Rape on Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Oct. 25th, 2003 01:17 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
butterflyWhich started as a response to a comment on my Faith thread and then got huge on me. Also, it starts out about rape and somehow actually becomes an indirect defense of the way Spike and Buffy's relationship was portrayed in S7. Have no clue how that happened. It's odd.
There have been a lot of almost-rapes on Buffy - never a literal rape that actually succeeded, but a lot of attempts and a lot of things that were similiar and could be used as a parallel to rape. First off, I want to be clear on my definitions. When I say rape, I mean literal rape - forced sex.
I mean, in a way, the siring of every vampire is a rape. There's penetration and there's destruction and pain. It's a rape of the soul.
But the first actual attempt at addressing the topic is in The Pack. When Buffy drags Xander in ("He tried his hand at felony sexual assault."), Willow is immediately horrified at the idea that 'the hyena' in Xander might have raped Buffy. Buffy shrugs it off, similiar to how she moves past Spike's attempt, I think, though it certainly isn't an exact comparison. Both situations are hopelessly complicated. And in both cases, it was the fact that they weren't the monster who'd done the rape that let her move past it. It took her longer with Spike, because she'd known him as the monster for longer. But the situations are similar enough for comparison. I can understand both why he'd say he didn't remember and why they wouldn't tell him - it's not something that they want to think of Xander being capable of. Ever. Therefore, it isn't and should be pushed away. Do I think Xander capable of rape? Well, certainly not after The Pack, which brought home to him that he could be as dangerous to the people he loves as his dad was. He's given the opportunity to prove this in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered when he turns down a smitten Buffy because it wouldn't really be her. She wouldn't really want it, so he isn't willing to let her.
The second attempted rape was in Go Fish, where the coach threatens to have the entire monsterfied swim team gang-rape Buffy. And in turn, he almost certainly got what he threatened to her, which I place firmly in the realm of poetic justice. But those were mutated kids and monsters. Buffy probably chalked that up to another icky fight. It was a monster attack. Scary but something she can handle.
The next explicit rape threat is from Faith, who holds Xander down and switches to trying to kill him half-way through. Before the rape/murder attempt happened, he was a big cheerleader in trying to help Faith. He's pretty quiet on the subject of helping her after that, as I recall. Before that, he really was into her. After, not so much. In fact, he pretty much avoided her. Was there any real Faith/Xander interaction in Season Seven? I can't think of any. Yeah, he wouldn't say anything. In some ways, he's very stereotypical guy-like. But his silence speaks volumes. When they speak of helping Faith in a late-season episode, he's facing away from the rest of the group. I don't think that he got over it at all. He got past it, but he didn't get over it. After all, when Buffy went after Faith, he was only concerned about the state of Buffy's soul, not about Faith getting hurt. I may be wrong about some of these things - as someone's borrowed my S7 tapes, so I don't have them on hand. But yeah, again that was a rape attempt - she didn't succeed. And you know, I think that was the first time that I ever applauded the appearance of Angel. He saved my guy.
Dracula, who definitely screwed with our guys' minds. Violation, yes, but no literal rape. Though Giles got close, being felt up by the three whatevers (were they sisters?). Xander was the closest to what I would consider a victim (well, I do consider him a victim of Dracula), as his mind was definitely violated and twisted - akin to what Glory and Willow later do to Tara. Foreshadowing?
While we're talking about minds, we could mention about the insertion of Dawn into everyone's memories - a type of violation as well. One that got quite a few people angry at the time.
Next rape threat - Season Six, Bargaining Part 2, the monster who says that his boys have 'parts that tear up little girls'. And he gets axed by the lesbian. Her first axing. Good for her.
Then comes the mind-wipe, which does lend an unseemly air to the Willow/Tara interactions, as Tara no longer can provide informed consent. Once Tara does get informed, she gets away from Wills, which I do also commend her for. But I also don't blame her for going back. She didn't say it was all forgiven and she didn't say that it was magically healed. She said she wanted to forget about the tough stuff and get back to the good stuff. Type of woman Tara was? She would have gotten back to the talking eventually, I think. But she loved Willow too much to stay away. Her choice. Informed consent.
