Under the heading of "Why do I ever read outside my flist?":

[butterfly]

One thing that I would have hoped we'd have all learned from Torchwood is that adding sex to things does not actually mean that the maturity level has risen.

The presence of sex or sexual vibes doesn't mean that the people involved are automatically more grown-up. Sex is not a reliable gauge of maturity. I was reading porn when I was thirteen and writing it at sixteen (I'm twenty-four now, though, oh fandom police). Sexual thoughts are not a reliable measure of a person's maturity level. Having a high proportion of the stories in a fandom/pairing flat-out porn is generally not a sign of how mature and grown-up the pairing/fandom is. Please stop waving your porn in my face and telling me that it means your pairing is more mature. More sex-based is not the same as more mature.

Please do not take this as an indication that I dislike explicit sex in stories. I would say that the vast majority of the fic that I read has some in it. I'm very fond of it, especially when it's in-character and flows from the story. But more sexual does not equal more grown-up. And sex is not the only point of a relationship (speaking as someone currently in a fulfilling relationship that contains absolutely no sex at all -- they exist.).

Sorry, folks. Just felt the need to vent a bit. And, as the subject line indicates, my annoyance is based on things I've read outside my flist. It's just one of those camel-straw-back situations. I'm going to go read some fic now (it'll most likely have sex in it). My next post will probably be about Human Nature (I'm looking forward to the episode so much, probably too much, I may be overselling it to myself... but it looks so great in the trailers!).

Comments

[bloodypoetry.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. In fact, none of the fic that I have written has anything in that could be considered porn at all. I love the read it, and I gobble it up, but write it? Personal hang up I am sorta in the process of working on. Though, my fics do have very 'mature' content (lots of gore).

And I usually use the term 'mature' in the context of rating. Is this what the rant was about? Using mature to label fics that have sex, or people actually saying that someone's fic wasn't 'mature' enough because it didn't have sex?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Nah, it wasn't about ratings. It was about someone saying that because their pairing has mostly porn-y fics, that means that it's a more adult and mature pairing than another.

It's just... irritating to me to read things like that. Sex and maturity aren't linked that way. If anything, a sex-based fandom just points out how shallow the pairing is, so it shouldn't bother me at all, but I seemed to be a bit of a mood. It just... annoys me when people say things that aren't supported by any evidence. I'll get over it.

[thawrecka]

I really agree. Actually, I've had a similar rant in the works for days that I may or may not post.

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

Er, yeah. There is not enough word in the world. I can't believe it even has to be said, but sex and maturity do not go together as a matter of fact. Your average high school and college prove that pretty definitively.

[librarianstales.livejournal.com]

I totally agree.

My pet peeve in fandom is that I see a lot of sex=love in fanfic. Sex can be a way of expressing love, yes, but love can be express in other ways. You can have sex with someone you don't love.

I like reading Buffy/Spike now and again but I don't think they were really in love. I don't think they were right for each other. I don't like the fics that are written with the beliefs that they were in love and right. I like fics that explore why two people so wrong for each other ended up going about like they did. It may not be right, but it is complex and explores another aspect of being human.

[voldything.livejournal.com]

Yes! I couldn't agree more with you.

[spiletta42.livejournal.com]

*applauds*

I absolutely agree. I recently visited a board that I'd avoided for a while, because I have new fic in the fandom. I ended up not posting it, because first I was silly enough to roam around the board a bit. They were never the most mature or sensible lot, so I shouldn't be surprised, but that they can agree with statements like, "Only babies write PG-13 fic," and "Everybody knows that monogamous relationships will be extinct by then," still baffles me. (Also, anyone who doesn't read slash pr0n is a bigot, concrit is teh meen, and disagreeing with characterization in fic is violating the writer's free speech.) Anyway, I decided my plotty humor fic would be lost on them, since nobody took off their pants, and went on my way.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

*snickers* No, sex does not equal maturity. It's fun and it's fantastic - but it's not necessarily "mature."

And sex is not the only point of a relationship

I got into a discussion with an SG-1 bud not too long ago about the perceived notion that emotional intimacy can only be expressed through sex. Obviously it *can* be expressed through sex. But a lot of time you'll see that in fic - we want the characters to be more emotionally intimate/closer than they are onscreen, and so the quickest way to do that is to throw them into bed together. Of course, sometimes it's just about the porn. :D

[bloodypoetry.livejournal.com]

That's what I thought, and yes, I totally, 100% agree. Porny fic does not equal more adult and mature.

[imadra-blue.livejournal.com]

I'm just going to echo the agreement thing here. I find it highly overrated, and when I look back at any sexual scenes I've written, I inevitably am dissatisfied with it. I think my more mature fics tends to be gen or non pairing riented, in any case. This is a personal experience, of course, but it just goes to show. Sex is not as thought-provoking as some would have you believe. In fact, the idea that sex is thought-provoking makes me snicker a little. XD

[jic]

Why DO you ever read outside your flist?

Also, *giant hugs*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Porny fic does not equal more adult and mature.

Yep. That's it exactly.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It really just gets frustrating to see that used as an argument. I mean, I am all for porn. Porn for the win, yo. But a fic with sex is not automatically more mature/grown-up than one without.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I know! I'm baffled at the number of people who apparently do not understand that basic fact.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

My pet peeve in fandom is that I see a lot of sex=love in fanfic. Sex can be a way of expressing love, yes, but love can be express in other ways. You can have sex with someone you don't love.

Another good point, yes. Sex and love aren't the same thing! A couple can have a deep and life-long connection without ever having sex. And a pair of people can have utterly meaningless sex without having any emotions involved. And then there's everything in between.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thanks. It's just so frustrating to see people arguing that more porn = higher maturity level.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

And, yeah, that's just the sort of attitude that I find so frustrating.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Indeed! Writing about sex (and having it) can be fun and can be meaningful, but the existence of sex in a relationship or fic doesn't make it more grown-up.

I got into a discussion with an SG-1 bud not too long ago about the perceived notion that emotional intimacy can only be expressed through sex. Obviously it *can* be expressed through sex. But a lot of time you'll see that in fic - we want the characters to be more emotionally intimate/closer than they are onscreen, and so the quickest way to do that is to throw them into bed together. Of course, sometimes it's just about the porn.

I've talked about just this point with my roommate! Sex is often used as a shortcut for emotional intimacy, which I go along with for the most part, but it can be just as effective not to use sex, if you know what you're doing.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Exactly! In re-reading my own fic, I find the bits with sex to be much less involving than many other things.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Because I'm a wack-job, clearly.

*grins*