Doctor Who: Did we need Martha?

[butterfly]

Because Russell T Davies seemed to feel that the show needed to have a character who would fall in (unrequited) love with the Doctor, thus illustrating the difference between Rose and everyone else. Did it?

In some superficial ways, Martha is quite a lot like Rose -- pretty, clever Londoner girls, both of them. They even get some echo dialogue in the early episodes. The show puts them in comparable situations frequently. There are both parallels to draw and contrasts to mark.

Mostly, though, there's the Doctor.

I wasn't surprised about Martha's emotional arc. And, though it was heavy-handed at times ("He had to fall in love with a human... and it wasn't me."), I actually do agree with RTD that it was necessary. In order to establish someone as One Thing, you need to establish someone else as Other Thing. And, in this particular context, he wanted to make a distinction between one character and the entire history and future of characters to come.

Yes -- Martha was, in part, all about how special Rose was. Which sucks if you hate Rose. If you hate Rose Tyler, then a series of television that is basically saying, "Yeah, that blonde chick? One of a kind," is pretty much guaranteed to piss you off (and, of course, to the person desperately missing Rose, having episode after episode point out how irreplaceable she was is hardly going to help in the process of getting over her).

But... as the show makes very, very clear -- Rose isn't special in the ultimate 'best person ever' way. She's special in the 'best person for this one specific character/relationship' way. The Doctor writes out that she's 'perfect Rose' and, to him, she is. Now, was Rose actually portrayed as a 'perfect' character?

*bursts out laughing*

She could be petty and jealous. She wandered off. She had a tendency to throw herself into dangerous situations for personal reasons. She nearly destroyed the world because she couldn't listen to instructions. Rose Tyler was flawed.

In a lot of ways, Martha is a 'better' person. Higher class (which matters to some people). More education. Better at staying put and following instructions. Tends to do the right thing. Not so apt to get into trouble. Again, not a perfect person (she, too, had the flaw of 'jealousy'), but from an objective standpoint, probably a better bet to make. But, as they say, the heart has reasons that reason cannot know.

Now, Martha is not the first time that New Who made the distinction between Rose and Other Companions. In fact, every time that the Doctor took on someone else, it was made clear that the Doctor and Rose were a unit and other folk were nice but not necessary (something that Jack took much more easily than Mickey). Rose is the person who invites Adam and Jack on board and is also clearly the impetus for the Doctor inviting Sarah Jane on board.

There are two pre-S3 examples of the difference between Rose and Everyone Else. The first is in The Parting of the Ways, when the Doctor sends Rose home, keeps her out of danger, while everyone else is involved in the fighting (made very clear when he calls her over to help him with the wiring and takes her out of the 'active fighter' count). The second is in School Reunion and the conversation in the street that ends with the Doctor telling Rose that she won't be left behind and very nearly telling her that he loves her ("Imagine watching that happen to someone you-").

And SR, of course, has Sarah Jane -- who serves as our stand-in for Old School Companions. The Doctor very clearly has both admiration and affection for Sarah Jane (just as he does for Martha), but he's utterly thrown by the notion that he was her 'life' and that she couldn't move on without him (we see this echoed when Martha says that the Doctor is 'everything' to her, while she's basically a side-note to him -- a fun, smart, lovable side-note, but a side-note nonetheless). And both Sarah Jane and Martha have to choose to say good-bye to the Doctor in order to start getting over him.

Back when S3 was first airing, I pondered the notion that RTD was using Martha to 'ramp down' from the idea of the Doctor as a sexual/romantic person. Grace was the ramp up, a person that the Doctor was interested in who liked him not his life; Rose was the bridge (the apex; the climax; the transformation), someone he adored who adored both him and the life he offered; and Martha was someone who liked the life he offered, thought he was attractive, but didn't seem to know or like him very much as a person. Going right from Grace and Rose to a Doctor/companion relationship that was completely lacking in romance/sexuality would either be a bit of a harsh break or possibly lead to confusion. So, in order to make his divisions clear, RTD put in an intermediary position where the Doctor was clearly still a sexual/romantic figure ('lost prince') but had no interest in pursuing sex or romance (and I find it so fascinating that both of the 'unsuitable' choices were doctors -- it may show that the Doctor needs someone who complements him, not someone who echoes him).