Then there's Spike. Wow. The Spike issue is a big one. But Buffy didn't rape Spike. What she did wasn't anywhere near rape, though it was also aeons away from healthy. It's not rape if it's wanted and Buffy never forced sex on Spike. She withheld tenderness and caring, but she never pretended that that was on the menu. She informed him ("This isn't real, but I just wanna feel..."). He consented. And he chose to believe that she loved him when she'd told him she didn't. And when she beat him up (which was horrible for her to do), he encouraged her ("Put it on me!") because he thought it would tie her to him. No, she didn't rape him. The one time that came close (Gone), she leaves when he tells her to. Well, she does cheat a bit in the beginning, but if she'd wanted to rape him, she could have. She didn't.
But he tried to rape her. Physically, she could throw him off, no problem. But mentally and emotionally, she couldn't for a while. He told her that he would never hurt her and she'd believed him. Afterwards, she sits in her bathroom for we don't know how long. And Xander comes in on her and he's horrified. He was ready to stake Spike then and there. And Buffy stops him. She covers her bruises up and beats up the bad guy. Cathartic. Violence has always been her comfort food. And when she's looking for a place to stash Dawn, she tries to go to Spike. Why? Well, for starters, he can't physically hurt Dawn. She's human. And she does still trust him. She trusted Spike far more than he deserved, pre-souling. Was it her Slayer instinct? We don't know.
We know that Xander and Dawn never treat Spike the same way again, after they learn of the rape. Once upon a time, Xander lit a cigerette for a Spike who had hands too bruised and bloody to use. Once upon a time, Dawn was the only voice defending Spike in a sea of hat, saying that a chip was as good as a soul. After, the best Xander ever treats Spike is as an annoyance, a danger, or an idiot. Sometimes all at the same time. They never have back the comradery that they occasionally shared in the past. The closest they get is Him, and there, Spike's smart enough to stay silent and out of Xander's way the majority of the time. Quite a turnaround from his behavior around Xander before. And Dawn threatens to set Spike on fire if he ever touches Buffy again. She never looks at him as a hero or even an equal again. Again, the closest she gets to her old feelings towards Spike are in Him, when she compares his misdeeds to Xander's. She's never his 'little bit' again.
As far as we know, Willow and Giles never knew about the rape attempt. One was too absorbed in her own agony and one was absent. And as Buffy didn't mention the rape in our hearing, I doubt she mentioned it at all. So, their lack of response is attributed to that, and not to any lack of feeling.
Buffy's response to Spike is... incredibly complicated. She did trust him. His act of violent want destroyed that trust. So, Season Seven shows us the process of her rebuilding that trust, based on the fact that the soul makes a difference. Which she has to believe. This is the woman who was terrorized by the soulless version of her greatest love. She, above anyone else, must believe that the soul makes the difference. And she sees Spike's remorse, his pain, when no one else does. She sees his moments in the cold dark.
Buffy separates the monster from the man. Always has. In order to fight vampires, she has to believe that killing them is the only possible course of action. Otherwise, each dusting would damn her soul as a murderer.
But it does take her time to make that adjustment with Spike. She sees his remorse and still can't comfort him at first, because her pain is too close (Beneath You). And over time, she trusts him more and more, because she believes that a soul makes a difference. Buffy's always held a great belief in the soul ("Someone with a soul did this? - Gingerbread). Her reiteration of the phrase "He has a soul now" annoyed many, especially people who were bugged by the fact that that was her entire argument, but to Buffy that is the whole point. You don't kill people who have souls if you have a choice. The only time she ever does is in direct defense of her life or the life of a loved one.
She says it herself - she saw him change. She saw his remorse and his willingness to die for his sins.
So, overall, I don't actually have a problem with ME's treatment of rape. It's a huge, horrible big deal and they treat it as such. At least, I think that's my conclusion. Hell if I know. The whole Buffy/Spike thing kinda came out of nowhere for me.
There have been a lot of almost-rapes on Buffy - never a literal rape that actually succeeded, but a lot of attempts and a lot of things that were similiar and could be used as a parallel to rape. First off, I want to be clear on my definitions. When I say rape, I mean literal rape - forced sex.
I mean, in a way, the siring of every vampire is a rape. There's penetration and there's destruction and pain. It's a rape of the soul.
