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butterflyI'm missing Buffy really hard this week. I just realized the other day that none of the shows that I currently watch have gay characters (and only two that I can think of that have acknowledged the existence of us queers in a positive fashion -- Smallville and Dexter. Doctor Who has both positive gay images and complex, strong, good women, but isn't currently airing). For all that Willow tended to be my least favorite Scooby and I found her passive-aggressive and frustrating, I miss having an acknowledged gay regular who has gay relationships on-screen.
Buffy had its race issues (though, by the last season, they were getting a bit better), but I really miss its pro-feminist/pro-queer slant.
Specifically, the notion that women come in a variety of personalities (and shapes) and that this is good. That women can be friends with each other (that women can be friends with men). That women can be leaders.
I am... both hopeful and fearful of where Supernatural is currently going, female character-wise. Dean appears to be objectifying women more and getting more misogynist in his descriptions of them. We have two strong, reoccurring female characters, but one is amoral and one is a demon (currently evil by definition). Jo, last season, really disappointed me in No Exit because she came across as very immature (like Dawn in S5 of Buffy, but Dawn was 13-14 as opposed to Jo's 19-21). Ellen, of course, was explicitly described as 'not a hunter' ("hunter's wife", actually, which is probably worse) in her introduction.
I really like both Bela and Ruby so far. There are a lot of really bad, anti-female places that Kripke could go with their characters. And that makes me nervous. Because the guy who likes the music that Kripke likes objectifies women (ETA: this was, in fact, a reference solely to Dean -- and now we see why descriptions rather than names are bad and confusing! 'the guy' = 'Dean').
I'm seriously considering dropping Heroes because the gender issues are making me uncomfortable. I still haven't watched last week's Prison Break because they killed Sarah, but T-Bag is still standing.
Dexter has embraced both 'women are cutthroat bitches in the workplace' and 'women can't handle the emotional stress of being in charge' stereotypes. Which is kinda impressive, in a depressing way (though prejudices are often contradictory -- that's part of what makes them so baffling).
*sigh*
And, of course, I've spoken about my issues with Larrin (though we can add her inexplicably revealing outfit to my list of annoyances.
Smallville is doing fairly well (when it objectifies, it does tend to objectify both genders). Bones, Numb3rs, and House have their issues but do not tend to ever actually offend me.
Buffy had its race issues (though, by the last season, they were getting a bit better), but I really miss its pro-feminist/pro-queer slant.
Specifically, the notion that women come in a variety of personalities (and shapes) and that this is good. That women can be friends with each other (that women can be friends with men). That women can be leaders.
I am... both hopeful and fearful of where Supernatural is currently going, female character-wise. Dean appears to be objectifying women more and getting more misogynist in his descriptions of them. We have two strong, reoccurring female characters, but one is amoral and one is a demon (currently evil by definition). Jo, last season, really disappointed me in No Exit because she came across as very immature (like Dawn in S5 of Buffy, but Dawn was 13-14 as opposed to Jo's 19-21). Ellen, of course, was explicitly described as 'not a hunter' ("hunter's wife", actually, which is probably worse) in her introduction.
I really like both Bela and Ruby so far. There are a lot of really bad, anti-female places that Kripke could go with their characters. And that makes me nervous. Because the guy who likes the music that Kripke likes objectifies women (ETA: this was, in fact, a reference solely to Dean -- and now we see why descriptions rather than names are bad and confusing! 'the guy' = 'Dean').
I'm seriously considering dropping Heroes because the gender issues are making me uncomfortable. I still haven't watched last week's Prison Break because they killed Sarah, but T-Bag is still standing.
Dexter has embraced both 'women are cutthroat bitches in the workplace' and 'women can't handle the emotional stress of being in charge' stereotypes. Which is kinda impressive, in a depressing way (though prejudices are often contradictory -- that's part of what makes them so baffling).
*sigh*
And, of course, I've spoken about my issues with Larrin (though we can add her inexplicably revealing outfit to my list of annoyances.
Smallville is doing fairly well (when it objectifies, it does tend to objectify both genders). Bones, Numb3rs, and House have their issues but do not tend to ever actually offend me.
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(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 04:17 pm (UTC)I'm really curious to hear more about that! :)
x
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:09 am (UTC)And then there's the Maya storyline, which is really feeling like a retread of Niki -- she can't control her power and is killing people because of it (and then we found out that Niki didn't even integrate and heal at the end of last season like it seemed she had -- like Claire, she's back at square one for no particular reason).