RTD appears to believe that Martha was a necessary character to show the difference between Rose and the rest of the Doctor's companions. In balance, though I think her part could have been more strongly written, I agree.

ETA: In the end, I think the real problem with Martha is that they only had a six-episode story to tell with her (Smith & Jones through Gridlock and Utopia through Last of the Time Lords). She would have worked better if she hadn't stayed the whole season.

Comments

[dettiot.livejournal.com]

These are some excellent points--I think that if Martha had been written better, the choices that RTD was making could have been much stronger and clearer to the audience as a whole. And I really like your idea of linking Grace-Rose-Martha, and how the two 'unsuitable' choices were both doctors. Great point, and one that I hadn't realized at all.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

She really did have a comparatively weakly written arc which... bad form, RTD. I can understand why writing the unrequited love story isn't as much fun as writing the giddy joy of the Doctor and Rose, but that's all the more reason to get it right.

And I really like your idea of linking Grace-Rose-Martha, and how the two 'unsuitable' choices were both doctors. Great point, and one that I hadn't realized at all.

And Grace listened to the opera. There's something in that, that it's the most deceptively unimportant person who ends up being the most important to the Doctor. Because Grace and Martha are (planning, in Martha's case) to be healers -- Rose had the ability, but no real way to use it to any great effect. The Doctor gave her that chance to... have a meaningful life.

[raveninthewind.livejournal.com]

I try not to spend too much time disliking a main character, so I don't really dwell on whether I like either Rose or Martha that much. I liked them both, for different reasons. But..I guess, if I had to say which one I have more in common with and empathize with, it's Martha.

As the stand-in for the audience's POV, having flawed companions is a good idea. I don't look at the companions as there for the Doctor's benefit, although objectively/traditionally they are. I think of them as there for my benefit, or their own, if I am in sympathy with the character in a certain scene. So it isn't a relevant question to me (although obviously it is to other people) whether Martha was needed as a contrast. I see that the Doctor is learning all the time from his companions, but his journey is only as important as theirs is, so in that sense, Martha, Sarah, Jack, Mickey, and Rose all had their own truths to learn from him and their adventures. To me, that's exactly as interesting as his own character growth. If it was just the Doctor traveling and doing his TIme Lord thing, the story would feel sterile and not as real.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I try not to spend too much time disliking a main character, so I don't really dwell on whether I like either Rose or Martha that much. I liked them both, for different reasons. But..I guess, if I had to say which one I have more in common with and empathize with, it's Martha.

Oh, yeah, it's frustrating to dislike a main character. I think the last time I really did that was... Angel, where I didn't fall for the lead until the end of the fourth season. Made watching those first four seasons a bit of an odd experience, as I cared much more about the people around him than I did the lead character (I had moments of disliking Sam on SG-1, but they were fairly brief in duration and I generally liked her -- and while Martha has bugged me from time to time, I've never genuinely disliked her).

I can understand Martha's motivations (once they'd been given enough clarity) and I certainly sympathize with her emotional plight. But I never really connected with her the way I did with Rose.

If it was just the Doctor traveling and doing his Time Lord thing, the story would feel sterile and not as real.

That is so true.

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

In the end, I think the real problem with Martha is that they only had a six-episode story to tell with her (Smith & Jones through Gridlock and Utopia through Last of the Time Lords). She would have worked better if she hadn't stayed the whole season.

Oh, oh, brilliant - there we go. Just poor planning on TPTBs' parts I guess; I don't think they realized how tedious her arc would be and how unnecessary it was to drag it out and emphasize it the whole season. As you said, she had a specific purpose to serve, and she had her own arc, but there wasn't enough investment in her as a character to sustain her presence the whole time (nor was Freema able to add to the writing). At least we should see something completely different with her in the future though, and she should be much more palatable in small doses, with tight arcs. I'd be surprised if she doesn't get more development in three eps of Torchwood than she had all season in Who *sporfle*

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

how unnecessary it was to drag it out and emphasize it the whole season.

Nothing about Martha-as-introduced makes me believe it would take her so long to figure out that this guy isn't going to feel for her the way she feels for him. She's smart and pretty and seems to have plenty of self-confidence when we meet her. Yet, one slightly disparaging comment from a grieving Ten and her self-confidence begins to crumble. It took all season for her to regain it. That doesn't make a bit of sense.

[jedi_of_urth]

There's a lot of really good point here. I hadn't really considered Martha as the ramp down companion, but in that sense I can see the purpose her crush served to the overall story (aside from making it clear that Rose was different).