But the first actual attempt at addressing the topic is in The Pack. When Buffy drags Xander in ("He tried his hand at felony sexual assault."), Willow is immediately horrified at the idea that 'the hyena' in Xander might have raped Buffy. Buffy shrugs it off, similiar to how she moves past Spike's attempt, I think, though it certainly isn't an exact comparison. Both situations are hopelessly complicated. And in both cases, it was the fact that they weren't the monster who'd done the rape that let her move past it. It took her longer with Spike, because she'd known him as the monster for longer. But the situations are similar enough for comparison. I can understand both why he'd say he didn't remember and why they wouldn't tell him - it's not something that they want to think of Xander being capable of. Ever. Therefore, it isn't and should be pushed away. Do I think Xander capable of rape? Well, certainly not after The Pack, which brought home to him that he could be as dangerous to the people he loves as his dad was. He's given the opportunity to prove this in Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered when he turns down a smitten Buffy because it wouldn't really be her. She wouldn't really want it, so he isn't willing to let her.
The second attempted rape was in Go Fish, where the coach threatens to have the entire monsterfied swim team gang-rape Buffy. And in turn, he almost certainly got what he threatened to her, which I place firmly in the realm of poetic justice. But those were mutated kids and monsters. Buffy probably chalked that up to another icky fight. It was a monster attack. Scary but something she can handle.
The next explicit rape threat is from Faith, who holds Xander down and switches to trying to kill him half-way through. Before the rape/murder attempt happened, he was a big cheerleader in trying to help Faith. He's pretty quiet on the subject of helping her after that, as I recall. Before that, he really was into her. After, not so much. In fact, he pretty much avoided her. Was there any real Faith/Xander interaction in Season Seven? I can't think of any. Yeah, he wouldn't say anything. In some ways, he's very stereotypical guy-like. But his silence speaks volumes. When they speak of helping Faith in a late-season episode, he's facing away from the rest of the group. I don't think that he got over it at all. He got past it, but he didn't get over it. After all, when Buffy went after Faith, he was only concerned about the state of Buffy's soul, not about Faith getting hurt. I may be wrong about some of these things - as someone's borrowed my S7 tapes, so I don't have them on hand. But yeah, again that was a rape attempt - she didn't succeed. And you know, I think that was the first time that I ever applauded the appearance of Angel. He saved my guy.
Dracula, who definitely screwed with our guys' minds. Violation, yes, but no literal rape. Though Giles got close, being felt up by the three whatevers (were they sisters?). Xander was the closest to what I would consider a victim (well, I do consider him a victim of Dracula), as his mind was definitely violated and twisted - akin to what Glory and Willow later do to Tara. Foreshadowing?
While we're talking about minds, we could mention about the insertion of Dawn into everyone's memories - a type of violation as well. One that got quite a few people angry at the time.
Next rape threat - Season Six, Bargaining Part 2, the monster who says that his boys have 'parts that tear up little girls'. And he gets axed by the lesbian. Her first axing. Good for her.
Then comes the mind-wipe, which does lend an unseemly air to the Willow/Tara interactions, as Tara no longer can provide informed consent. Once Tara does get informed, she gets away from Wills, which I do also commend her for. But I also don't blame her for going back. She didn't say it was all forgiven and she didn't say that it was magically healed. She said she wanted to forget about the tough stuff and get back to the good stuff. Type of woman Tara was? She would have gotten back to the talking eventually, I think. But she loved Willow too much to stay away. Her choice. Informed consent.
Then there's Spike. Wow. The Spike issue is a big one. But Buffy didn't rape Spike. What she did wasn't anywhere near rape, though it was also aeons away from healthy. It's not rape if it's wanted and Buffy never forced sex on Spike. She withheld tenderness and caring, but she never pretended that that was on the menu. She informed him ("This isn't real, but I just wanna feel..."). He consented. And he chose to believe that she loved him when she'd told him she didn't. And when she beat him up (which was horrible for her to do), he encouraged her ("Put it on me!") because he thought it would tie her to him. No, she didn't rape him. The one time that came close (Gone), she leaves when he tells her to. Well, she does cheat a bit in the beginning, but if she'd wanted to rape him, she could have. She didn't.