And there's Candice/Michelle/whoever -- she gets killed and is also depersonalized. We don't know what her face looks like -- hey, she's a fat chick, that's all we really need to know, right? Just... flames, on the side of my face.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 04:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 02:54 pm (UTC)I hate it when that happens.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 04:43 pm (UTC)I've ditched Prison Break. Not only have I been unimpressed with the writing this season, when I heard they killed Sara off I was so incensed I decided to boycott the show indefinitely. I'm really not sure i will ever be able to watch it again, tbh.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:15 am (UTC)I was so thrilled and proud. Because there was no plot or character reason for them to put in 'boyfriend' instead of 'girlfriend', they just did. Because, sometimes, guys have boyfriends and not girlfriends. The very casual nature of it made me very happy. It was all 'of course there are gay people working at the Planet'.
I've ditched Prison Break. Not only have I been unimpressed with the writing this season, when I heard they killed Sara off I was so incensed I decided to boycott the show indefinitely. I'm really not sure i will ever be able to watch it again, tbh.
Yeah. Killing off Sarah (especially after the way they killed off Veronica in the beginning of S2) really puts me off. I don't think I'm going to be able to watch any more of it.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 04:44 pm (UTC)Jo was very much an older version of Dawn. Bleh.
Is Sarah the prison doctor? I don't watch that show, but I thought she was the only female lead character and also the lead male's love interest?
Smallville is doing fairly well (when it objectifies, it does tend of objectify both genders).
This is one of the things I love best about Smallville. I think it was season four when everyone started getting naked? And it really was everyone, including Martha and Lionel. How many shows even think to objectify the over 50/over 60 set? I think it's cool of them.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:19 am (UTC)She was all of those things... and then they killed her and left her head in a box for another character to find. The actress wanted to take off work to spend time with her family, but I'm sure the writers could have found a less vicious way of taking her character out of play.
This is one of the things I love best about Smallville. I think it was season four when everyone started getting naked? And it really was everyone, including Martha and Lionel. How many shows even think to objectify the over 50/over 60 set? I think it's cool of them.
*nods* Everyone is eyecandy in the Smallville universe. It's refreshingly equal.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 03:00 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 02:58 pm (UTC)*nods* It was really horrific. And it wasn't even for anything she'd done herself -- it was to send a message that the bad guys are serious. It's about the guys.
Others in here mentioned Veronica -- how was she killed? I saw half of season one, so I know who these characters are, but that's about it.
At the beginning of season two, Veronica is shot and her body is carried away in several black garbage bags. Once women have been cut into pieces twice, I get the message that I'm not welcome.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 04:54 pm (UTC)"Because the guy who likes the music that Kripke likes objectifies women."
But- my husband is a die hard metal head. He doesn't objectify women. So maybe there's hope. *G*
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:04 am (UTC)I was making a roundabout reference to Dean there, implying that because Kripke gave Dean his music sense, the misogyny might be coming from Kripke too. But I was too vague, I think. There was no generalization meant from my corner of the room; it was just a badly-worded sentence (oh, the hazards of posting and then immediately popping off to work).
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 02:15 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 05:19 pm (UTC)On a barely related note, have you seen the movie Lost and Delirious? I both loved and hated it, and would be interested in your opinion.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:23 am (UTC)Yeah -- I'm really hoping that Claire starts showing some of the common sense that she was exhibiting last season.
Bones I love.
Bones is great. My only sadness is the lack of a gay character. But I adore the Angela/Jack romance -- it feels like a true connection between two people who respect and love each other. I love the family vibe that they've developed. I adore the Booth/Brennen friendship.
On a barely related note, have you seen the movie Lost and Delirious? I both loved and hated it, and would be interested in your opinion.
I never have. What's it about?
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 02:49 am (UTC)I think it would be near-impossible to represent every group in every show, make it feel real, and portray them all positively. A show like Heroes, with a big sprawling cast, had better step up and give us lots of diversity, but shows about small groups are different. I have no idea if I had another point, because I started this reply before Heroes started (and my thoughts on that will be in my journal) . . . oh well.
Anyway, Lost and Delirous. Boarding school setting, lesbian characters, fencing . . . I'm torn as to actually recommending it. As I said, I both loved and hated it. It was a powerful film and it's stuck with me pretty strongly since I watched it a couple of weeks ago. I don't want to spoil it by explaining my response to it, but I will if you really insist.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 03:02 pm (UTC)Oh, yeah, I'd hate it to feel forced (though the only reason it would is if the writers didn't know how to write gay characters and integrate them). Bones does really good on gender balance and character relationships, so, like I said, it doesn't bug me unless I'm thinking about the lack of gay characters on the shows that I watch in general.