In fact, every time that the Doctor took on someone else, it was made clear that the Doctor and Rose were a unit and other folk were nice but not necessary

Yeah, pretty much every time there was a third person on board it was the Doctor and Rose, and one more. Whether they were conspiring for her to show Adam the way of things or their dance around in front of Jack or their insolur world not including Mickey, it was *them* and their companion. And then Jack comes back in season three, and suddenly he's the Doctor's companion at least equal to Martha if not closer, it certainly wasn't two and Jack; if anything it was two and Martha (or three and Martha since Rose was so *there* in that story).

made very clear when he calls her over to help him with the wiring and takes her out of the 'active fighter' count

I just love how lady-programmer picks up onto that instantly. The Doctor plucks Rose out of their army because he will not let her go into danger like that and just like that it's clear that she isn't fighting. Nothing for Jack (companion) and Lynda (almost companion), just Rose because she's different from everyone else.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

There's a lot of really good point here. I hadn't really considered Martha as the ramp down companion, but in that sense I can see the purpose her crush served to the overall story (aside from making it clear that Rose was different).

*nods*

RTD was, I think, pretty clear in what he wanted to portray (I judge based on the DW Confidentials), but they just didn't give Martha enough depth to make it an enjoyable story to watch. The infatuation didn't have enough meat to it and we were never given a good enough reason why felt the way she did.

And then Jack comes back in season three, and suddenly he's the Doctor's companion at least equal to Martha if not closer, it certainly wasn't two and Jack; if anything it was two and Martha (or three and Martha since Rose was so *there* in that story).

Indeed. It was very clear that Martha and the Doctor were not the pair that Rose and the Doctor had been.

[anoel.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say Rose is the best person for the Doctor. But she did fit very well with him. And I would disagree that Martha didn't like him, I think she did but she recognized he had flaws. I do wish Martha had a stronger storyline and I'm definitely NOT a fan of the unrequited love stuff but she was so awesome that it made up for it. I just wish she had gotten a chance to be him when he wasn't so sad about Rose which is just bad timing. I don't think they clicked as well though so a different timing wouldn't necessary change that.

I don't see Rose as the be all, end all of specialness as right after a person *dies* to you, of course you're going to feel horrible about it and mention them a lot. Not to minimize their relationship but that's how I see it. And as I disagree with the romantic/sexual implications as much that colors my view definitely.

[clevermonikerr.livejournal.com]

I just wish she had gotten a chance to be him when he wasn't so sad about Rose

Yeah, I agree. There is no way to compete with a ghost, to compete with someone's memory of someone that they lost, and it sucks for Martha. She's trying to compete with a dead girl, and no matter how awesome Martha can be at times, it's just not something that can be done heathily.

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

So.....now what? We watch Doctor Who for a decade thinking how unique Rose was? Oh, here's a new companion...he loved Rose more. Wait this one's interesting....nope, loved Rose more. This one doesn't want to shag him...good thing, cuz he loved Rose more.

And, as you point out, Rose brought out some pretty nasty qualities in the Doctor.

Which leaves us with two possibilities: One, that Rose pretty much needed to be the end of Doctor Who, because she ruined the premise of the series. Or two, that Rose is not The One and Only -- she is One of Many -- one who was affected intensely by the Doctor and who affected him in turn, but who will ultimately be One of Many.

If you look at Rose's tenure, you see that her character is carefully constructed to illustrate how desperate the Doctor is now that he's "the last" -- and that's really what her story is about. But the Doctor's story goes on, and it's a process of discovering how to live with that. Martha is crucial in that process, forcing him to face the fact that he is living in the past, with Gallifrey AND Rose. And Martha's story isn't done -- the magnitude of her accomplishment and the effect she's had on the Doctor hasn't played itself out yet. And then there's Donna, whose "Get over yourself" attitude will no doubt slap the Rose emo around quite a bit.

If not, there really isn't any point watching.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It is actually allowable for people to get different things out of a television show. Just because, for me, Rose Tyler is the love of the Doctor's life, doesn't mean that a) she has to be for you or b) that believing that the Doctor had and lost the love of his life will suck the joy of the show for me. Which, incidentally, it hasn't. I actually really enjoyed S3 (some episodes more than others, but on the balance, quite a lot).