But he tried to rape her. Physically, she could throw him off, no problem. But mentally and emotionally, she couldn't for a while. He told her that he would never hurt her and she'd believed him. Afterwards, she sits in her bathroom for we don't know how long. And Xander comes in on her and he's horrified. He was ready to stake Spike then and there. And Buffy stops him. She covers her bruises up and beats up the bad guy. Cathartic. Violence has always been her comfort food. And when she's looking for a place to stash Dawn, she tries to go to Spike. Why? Well, for starters, he can't physically hurt Dawn. She's human. And she does still trust him. She trusted Spike far more than he deserved, pre-souling. Was it her Slayer instinct? We don't know.
We know that Xander and Dawn never treat Spike the same way again, after they learn of the rape. Once upon a time, Xander lit a cigerette for a Spike who had hands too bruised and bloody to use. Once upon a time, Dawn was the only voice defending Spike in a sea of hat, saying that a chip was as good as a soul. After, the best Xander ever treats Spike is as an annoyance, a danger, or an idiot. Sometimes all at the same time. They never have back the comradery that they occasionally shared in the past. The closest they get is Him, and there, Spike's smart enough to stay silent and out of Xander's way the majority of the time. Quite a turnaround from his behavior around Xander before. And Dawn threatens to set Spike on fire if he ever touches Buffy again. She never looks at him as a hero or even an equal again. Again, the closest she gets to her old feelings towards Spike are in Him, when she compares his misdeeds to Xander's. She's never his 'little bit' again.
As far as we know, Willow and Giles never knew about the rape attempt. One was too absorbed in her own agony and one was absent. And as Buffy didn't mention the rape in our hearing, I doubt she mentioned it at all. So, their lack of response is attributed to that, and not to any lack of feeling.
Buffy's response to Spike is... incredibly complicated. She did trust him. His act of violent want destroyed that trust. So, Season Seven shows us the process of her rebuilding that trust, based on the fact that the soul makes a difference. Which she has to believe. This is the woman who was terrorized by the soulless version of her greatest love. She, above anyone else, must believe that the soul makes the difference. And she sees Spike's remorse, his pain, when no one else does. She sees his moments in the cold dark.
Buffy separates the monster from the man. Always has. In order to fight vampires, she has to believe that killing them is the only possible course of action. Otherwise, each dusting would damn her soul as a murderer.
But it does take her time to make that adjustment with Spike. She sees his remorse and still can't comfort him at first, because her pain is too close (Beneath You). And over time, she trusts him more and more, because she believes that a soul makes a difference. Buffy's always held a great belief in the soul ("Someone with a soul did this? - Gingerbread). Her reiteration of the phrase "He has a soul now" annoyed many, especially people who were bugged by the fact that that was her entire argument, but to Buffy that is the whole point. You don't kill people who have souls if you have a choice. The only time she ever does is in direct defense of her life or the life of a loved one.
She says it herself - she saw him change. She saw his remorse and his willingness to die for his sins.
So, overall, I don't actually have a problem with ME's treatment of rape. It's a huge, horrible big deal and they treat it as such. At least, I think that's my conclusion. Hell if I know. The whole Buffy/Spike thing kinda came out of nowhere for me.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Excellent post.
Date: 2003-10-25 03:57 am (UTC)What I find interesting is that Faith's attempted rape of Xander never got anywhere near as much attention by fans. I mean, I don't recall anyone objecting to Faith being presented as a sympathetic character afterwards. And it was attempted rape, as surely as the SR scene, plus Faith definitely was not soulless at the time.
As for Xander's attitude towards Faith afterwards - well, in This Year's Girl, Buffy is the only one (which is also often forgotten among the "Buffy is so mean to Faith!" crowd) suggesting there might be another solution than prison for Faith, or that Faith might be sorry for what she has done, or confused and in need of help. Willow and Xander both say she ought to be locked up, and Giles even considers handing her over to the Initiative, a fate he had saved Spike from just an episode earlier.
Re: Excellent post.
Date: 2003-10-25 03:58 pm (UTC)And yeah, Buffy was all on Faith's side until the mind-rape. So, just like Xander, really, only even more extreme.
Re: Excellent post.
