BtVS fandom opinions -

[butterfly]

Once again, I don't particularly care if they're unpopular or not, as that's hard enough to gauge even on the best of days.

1. A character doesn't have to have a story or even to be there all of the time to be important. My big example for this would be Xander (other examples include Lorne, Joyce, and Giles), who wasn't used as much in the post-high school years as he was in the during. I love Season Six and Seven Xander just as much as Season Two and Three. And just because he wasn't one of the showstoppers doesn't mean that he didn't do things that none of the other characters could logically or emotionally accomplish. He was the only way to bring back Willow at the end of S6, because of the way his various strengths and weaknesses have been developed. In Season Seven, he's the one who provides a safe place for Dawn. His story wasn't as important to Buffy as it had been in the beginning, but that doesn't mean that he lacked importance ever. In S4, he worries that he's a directionless loser, and in S5-S7, he overcomes that and realizes that he isn't. And he's still Xander, who attracts demon women and who would die for his loved ones in an instant. He's the emotional center of the Scooby gang.

2. Spike is far more interesting and dynamic with a soul than he was without.

3. Part of the reason that I never warmed as much to Oz was because he was a loner, not an outsider, and BtVS was always about the outsiders for me. Oz didn't fit at the beginning. Fit more when he got his wolf, but he was never really one of the gang to me, because it never seemed like he needed it. This may be why I warmed to Tara so quickly - she was an outsider.

4. This season of Angel is steeped in the past. This Wesley isn't quite the Wesley of early years, yet isn't fully the Wes of S4. This Angel makes so much more sense when you've seen everything that brought him here. Everyone at W&H is colored and influenced by where they've been and the beliefs we've heard them voice. Spike is the voice of the new, and yet with him, he brings even more history - Angel's history. And Spike may claim that Angelus made him a monster, but Angelus wasn't there for one hundred years, and Spike didn't stop being a monster until he was forced. And every episode this season has made reference to something earlier. It's all connected and there was never a lack of arc.

5. If you didn't get it the first time around, it can't be an anvil (an anvil being marked by that "Well, the Amish know what you mean!" feeling). It's foreshadowing, or it's characterization, or it's a plot point. Just because it sticks out after the conclusion of an arc, doesn't make it an anvil.

6. In retrospect, I like Cordy and Angel. Just as I liked Buffy and Riley once I'd seen that they were doomed. I'm perverse that way.

7. Jasmine was, in many ways, the extreme form of what Cordelia could be. Cordy advocated that Buffy should get special rules because she was a hero. She saw no problem with atheletes getting special benefits. So, she became a 'champion' and thought that made her better than all the non-champions. Very consistent characterization from where I'm standing. Well, sitting. What was it that Giles said - "We all are who we are, no matter how we may appear to have changed."

8. Alexis Denisof is the best actor that Joss has ever had.

9. The sound problems with Spike, early on? Never seemed out of place to me. I just figured that it was a ghost thing. They've always had ghosts talk wonky. Also, I had no problem with his characterization in the earlier episodes - this is Spike, one of the most physical people around. And he can't touch anything to start with. He's not going to be himself at first, because he doesn't feel like Spike anymore, if he can't bash things.

10. Dawn had a good arc. She grew up and we didn't actually need to see that journey (see: 1) because it isn't Dawn's story. We saw enough to see her turning points and that's enough. She had a full arc - went from being the 'baby' to being a capable young woman.

Comments

[ninjamidget.livejournal.com]

Also, I had no problem with his characterization in the earlier episodes - this is Spike, one of the most physical people around. And he can't touch anything to start with. He's not going to be himself at first, because he doesn't feel like Spike anymore, if he can't bash things.
Ooh, I hadn't thought about it that way. That actually makes a lot of sense.
All really good points, that one just really kicked me in the teeth and made me rethink my reactions to the first few eps. :)
Also, as for Denisof being the best actor...by far. By so far.
[I follow your posts through a friendsfriends...I really like your analyses. They always give me something to think about.]