You may not feel that there's any point in watching a show where the main character had a 'love of his life', but I (quite obviously) feel differently. I also quite enjoyed the Bourne movies, where Jason fell in love with Marie in the first movie, lost her and then (quite pointedly) did not fall in love with Nicky in the third, despite there being a clear similarity in the situations involved.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

Martha's character arc may have theoretically been intended to serve a long-term narrative purpose, but as executed it fell totally flat on its face. I think the fault is mostly that of TPTB. The writers got very lazy with the writing of their main characters in Series 3. Whether this is because they were used to having two leads who just completely inhabited their characters, I don't know. But as I've noted elsewhere, you can't severely underwrite a role unless the actor's capable of essentially writing it for themselves in their head (e.g., David Tennant, Billie Piper), or is largely playing him or herself (e.g., John Barrowman). If they wanted to allow the writers to sketch their characters in shorthand, then TPTB needed to cast someone with more experience/confidence. Knowing that they had cast a newbie, they should've leaned on the writers to be very specific and very thorough about what they wanted out of Martha.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Martha's character arc may have theoretically been intended to serve a long-term narrative purpose, but as executed it fell totally flat on its face.

Indeed. I can see what she was supposed to do (also basing that on what RTD has said about her character over the course of the series, which has been rather consistent), but the part was definitely under-written.

I think the fault is mostly that of TPTB. The writers got very lazy with the writing of their main characters in Series 3. Whether this is because they were used to having two leads who just completely inhabited their characters, I don't know. But as I've noted elsewhere, you can't severely underwrite a role unless the actor's capable of essentially writing it for themselves in their head (e.g., David Tennant, Billie Piper), or is largely playing him or herself (e.g., John Barrowman). If they wanted to allow the writers to sketch their characters in shorthand, then TPTB needed to cast someone with more experience/confidence. Knowing that they had cast a newbie, they should've leaned on the writers to be very specific and very thorough about what they wanted out of Martha.

Yeah, very true. Freema was enthusiastic enough, but she doesn't yet have that ability to give herself a backstory and motivations, so if the writers don't do it for her, all we've got is... well, what we ended up getting -- something of a flat character.

[llywela13.livejournal.com]

Posting binge. Hadn't realised how much I missed your occasional posts to make me think more deeply about DW than I tend to.

I found while watching season three that I enjoyed the Doctor's arc with Martha far more than hers with him. She went around in circles, which isn't so much fun to watch. But his emotional arc was far more complex.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I found while watching season three that I enjoyed the Doctor's arc with Martha far more than hers with him. She went around in circles, which isn't so much fun to watch. But his emotional arc was far more complex.

It really was. That's part of what makes me so sad about the series, because the Doctor's arc was still there and good, so why did they fall down so hard on Martha's? It causes disappointment in the writers.

[librarianstales.livejournal.com]

Well thought out essay. I'm not sure if I have anything of note to add now, but I would like to think it over. Maybe if I have something worthy of commenting I will added it later.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thanks. And if you have anything to add later, I'd love to read it.

[thehornedgod.livejournal.com]

In a lot of ways, Martha is a 'better' person. Higher class (which matters to some people). More education.

It woes me that people (and I'm not saying you) consider those to be ways in which Martha is a 'better' person. A better identification figure for them, a better stand-in for their own fantasies, certainly. A better person, never.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, it does suck that those are considered to be things that make someone 'better', but I've seen too many people bash Rose for being a 'chav' and 'stupid' (because, of course, lack of education and lack of intelligence are the same thing. *rolls eyes*) not to know that it matters a hell of a lot to some people. For some, Martha training to be a doctor and never living in an estate does make her a better person than Rose.

[lilacfree.livejournal.com]

I'm going to be bad and not read all the other comments to see if someone has already said this. :)

Grace and Martha didn't both have to be doctors. The point, to me, is that they clearly had productive lives of their own, and plans that were important to them personally and worthy in general, that did not include madcap wanderings through time and space. It takes a lot of dedication to become a doctor, and they would have thrown away a lot of work to follow the Doctor.

I felt this way about Madame de Pompadour as well. She might have needed the Doctor to save her from being killed, but she didn't need him to have her full and fantastic life. The Doctor changed Rose. She became a bigger and better person for knowing him. Martha was already in the life-saving business.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

The point, to me, is that they clearly had productive lives of their own, and plans that were important to them personally and worthy in general, that did not include madcap wanderings through time and space.