Anyway, Lost and Delirous. Boarding school setting, lesbian characters, fencing . . . I'm torn as to actually recommending it. As I said, I both loved and hated it. It was a powerful film and it's stuck with me pretty strongly since I watched it a couple of weeks ago. I don't want to spoil it by explaining my response to it, but I will if you really insist.
Hmm. I'm willing to take a chance on 'boarding school lesbians'. I'll go ahead and add it to my netflix queue.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 05:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:25 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 05:39 pm (UTC)Ok, I'm really upset with Heroes right now because last season Claire was kickass, she embraced her duty as someone special to help others where and when she could. She made smart decisions. She was a great character. So I'm really upset that so far this season her whole storyline has been about her trying to be normal - and her main interaction has been with a boy in a romantic pairing. And he's a total jackass. See, what makes me upset is the transition from kickass fighter to jackass boyfriend in her character arc. And so far none of the other women have stepped up to the plate either (I have some hope for Monica, but we'll see). I thought Niki had integrated her personalities and got herself together, but apparently not and the Wondertwins' powers are predicated on the dependence of the woman for the mere presence of the man. Bad form in a show that last season had been much more positive (I felt) toward women. It almost feels like it has regressed the standard for women back to lover, dependent or unstable.
OTOH, I'm not bothered by SPN and women. One reason is that I feel like Dean is acting in character. Maybe a little more so given his life span issue, but still it's within character. The new women are evil, but strong and I'm usually content with strong on any show - but especially a show that hasn't been particularly good with female characters in the past. In other words, I have accepted that SPN isn't going to have wonderful women role models since Mom burned to death in the pilot and became the driving force by reason of absence for the characters. So if they have a strong woman character I'm ok, even if she does turn out to be the epitome of evil.
For me, whether a show gets on My List (which is where anything or anyone goes that pisses me off) is determined by my expectation. If I'm still watching SPN, my expectations are low enough to not be too bothered my the absence of good female characters (although purely gratuitous titillation does bother me, and the show does cross the line at times). However I had higher expectations for Heroes and am not thrilled by it.
I was very happy with Atlantis with the evil dream Sheppard because it had many female characters having conversations important to the plot, not revolving around men. And then I shrugged and didn't mind when Larrin showed up in her outfit, because she could also kickass and she was the leader. In that case, I could offset the aspects that bothered me with the aspects that didn't.
Also, though, I have a higher tolerance for socially backward guys than many people. I grew up on a farm and many of the hired hands were men who, for whatever reason, just didn't have a clue about how to treat women properly. And by that I mean as an equal. Yet despite that, these were sweet guys who didn't mean any harm by it. They just... Well, society turned it's back on them as much as they did on it, and they muddled through. They were socially handicapped, is how I always viewed it, and to be pitied not protested against. Recently I was going to the grocery store with my son and there was this older guy sitting on a bench asking all the women that went by whether they had a boyfriend, and various other intrusive (but not sexual) things. He asked me if my 2 year old was my boyfriend, and I laughed and actually spoke to him for a few minutes whereas the woman going past him right before me had rolled her eyes and grimaced. To me, he was just some poor lonely guy who had no clue how to interact with people and was reaching out in an inappropriate way. Yet when I spoke to him for a minute or two, he was very sweet and not at all a jerk. Some guys are like that. I think Dean is like that, if I were to pick any character on TV to recognize as one of these guys from my childhood.
I don't know if any of this made sense? To me, it's about my expectations, the characters' intentions and if it's "merely" sexual hijinks or deeper anti-woman rhetoric.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 07:23 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 03:03 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 04:50 pm (UTC)But, yeah, there are things about her that could be interesting, but I'm fed up with the female power = danger storyline, and the female as mysterious storyline, and the women subordinated to male power storyline. It was cute that until the lightening squirted out of her fingers she was pretty much playing exactly the same character as in Veronica Mars, but I'm not sure if I credit the writers with that much cleverness - it could have been accidental synchrony.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 07:37 pm (UTC)I will never leave Heroes as long as Nathan is around and I won't stay one minute longer than after he's gone.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 12:59 am (UTC)Sorry for the confusion -- that was my way of trying to mention Dean without saying his name yet again. 'the guy' was only in reference to Dean.
Note to self: 'cute' character description = bad.
I will never leave Heroes as long as Nathan is around and I won't stay one minute longer than after he's gone.