Date: 2016-02-22 04:46 am (UTC)I'm not saying Faith's a saint, she's far from that, she is, in fact, a rapist: attempted rape and actual rape are effectively the same felony- only difference: how much damage is done.
I'm not saying that Buffy was only cruel to her either; but threatening someone with murder if they try to make it up to you is about the cruelest thing you can do to that someone!
Oh, and in real life human beings are truly horrible to oneanother; just look at world history: particularly WW2 East Front and the governments involved- about the only good guys there were the Poles, and as a nation they didn't last long at all!
As a species we humans are truly horrible to eachother; this may be what the writers of these series' are talking about by these sexual assaults in BtVS: how horrible beings with souls can be.
Also: just because you have a soul doesn't mean that you'll listen to it, or to your conscience when it tells you that you're doing something immoral- as Miss Lehane's must have done when she assaulted Mr. Harris in that way- even if she is a psychopath (and there's evidence for that in the series), she'd know that it's wrong to force someone to impregnate her (as rape by a woman of a guy would do, or could do).
Thank you though for this reply, it was enlightning, and I do agree with some of your views- that's part and parcel of being human.
Sincerely:
Silencer7.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 04:28 am (UTC)Granted, I could misremeber here. Feel free to correct me.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 08:46 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 08:39 am (UTC)Well, I think the main problem I have (concerning Buffy's reactions) is I've never felt that Buffy's ability to instantly seperate souled from non-souled and possessed from non-possessed is realistic. Yes, she has to believe that souled=not-a-moster (which is utter crap) in order to do her job, but I've never thought she really ever strugled with the idea. Normal!Xander and Souled!Spike may be different from Hyena!Xander and Normal!Spike, but they both still wear the face of her attempted-rapist and for almost anyone that fact should be a debilitating one. (Just as seeing Angel after Angelus *should* be.) Yes, it's commendable that she can forgive them so quickly in her belief that "it wasn't them," but I really just can't buy it.
By the end of The Pack, Buffy and Willow are laughing about the attempted rape like it's no big deal (which it obviously is to Xander if he's so ashamed that he wants to pretend he doesn't remember it rather than deal). This just makes no sense to me. There should atleast be *some* awkwardness between them. (Then again, the rest of the pack apparently didn't have to deal with killing the principal, so...)
As for Spike, yes their relationship is complicated. (btw- I don't believe she "raped" him either, though it was extremely abusive, but that tends to be the excuse I'm given when I bring up Spike attempt which is why I called it "sorta-rape".) But slayer-insticts or not, chip or not, you do not trust the most precious person in your life with the person who just attempted to rape you. It just... I can not make sense of it. That is just not what a normal person does. I can buy the whole S7 post-soul crap (sorta), but... she should want to keep Dawn as far away from Spike as possible. Her messed-up relationship can *maybe* excuse her trusting Spike with *herself*, but not with Dawn even if he can't directly hurt her with the chip.
(Personally I have major issues with the whole soul issue. If it "wasn't him," why does Angel feel guilty for things *Angelus* did and have to fight for his redemption? He wouldn't, unless it *was* him.)
The Willow/Tara thing. Yes, not physical rape. But... not only was it mind-rape, taking away Tara's informed choice with her memories, but it was also a repeat of a traumatic experience. Tara acted exactly how she should have. She got incredibly pissed off and disgusted and tried to stay far away, even while still trying to help Willow with her addiction. But I felt the only reason they had Tara come back was to make Willow feel worse when she died. I guess, had she survived, she would have made Willow face the issues again, but since we obviously don't see that, all we see is Tara saying "lets forget about all that so we can have sex" which bugged the hell outta me.
Like I said, the Faith/Xander thing happened just how it probably would have in real life though it bugged me that *nobody* noticed how quiet Xander was afterwards (but then again, somebody noticing Xander would be an oddity in itself) and that Faith never mentioned it. Xander and Dawn's S7 dealings with Spike felt real to me. The other stuff just grates me for different reasons.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 04:06 pm (UTC)The thing with Buffy... why I think she can do that is because she kills monsters every day. She has to know that they aren't the people they were. If she didn't believe that, she'd think of herself as a killer. She can't.
And she loved Angel more than anything else in the world. There's no way she could believe that Angelus was the same as Angel. That the monster capable of killing her mentor's love and tormenting her was the same guy that she kissed and touched and adored?