Not having read or heard any of the Eighth Doctor materials beyond the TV movie, I can't really draw any conclusions about Grace's long-term state of mind. However, for Martha, who was ostensibly training to be a doctor, what we saw wasn't that she held her plans or academic activities as any particular priority. She did throw away a lot of work to follow the Doctor.

I've noted elsewhere that one would think if Martha were a real student, she'd have been thrilled over the opportunity for essentially infinite study time, not to mention the prospect of either the TARDIS itself having a kickass library, or her being able to access them via her travels with the Doctor. Or how about asking to meet Hippocrates? Instead, her reaction to travelling back in time is 'hey, let's record a lost Shakespeare play so we can go make some serious dosh!' Martha's status as a doctor-to-be seemed to be a convenient shortcut for the writers to indicate how very different her background was from Rose's without having to elaborate. They didn't actually do a whole heck of a lot with it.

MdP most certainly had a full and interesting life sans Doctor, but then again you're talking about someone who only knew the Doctor in fits and spurts, and whom the Doctor knew for less than a day's time. Not really comparing apples to apples here.

Did travelling with the Doctor have more of a bootstrap effect on Rose that it did/could have for Martha? Yes. But that's largely attributable to Rose's desire for growth and self-expansion. Martha, for most of the series, didn't seem to view her trip as anything other than an interesting vacation with a hot guy that didn't cost her real-world time away from home.

[fantasyjax.livejournal.com]

Woah, there. "Rose and everyone else"?

See, that's exactly what gives your ship a bad rep, this lumping of "Special!Perfect!Rose" vs. "Everyone else", which inevitably leads to a disregard towards "everyone else", and look, there's Martha, conveniently not-Rose. So that, you know, RTD might have been aiming to use her to show us how special Doctor/Rose was, but that is not a good thing. You point it out yourself. It's all good and nice to write the Special One True Love if you're doing it in your own little Sue-fic; it's not when you're doing it for a television show with an audience of millions. Some of them are just bound to dislike your Special One, and getting repeatedly hit over the head with her specialness, at the expense of a character they like better, just singles out how sloppy a writer you are.

Dw does make a distinction between Rose and other companions, and that's a bad thing. Because it doesn't make the distinction shown, it tells us about it. The Doctor doesn't really act any different towards Rose - you watch any episode of Four with Sarah Jane, Three with Jo or Seven with Ace, it's clear as daylight - and yet we're constantly told that Rose is Special. We're placed in a really awkward place where we're pretty much told, this is the True Love, you have to approve of her, you have to love her, and you have to give up any hope of seeing - or of having seen - anyone else in that position.

Now, being a minority of sorts, a student and "higher class", and being uninterested in romantic adventures with David Tennant, Martha served as much better identification for me than Rose. I rather like the idea that you don't have to be uneducated but plucky and true-hearted to be a hero and loved as a hero. But then I'm told, oh no, not you, only the Mythological Blonde. All those other characters whom I cared for more, for whatever reason - Sarah Jane, Romana, Ace - can only hope to get lumped as "everyone else". Future companions? Don't get invested, can't measure up. See what I'm getting at with the sloppy writing angle? It's a very effective job done of alienating any of your audience who happen to not see Rose Tyler as the end-all of Who.

So basically, yes, your argument is correct, but that doesn't reflect badly on the writing of Martha - it reflects badly on the writing of Rose.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

"Rose and everyone else," versus "Martha and everyone else," what's the difference? There are just as many Martha fans who like to see her as the ne plus ultra of companions, and insist that she's the most awesomest of awesome ever, regardless of how this assertion is or isn't backed up in text.

I don't think making a sharp breaking point between Rose and the classic series companions was avoidable, given how radically different the portrayal of the Doctor/Companion relationship was from how they'd previously been shown. Some of it is probably attributable directly to the Doctor's state of mind when he met Rose, versus anything inherent in Rose herself. The Time War had changed him radically and irrevocably.

Do I think the writers did Martha a disservice by essentially using her as a case study of 'No, not every regular companion from now on is going to be a romantic interest for the Doctor'? Absolutely. I was really, really looking forward to having a Liz Shaw (or even Zoe) type as the new companion based on the way Martha was being talked about before the series started. What they promised and what they delivered were two radically different things. I don't think Martha had to be in wub with the Doctor to have done the things she did: in fact, I think the unrequited love angle diminished her character significantly. And I think the whole whiny-teenager manner in which the unrequited love story was played is what turned a whole lot of people off to the character.