It took me a really long time to warm up to Nathan and I'm still wobbly on him at times. I'm currently sticking around for the Matt, Mohinder and Molly plotline
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 04:57 am (UTC)I loved Nathan from the minute I first laid eyes on him. He is and always will be my absolute favourite.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 08:19 pm (UTC)Yeah. I'm behind on the show but accidentally got spoiled for that, and it killed my interest in the show stone dead. This is the third time they've done this: Lincoln's ex in S1, Veronica in truly horrendous fashion in S2, now Sara. I...really think I get the message, thanks but no thanks.
This is going to sound a bizarre suggestion (especially because it's really not of the genre) but, um, have you tried One Tree Hill re: female characters/friendships? I honestly think it has a variety of great female characters, and that it does a really good job with making the multiple female friendships suitably layered and also different from each other. It's not brilliant re: queer characters, but it does have a decently handled arc in the second season. (Also, I know subtext is just subtext, but the Brooke/Peyton friendship really, really does have a lot of it, and is nicely done.)
As a possible second rec, I can't remember if you watch Spooks/MI5? The GLBT side of things is pretty non-existent, but it does have a number of well drawn female characters kicking ass. (Ros Myers especially rocks my world, but I've loved pretty much all of them.)
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-29 11:26 pm (UTC)Dexter plays with a lot of stereotypes. Angel isn't quite the Macho Latin he's initially presented as, Vince Masuka not quite just the nerdy/horny asian lab tech. Even the main character - Dexter - is at his flattest level - the serial killer sterotyped nerdy white guy loner.
But I think more of it is about surviving past torments, and so as characters get more time, they go beyond sterotypes - usually. And then you have the obvious where Lundy is looking to Deb and challenging her with the Case, saying she could use her experiences with the ITK, which sometimes cripples her - to become a much stronger person and get an even worse killer.
I'm not saying there aren't problems. So much as... I'm giving the writing a chance to follow through on 'character growth' that comments and transcends stereotyping rather than just exhibiting it...
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:32 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:25 am (UTC)It's pretty consistent. Then someone said 'I hate Xena because it objectifies women, and they all wear these skimpy clothing', actually I think it was a review in a magazine mocking an episode and focusing on clothing. I was like 'what?' Because if anyone had watched more then half an hour of the show they would have worked out that Xena and Gabrielle, and all the female characters are truly in charge of their destinies, and their lives do not revolve around the men.
Xena is a seriously good warrior, she's really scary and guys freak out when they hear their name, they don't say 'Oh, that's the women with the short leather dress' they say 'That's Xena, the destroyer of nations' her gender isn't even a plot point.
Unlike say...Buffy, which is always about her as a young woman, but then, it's in a more contemporary setting.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:31 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 02:05 am (UTC)Oh yeah, the amazing shrinking BGSB (bilious green sports bra), and it does shrink. It's one of those in-joke things. They even mention it a few times on the show. That's the thing I liked about the show, there was a lot of in-joke comedic commentary.
Here's dialogue between Xena and Gabrielle, when this guy falls for Xena:
"Why does this always happen?"
"It's the blue eyes, the leather, some guys just love leather."
"I think a wardrobe change is in order."
"You could wear chainmail."
"Yeah, but I think that'd just attract a kinkier group."
"You’re probably right."
"On the other hand, I could just stop bathing and wear a smelly wolf skin. That’d turn ‘em off."
"That’s true. Of course, you’d also be traveling alone."
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 02:53 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 03:06 pm (UTC)All I know about it is that it stars CC and that it's (possibly) a vampire show.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-31 05:08 am (UTC)You can watch full episodes of the show on Lifetime's website:
http://videos.lifetimetv.com/
Although the newer are listed first, so you'll have to click through a couple of pages to get to the earlier ones. (And disregard the "season 2" stuff -- they split the only season in two and called the second half of it season 2.)
The only disappointing thing of note in the TV adaptation is that they had to leave out one of the book's supporting characters, Tony, because he's the lead in a spin-off book series Huff wrote and hopes to be able to sell the adaptation rights to separately. That means we lost Tony's relationship with Henry (Tony's gay), and Henry's canonical bisexuality from the books isn't represented onscreen.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-11-04 05:15 am (UTC)And, wow, you are so right about Henry being eyecandy. He's gorgeous.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:28 pm (UTC)I'm glad you made that point, 'cause the whole LaGuerta/Pascal thing, for me, is a gaping and EXTREMELY annoying hole in what's otherwise been a great second season so far. (But I'm curious if you think Debra falls into the second category too? I was worried about it, but so far I think they've handled her PTSD reasonably well. Then again I've always been a severe Deb fan.) Anyway, the other week when a character said something like "[Esmee] set women in this department back 20 years" I actually yelled You're telling me now?? out loud. Sigh.
(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 01:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2007-10-30 03:18 pm (UTC)Deb is made of awesome.