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I'm glad that I helped. But yeah, he does a lot of clinging to himself in the first few episodes, before he learns that he can touch things. I mean, he's worse off here than he was when he was chipped by the Initiative, because at least then he could touch things, if not hit them.

And thank you.

[rocalisa.livejournal.com]

Very nice points.

I especially agree with (1), (2) and (10).

Some I hadn't considered before, especially your comments on Cordy, while others resonate nicely.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

And that's cool. I love seeing new points of view and love hearing that I may have given someone something new to think about.

Re: BtVS fandom opinions -

[yeungmaisu.livejournal.com]

Diana, while I haven't been able comment on Live Journal as much as I would like because of the injury to my arm, I wanted you to know how much I'm enjoying reading your analysis of the characters and episodes.

It's been like watching Buffy and Angel through new eyes and seeing them completely differently.

Thanks, sweetie. :)

Re: BtVS fandom opinions -

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Aw. That's so sweet. Thank you so much.

That's really one of the best compliments a person can get.

*hugs*

[cerisaye.livejournal.com]

This season of Angel is steeped in the past.
Absolutely, it may have been touted as a new beginning for the show but the characters are irretrievably coloured by the events of the past several years. I don't think you could make any sense of Angel as he is now without knowing what has brought him to where he is, if for e.g. you'd seen the character on BtVS and now tuned in to S5. I do think it's interesting that Wes hasn't regressed to the hero worshipping, insecure and affection starved man he was in the early days, which leads me to wonder about that mindwipe, just how many memories they retain pre Darla/Connor.


I agree with you on Alexis Denisof. He is subtle and quietly assured, inhabiting the skin of his character, conveying emotions and feelings in an understated way that is easy to miss unless you pay particular attention to what he's doing onscreen.

He's not going to be himself at first, because he doesn't feel like Spike anymore, if he can't bash things.

Very true. In addition Spike was landed through no choice of his own with Angel and his friends/colleagues, an obviously unwelcome presence on their home turf, so of course it's only natural that he'd put in place his old defensive barriers, resurrecting that abrasive snarky persona. By getting the digs in first he protects himself, as he always has done with Angel. It's significant that the ones he reveals himself to of course are Fred who is sympathetic and understanding, convincing him that he's a hero, and Eve who is Angel & Co.'s enemy.

I love reading your analyses. You always find something interesting and thought provoking to say. : )

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think that the mindwipe/worldtwist really is the Dawn sort - all the important events still happened, in much the same way, but with one person pushed in/pulled out. But interpersonal relationships that hinged solely on Connor - like the fact that Wesley doesn't act like someone who betrayed/was betrayed by his closest friends because there is no act that could possibly compare to the taking of Connor - those did shift.

Very good point. And he was always more vulnerable to the womenfolk in any case. Mama's boy. *giggles*

And thank you.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

A character doesn't have to have a story or even to be there all of the time to be important.

Attached is the corollary - just because we don't frequently see the character on the screen, and just because it isn't explicitly spelled out, doesn't mean that the character doesn't have a story. Or that it isn't a good story. (See your comments re:Dawn)

Spike is far more interesting and dynamic with a soul than he was without.

Because now that he is capable of understanding, his actions and choices really matter far more.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yes, so true. Very good points.

And yes, understanding is such a key thing. When Spike did things for his lady love, it didn't mean as much to his own character. Yes, he could save the world, but he couldn't develop and grow as a person. Without understanding, a person is trapped in who they already are.

You can't see past the choice you don't understand. I've read that somewhere.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

1, 2, and 6 -- very much agree. Though for my personal taste, I hated Spike in BtVS S7 but I'm starting to really like him in AtS S5. And I still cringe at some bad acting and lack of chemistry between DB and CC.

3. he was never really one of the gang to me, because it never seemed like he needed it. True, but the fact that he had outside friends was a cool character trait. He was different, serene, not quite like the other Scoobies. That was interesting. And agree re Tara.

