he knows what he's doing, despite the fact that they tear Gwen down if they think that she acts like she 'knows best'. It's okay for men to know best but not women?

[tijsmans.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

I ♥ Gwen.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

She's really great.

[librarianstales.livejournal.com]

You know, I really don't watch Torchwood. Rather, I peak at an occasional episode but it never did much for me. But you and someone else on my flist have such different takes on it, that it is like I'm hearing about different tv shows.

Either Torchwood!Jack is a horrible, horrible man that uses and abuses Ianto with his Gwen-fancying ways or he is so owned by both of them and they (all 3) like it that way.