The laughing at the end of The Pack strikes me more as all of them playing it's okay. Xander pretending he didn't do anything and so are Buffy and Willow. Because Buffy and Willow know that that wasn't really Xander. Buffy knew it from near the beginning, even when Willow was willing to chalk it up to teenage boy meanness. Buffy's Slayer Sense really does help her, I think, in knowing when a problem is demon-related. Is she ever once wrong about that?
The Season Six Buffy/Spike relationship is so many levels of complicated and I have a birthday party to go to, so I'll table that until after I get a chance to rewatch the episodes. Ditto with W/T, which I do remember having a huge problem with at the time.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 01:40 pm (UTC)There are two attempts in Go Fish, the first where she's in the car with Swim Team boy and he grabs her, obviously about to attempt it.
Additionally, the body swap between Faith and Buffy is probably closer to rape than Willow's mind wipe of Tara. (Faith literally uses Buffy's body to have sex, for one thing.) Buffy's reaction is certainly similar to a rape survivor's reaction, which is why her behaviour towards Faith in "Sanctuary" makes perfect sense (Buffy even tells Faith that Faith has made her feel like a victim.)
My issues with the S7 writing is twofold. First WRT: "She says it herself - she saw him change. She saw his remorse and his willingness to die for his sins." She tells us. We don't see it.
Second, the metaphor used (soul=new man) continues to bother me for the reasons spelled out here.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-10-25 03:55 pm (UTC)She tells us. We don't see it.
We did in Beneath You, in the church. We did in Help - he 'hurt the girl'. He asks her to kill him in... bother, the one before Never Leave Me, yes? I think that they show us, but they don't ever show the Scoobies.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-08 12:53 pm (UTC)Faith's attempted murder/rape of Xander bothers the heck out of me because Faith was never shown to have explicitly dealt with it - and I think she should have. To me, Faith's "redemption/growth" storyline was handled really well in terms of her growing through her specific crimes and general character defects - save that this glaring incident was never addressed.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-01-08 05:31 pm (UTC)Yeah, that's always been my sticking point with Faith.
Have my own opinion on how ME treats rape in the specific case of Spike which differ quite a bit.
I actually can't see much in your essay that I disagree with. Spike has an... interesting attitude towards women, as most recently showcased in Destiny with Harmony. I was afraid (very afraid) that Joss would get Buffy and Spike together in Season Seven (and the very idea made me go ick). But I think the way their friendship developed felt real, especially considering Buffy's other relationship with an unsouled and souled vampire - she must believe in that separation.
But Spike, as has been shown by his actions in Angel, still has a ways to go in the growth department.
Faith Lehane and sexual assault/attempted murder.
Date: 2016-05-01 02:34 am (UTC)She did seem at least a tad psychopathic to me, though, at least early on in the series.
I'd very much like your opinions on this persepective, and don't worry about hurting me by disagreeing, that's part of what life's all about.
Sincerely;
Silencer 7.
Interesting and Excellent Post.
Date: 2016-02-22 05:03 am (UTC)Now, don't get me wrong, I love Willow, just not many of her actions, particularly her dark deeds.
Actually, some of the worst actions are done by human beings: rape, mass-murder, murder, thieft, adultery, those just skim the surface of horrible deeds... deeds needing a body to commit.
I'd dare risk saying that in fact, Buffy's relationship with Spike was one of mutual rape. Remember how she tells Tara that she's "using Spike", well, it's clear she's using him sexually, as a slave would be used. So, if he's her slave, isn't he unable to give consent- and thereby isn't she a rapist then? Just something to consider...
I know that the episodes can be researched on y o u t u b e, so they are still available, same deal with buying them in DVD format.
Isn't Tara also afraid of entering a house with Willow in it during Buffy's birthday party in Season 6? I seem to recall that she is: she says "the word "gulp" comes to mind" when Buffy asks her how she's doing after a greeting hug.
If Tara is afraid of anyone there, it's probably her ex-girlfriend at that time. I can't imagine her staying friends with Will after Willow raped her... that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me at all!
Sincerely glad you posted this, it's enlightening to me;
Signed:
Silencer7.