4. I'm fascinated by where Joss can go with S5. On the surface, everything is new, with a vastly different premise for both the series and the Angelverse than S1-4. But still, so much history bubbling up just under that surface...

7. Jasmine was, in many ways, the extreme form of what Cordelia could be. Whoa, never saw it that way, but it makes perfect sense! And it's doubly damning cuz we never really know where Cordy left off and Jasmine began, until after Jasmine is actually born. How much of Cordelia informed Jasmine, and how much of Jasmine informed Cordelia?

8. Alexis Denisof is the best actor that Joss has ever had. No kidding! Best ever.

10. Agree that Dawn's story was there, though behind the scenes. It's just personal preference that I would've liked to see a little more of Dawn with Buffy, Faith, and Xander. Michelle Tractenberg is very talented and had good chemistry with pretty much all the other actors. I'd have loved to see more Dawn-Faith interaction, for instance.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Re: DB and CC
I do think that they lacked much romantic chemistry, but I actually can believe in Angel falling for her, this time around. He was ready to fall in love, and he was really close to her.

Re: Oz
Oh, he was a cool character, but he never felt like 'one of the gang' to me. He wasn't ever family in the way that Tara did eventually become because he never let himself need them the way that she did.

Re: S5
I just love that Joss told the network that he would be less arc-y and instead of actually being less arc-y, he hid it. I love Joss.

Re: Jasmine and Cordy
I can't wait for the S3 dvds for just that reason. I'm wondering if it really started in Birthday or if her progression before then feels natural. I actually haven't seen quite a bit of S3.

Re: Alexis
He just gets better each time I watch him. And he's amazing enough the first time! So many nuances and he's so real and completely different from Alexis himself.

Re: Dawn
I'd have liked to see more Dawn, too. And more Xander. How much would I have given for a Faith-Xander scene? Instead we got a sex joke that made me want to smack the girl.

MT's a good actor. I'm very glad that they added Dawn. She does have great chemistry with pretty much everyone. But I feel like we did get a complete story with what we got.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I dunno about the Cordelia thing, given that Buffy herself thought Buffy neededed special rules for being special. But then I never really cared much about Cordelia, and she bugged me in S4.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

When did Buffy ever say she should have special rules? She refuted Faith saying it. She did say she was the law, but that's different - that was an assertion of the fact that when it comes to demons, she has to act as the law/protector for humanity.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

When did Buffy ever say she should have special rules? She refuted Faith saying it. She did say she was the law, but that's different - that was an assertion of the fact that when it comes to demons, she has to act as the law/protector for humanity.

Which makes it all semantics that she never says she needs special rules - with that one she's assuming and demanding that she be allowed to rule all because she's Special. Where the hell's she got any moral and intellectual authority from? She does think she's deserving of special rules; hell, she doesn't even think she needs a Watcher.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

She has the power to inforce it and the will to use that power for good. And the 'authorities' haven't got a clue about that part of the world.

And who gave the Watchers authority? I'm guessing themselves. Buffy has fought and died for the world, and yeah, that gives her some say. She's the one putting her life on the line every night she patrols. And she does have to be the law in supernatural cases because there is no law that can handle them but her. She's the one with the experience and the ability.

I don't trust the system of Watchers or think that they have the right to make the rules.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

She has the power to inforce it and the will to use that power for good. And the 'authorities' haven't got a clue about that part of the world.

Which authorities? Do you mean legal govt. people, which isn't what I was going for but they do seem to know since they had the Initiative and all that junk.

And who gave the Watchers authority? I'm guessing themselves.

Which I reckon is more valid than Buffy giving herself authority, since at least they know what the hell's going on. Slayers? Soooo not infallible.


Buffy has fought and died for the world, and yeah, that gives her some say. She's the one putting her life on the line every night she patrols.

So have a lot of people, including the Watchers. And Willow. And Xander. And... Being the Slayer can't give her automatic infallibility or authority - Psycho!Faith being fairly decent example of why not.


And she does have to be the law in supernatural cases because there is no law that can handle them but her. She's the one with the experience and the ability.