[biichan.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but you just aren't getting it. This argument of Rose Vs Everyone Else Who Will Never Be As Good As Her And The Doctor Will Never Care About Them As Much fucks over every other companion on the show and that is why people--Classic Series fen especially, even more than Martha fen--are pissed off at you.

I mean seriously. And they have every right to be because this argument of yours manages to demean ninety percent of the show. And I've been biting my tongue since Who Daily started linking you because I know you aren't completely batshit--I've read some of the things you've written for other fandoms and even when I haven't agreed with them, you weren't offensive. (Hell, there's an essay on Buffy Summers of yours I really like.) But I can't do that anymore.

This is not about Martha. By making it All About Rose you are short-changing every other companion on the show and every Doctor that isn't Nine or Ten. And that's just wrong.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

If you believe that romantic love is the only thing that matters, perhaps. If you believe that having a 'one true love' means that you never care about anyone else every again, perhaps.

I don't believe either of those things. The Doctor can have been 'in love' with Rose and that doesn't change his adoration of his granddaughter or his affection for Sarah Jane, Liz, Jo, Ace, etc.

The Doctor is capable of caring about many people, in many ways. And just because I believe that Rose is the only character that he was 'in love' with, does not mean that I believe she is the only character that he loved.

[nostariel]

*looks around*

So, is it time to beak out the cat macros yet?

(I really need one about Doctor Who being Srs Bizns, but I have a couple others that'll do in a pinch)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Ha!

Yeah, the post really kinda exploded. Maybe if I'd known, I either wouldn't have written it or flocked it, but, hey -- who doesn't love 100+ comments on their second day back from a brief fandom vacation? I mean, it really reminds me of what... honestly, it reminds me of what I try to avoid about fandom, but today I'm mostly finding it all amusing.

The thing that makes me sad is that Martha had the potential to be a really fantastic character, but was underwritten terribly and given the huge burden of her unrequited love for the Doctor as her main emotional arc (which could have been pulled off if she's either had a shorter arc or more depth to the other parts of her arc). I can see what they wanted the character to be, but the writing wasn't there. The quantum leap that Martha makes from 'attracted' to 'blindly faithful of' in Gridlock still doesn't make much sense to me.

[purplemonster77.livejournal.com]

Hehe. I love fandom. Wank away, my friends. Wank away. No day is complete without someone attacking Rose/Martha/David Tennant/Classic fans/New fans/RTD/That Random Extra In That Episode ...

*Pats fandom on the head fondly*

I quite liked your essay, by the way. Other than that, I have nothing to add except a big grin.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hee. Thank you.

Fandom is just a whole big bag of special, isn't it?

[jesidres.livejournal.com]

I think that was a very well thought out essay.

But reading the comments, I think you can call "Bingo". I'm sorry you've had to deal with some people completely misunderstanding or not even READING your points.

I leave you with a silly icon to alleviate the serious business around here.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

And, yeah, I think that all of the traditional arguments against Doctor/Rose have been covered.

I leave you with a silly icon to alleviate the serious business around here.

Hee! Thank you for that.

[threerings.livejournal.com]

Alright, I've lost the will to wade through all the comments. But I find it incredibly interesting that the argument is essentially thus:

"I think RTD did X because he wanted Y."

"You're right, but I hate RTD and I think he's doing Doctor Who wrong and if you agree with the canon RTD has presented, you're doing Doctor Who wrong, too."

"But...say for the sake of argument, we accept the actual show as canon.."

"No, WRONG. I hate RTD."

*boggle*

Oh, and I think it was a very interesting essay and you've brought up some good points that I'll be musing on. I'm interested to see where the show is going with all of this.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that about sums the whole thing up.

Oh, and I think it was a very interesting essay and you've brought up some good points that I'll be musing on. I'm interested to see where the show is going with all of this.

Thanks -- so am I.

The Holding Pattern

[(Anonymous)]

I guess for me the 'holding pattern' with Rose felt natural because at that point I was comfortable with where their relationship was at. And from that point, nothing really changed until the 'storm' came around (AoG/Doomsday).

With Martha, I was very uncomfortable with where they were at when the 'holding pattern' took place, which is unsurprising because unrequited love is known to be quite awkward at times. What biffed me was that her emotional 'holding pattern' lasted throughout the entire series with few breaks in between until she finally 'gets it' in LotTL. I'd hoped for more development, but like some poster said, maybe we'll see development when she returns.

To me, DW's main underlying theme is change and this has been the most difficult one yet. They were askin' for it though when they decided to introduce romantic subtext '^^.
-Tierra

Re: The Holding Pattern

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I'd hoped for more development, but like some poster said, maybe we'll see development when she returns.

Yeah -- I'm really hoping for that, too. I did really enjoy her last scene with the Doctor and I hope she carries that strength of character over into Torchwood and when she comes back on Who.

To me, DW's main underlying theme is change and this has been the most difficult one yet. They were askin' for it though when they decided to introduce romantic subtext '^^.

Oh, yes. There are few things that cause more conflict... at least in fandoms.

[avendya.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, what?

Your point seems to rest on Rose being the Doctor's One and Only True Love. Certainly, there's textual evidence that both Nine and Ten love Rose. One can argue if it's romantic or not.

You can argue that Rose is Ten's True Love. (I will disagree, but that's not the point.) However, Rose is not The Doctor's True Love - not all of him. All relationships the Doctor has with humans are, by definition, transitory. How well would Rose do with One or Six? Presenting her as the epitome of all companions downgrades everything else.

Two loved Jaime. Four loved Romana and Sarah Jane. Five loved Turlough. Seven loved Ace. Eight loved Fitz and Charley. (All of these may or may not be romantic. That's up to interpretation.)

Rose's arc is not better because it's romantic(ish) in nature. There is much more to a companion - and to life - than their romantic love. Martha's lack of romantic love from the Doctor doesn't make her any less Special than Rose.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Your point seems to rest on Rose being the Doctor's One and Only True Love. Certainly, there's textual evidence that both Nine and Ten love Rose. One can argue if it's romantic or not.

My point about what I believe to be RTD's intentions with Martha's arc?

I hate to be rude, but did you actually read my post? I'll quote from it, since you seem to have skipped everything that wasn't the title.

But... as the show makes very, very clear -- Rose isn't special in the ultimate 'best person ever' way. She's special in the 'best person for this one specific character/relationship' way.

At no time do I attempt to argue that Rose is the better person because the Doctor loves her. Mostly because I don't believe that and partly because it's irrelevant to the question at hand, which was what I believed to be RTD's intentions with Martha's arc and whether or not Martha was necessary to accomplish the goals that RTD appears to have.

All relationships the Doctor has with humans are, by definition, transitory.

All relationships that humans have with humans are, by definition, transitory. All the relationships that the Doctor had with other Time Lords were transitory (though a large part of that was because he hated his people and spent as much time away from home as possible!).

Everything ends. Mortality isn't a special trait that only humans have. The Doctor doesn't live forever -- even he will die someday. Should someone dying from cancer be barred from falling in love with a healthy person? Sometimes, something is all the more precious because it is transitory. As the Doctor said, some people live more in twenty years than others do in eighty (paraphrased).

[tsukara.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. I thought this was a particularly well-thought-out analysation of the character arcs RTD was using with the two (or, rather, three, I suppose, with Grace) characters. I think you had some excellent and valid points.

Don't let the detractors get you down. :)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you enjoyed it. The majority of the actual comments got frustrating, but not the majority of the people and that's something I'm glad of.

[(Anonymous)]

....and now a perfectly good essay gets called "wank baiting" and shows up on fandom_wank (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1111557.html).

Funny, it seems all the people who got shot down here decided to try and mock elsewhere, where there isn't anyone to point out the nice big holes in their wankery.

Yeah, funny all the really bizarre comments here don't get posted, because OOPS! They're the ones trying to mock you on F_W! (They even turned off the anonymous posting for fear of having their arses exposed).

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, the news doesn't exactly shock me (200+ comments, mostly of people being pissed off at each other, doesn't scream 'anti-wank').

I was letting myself get so frustrated by the end that I probably am wanky in (at least) my thread with avendya -- being angry does so little for the rational reasoning skills. I was so frustrated at feeling like I was making the same points over and over (points that felt completely irrelevant to the essay I'd written about RTD's intentions with Martha's arc) that I started taking potshots at their logic and spelling, which just feels kind of petty in retrospect.