And the Watchers. And Willow. And xander. And...

I don't trust the system of Watchers or think that they have the right to make the rules.

Why not? Noone has the innate right, and if someone has to assume the responsibility I'd rather it was a group of highly-trained, highly intelligent dedicated people than one wee girl with awful shoes.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

And Watchers are infallible? After all the corruption that we've seen and the way they treat young women as mere tools?

I think it's a bit like the 'slayer sense' - I think that Buffy's understanding and gifts make her capable of the judgements that we make and you don't. It's a three-four situation.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Three-four what?

Any authority's going to be fallible, I just reckon Buffy's more likely to be demented about it.

Besides, they so are just tools.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I see a three, you see a four, we each think the other is crazy - and we're each looking at one side of a die.

Fundmental point of view differences where I cannot see where you're coming from and vice versa.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Point.

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

Which authorities? Do you mean legal govt. people, which isn't what I was going for but they do seem to know since they had the Initiative and all that junk.

Yeah, I can see why incompetent demon-hunting, nonconsenual surgery on soldiers, and the building of S4's Big Bad would incline Buffy to trust the Initiative's creators.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

And you can't forget the Mayor. Oh. And there was Principal Synder. Yes, these examples will build Buffy's confidence in authority figures.

And that's not including everything the Council's done.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

She has the power to inforce it and the will to use that power for good. And the 'authorities' haven't got a clue about that part of the world.

And who gave the Watchers authority? I'm guessing themselves. Buffy has fought and died for the world, and yeah, that gives her some say. She's the one putting her life on the line every night she patrols. And she does have to be the law in supernatural cases because there is no law that can handle them but her. She's the one with the experience and the ability.

I don't trust the system of Watchers or think that they have the right to make the rules.

[avrelia.livejournal.com]

It seems that time in LJ land runs way faster than outside. I liked this post, but I didn't have time to comment, and now I feel like I am terribly outdated with my thoughts. Anyway, here they are:

1. I agree on the point of Xander, as well as more general observation. Just because the journey of the character is not as visible, it doesn't mean the character doesn't develop. Pretty much the same goes for your (10) – Dawn. She did grow during the seasons 6-7 (when she wasn't in the focus of the story.) Of course, I would prefer more attention to be paid to her during S7, but nevertheless, I was quite happy about her by the end of "Chosen". Another example of it is Anya. I saw too many opinions that stated that Anya should have died in "Selfless", because she had nothing more to do till her death. Which is wrong, because she had her own story, her own conflicts to be resolved, her own life to come to terms with. It was just out of focus of the main story.

2. I think, I like of kinds of Spike, but it is not quite... You see, I began to watch BtVS after Season 6 ended. I watched earlier seasons on reruns prior to beginning of Season 7 (or along the way), but I already knew main points of the season 6's ending – including Willow's rampage, Xander's world-saving and Spike's soul. So my perception was coloured by this fact significantly. And if in earlier seasons Spike amuses me, only in later seasons I actually care about him. Besides, I see getting a soul as a growing up – he stops playing Peter Pan and begins to deal with himself. I also think his characterization throughout S7 and now, on AtS5 is consistent.

7. Now, that's an interesting point! I watched Angel rather irregularly – again, I began with season 4, and saw small parts of previous seasons on reruns, so I was trying to understand what and why happened to Cordy. I mean, to compare Cordy of seasons 2-3 BtVS to Cordy AtS4 - Guh! How come? Why did she become evil – super-good Jasmine? But your explanation actually made sense of it. Have to think some more.

And can I also add off topic how highly enjoyable your entries are?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It's never too late to comment. Well, that's how I feel, at least.

1. Definitely agree re: Anya - an epiphany (as she had in Selfless) means nothing if it doesn't last. If she'd died there, she would have died without hope.

2. Exactly. He couldn't really change until he had the soul - that's when he accepted his responsibility to the rest of humanity.

7. There were always seeds of Jasmine in Cordy - the absolute belief in her own superiority, for one.

And thank you! That's always nice to hear.