[04nbod.livejournal.com]

butterfly and principa_coh are made of ultimate win- that is all :D

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Didn't say this at the time (I was burned out on replying to any comments to this post), but thank you.

[ninamazing.livejournal.com]

Totally agree. I love your posts. I'm sorry this got wanked. (!!)

I think Martha should DEFINITELY have been better written -- but if their purpose was really to do what you outline here, then maybe they knew what they were doing. I'm not sure how much credit I should give the writers, though. :P

Martha was someone who liked the life he offered, thought he was attractive, but didn't seem to know or like him very much as a person.

That's interesting! I think Martha didn't really KNOW him or the life he offered, but she put him up on a pedestal anyway. I'm sure Martha subconsciously ignored a lot of things because she had that instant, kind of hard-to-understand head-over-heels crush on him. There was definitely something strange about Martha's attraction, but I think she liked him as a person, definitely.

I love the point, too, about how the Doctor can't be with a doctor. ;) Rose challenged him because she was so very different. And I LOVED that they chose to make her less educated and less high-class, because it proves that you don't need a degree or a spaceship to be smart and amazing.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Totally agree. I love your posts. I'm sorry this got wanked. (!!)

Thanks. It's a bit of an odd feeling, being f_w'd, as that's never happened to me before (at least, not that I've been notified about, as I was with this one), but considering the factors, I'm not surprised.

I think Martha should DEFINITELY have been better written -- but if their purpose was really to do what you outline here, then maybe they knew what they were doing. I'm not sure how much credit I should give the writers, though. :P

I think the writers should get credit for their intentions, but not so much for execution (which was also the problem with some of the stuff in LotTL that I had issue with -- it wasn't the basic idea that was so bad, but the execution could have been better).

That's interesting! I think Martha didn't really KNOW him or the life he offered, but she put him up on a pedestal anyway. I'm sure Martha subconsciously ignored a lot of things because she had that instant, kind of hard-to-understand head-over-heels crush on him. There was definitely something strange about Martha's attraction, but I think she liked him as a person, definitely.

Again, it's hard to explain vibes, but... she agrees with Latimer's assessment of the Doctor in Family of Blood and while that's what the Doctor is, it isn't who he is, not all of him.

Because he's ancient and forever... but he also cuts himself shaving. He's the fire in the heart of the sun... and also a huge dork who fanboys Shakespeare and wants to go see Elvis recording.

It's the dorky, silly parts of the Doctor that Martha didn't seem to like, I guess. Rose liked those parts of him; they amused her. I just miss that, I think. Her amusement in the face of his geekiness.

[blackcat-1.livejournal.com]

Hello! Not visited your lj in quite a while, as you have not been posting much DW stuff. I drop in and ... well, what can I say? Other than I'm sorry that there are a number of people out there who, just because they don't agree with your thoughtful, well-structured and considered essays, they throw all of their toys out of the pram and write some quite frankly, rude and unjust comments. I'd also like to commend you for the polite way you always reply to their aggressive comments. I certainly wouldn't bother. I hope this experience won't put you off posting in future. If people don't agree with your posts, then they should go elswhere. No one forces them to read your lj. We're discussing a TV programme, for Heaven's sake. It's hardly life or death...

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thank you kindly for the comment.

People really did react in an... interesting way to my entry. I wasn't expecting that firestorm, particularly as I made it clear I was trying to discuss what I believe RTD was trying to show, not what I personally believed should have happened. I probably would not have done Martha the way that RTD did. But he made the choices he made and I wanted to work through why, which you'd think would be a topic people could discuss without gratuitous insults, creating strawmen to topple over, or putting words into my mouth.

[violet-lane.livejournal.com]

Hi! My name's Diana and I'm new to Who Fandom and a big Rose lover. I found your LJ through SPDN and just wanted to say WORD. I love the way you write! Is it allright if I friend you? =D

In regards to your meta, I agree. I'm trying to get into Martha's character, but I feel so disconnected from her. I wish the writers would've given us just a few lines to show who Martha was, instead of just her reacting all the time. =(

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It's nice to meet you! By an amusing coincidence, my name is also Diana.

Glad that you enjoyed the essay. It seemed to stir people up a bit!

There was a lot of potential in Martha's character that they never used. Hopefully, they'll have a chance to explore her beyond her unrequited love.