Fred and Wesley -- S5 timeline

[butterfly]

I can't sleep, so I think.

In rewatching this season, I'm all 'wow' over just how Wes/Fred it is. I mean, I didn't notice the first time around, but now that I know that they do get together, I'm noticing things like consistently placing them next to each other in scenes and well... body language.

I mean, that's not the only foreshadowingy thing (I got chills when the psychic spat blood on Fred in Hellbound), but it's there.

It kinda goes like this:

5x01, Conviction: The set-up of the season -- the Knox/Fred/Wes triangle begins here. Fred says that Wes is a bit condescending and is encouraging towards Knox.
5x05, Life of the Party: Confirmation of Fred liking Knox. She treats Wes as a close friend. At the end of the episode, Knox and Fred show signs of a thing.
5x07, Lineage: Wes shoots his faux-dad and tells Fred it was because of her. Knox drives her home from work.
5x09, Harm's Way: Harmony gets Fred to reveal she thinks both Wes and Knox are hot.
5x12, You're Welcome: Fred gives Wes an interesting look during his magic-working.
5x13, Why We Fight: Fred makes a dismissive comment about Knox.
5x14, Smile Time: Confirmation that Fred and Knox had a thing and it's over, much flirting towards Wes, and a kiss at the end.

After Lineage, Fred seems to generally place herself near Wes if they're sharing a scene. And it is pretty much Fred who's doing the placing - she sits on the arm of the chair he's in, sits in a chair he's already near. Stuff like that. And she walks next to him, where, season three, she tended to walk next to Gunn. Lineage feels like the turning point for her (and I'd like to point out how screwed up that makes her, falling for the guy willing to murder for her - it's a Fred-thing, though. She's a survivor and it makes sense to place herself with the person most likely to do whatever it takes to keep her alive. And I like that they have a really twisted relationship that functions through need and idealization - I think this is because I like DarkandObsessed!Wes so much.).

But yeah, it changes about halfway between the start of the season and when they do get together. In the rewatch, the lead-up to Fred/Wes feels pretty natural.

Comments

[soundingsea.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I totally forgot about the psychic spitting blood on Fred. Great catch.

And yeah, I agree with your analysis of where Wes/Fred changed. It's interesting, though, that Gunn murdering for her broke their relationship, and Wes doing a similar thing makes her willing to start one. Is the difference that Gunn took away her choice to do the killing herself?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I totally forgot about the psychic spitting blood on Fred. Great catch.

It creeped me out so much when I was watching Hellbound. Foreshadowing of the deadly kind.

And yeah, I agree with your analysis of where Wes/Fred changed. It's interesting, though, that Gunn murdering for her broke their relationship, and Wes doing a similar thing makes her willing to start one. Is the difference that Gunn took away her choice to do the killing herself?

Right -- Gunn murdered so that she wouldn't, while Wes murdered because he was the one with the gun. Wes is fine with Fred being violent, which is the primary difference between him and Gunn in regards to Fred. Wes may put her on a pedestal, but it's one well in reach of weapons.

[taskir.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering--do you have all the episodes on tape and/or downloaded, or do you just have an incredible memory? :)

Also, I wanted to thank you. I've been called upon to write some Fred/Illyria, Wes, and Spike drabbles, and your analysises (analysi? analyses?) of the characters and episodes have been extremely helpful.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering--do you have all the episodes on tape and/or downloaded, or do you just have an incredible memory? :)

I record. I must rewatch the great episodes -- and it really helps with making connections. Plus, it means I can continue to get my parents to watch (both wouldn't normally because a) my mom hates commercials and b) my dad works Tuesdays and can't be bothered setting up an automatic recording).

Also, I wanted to thank you. I've been called upon to write some Fred/Illyria, Wes, and Spike drabbles, and your analysises (analysi? analyses?) of the characters and episodes have been extremely helpful.

Thank you. I'm thrilled that I've been helpful. I mean, I'd continue to write on even if no one else cared, but it gives me a warm glow when people do.

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

I really like your analysis in the penultimate paragraph of how Fred's attitude/body language toward Wes changes -- v subtle, but definitely there.

wrt Fred/Gunn vs. Fred/Wes -- my take on it would be, in "Supersymmetry" she actually goes to Wesley because she knows he'll help her: "Angel and Gunn want me to be all sweetness and light. Cute little Fred. She'll turn the other cheek like a good girl"...."Charles doesn't have it in him. It's part of what I love about him." She's deliberately seeking out the dark, ruthless pragmatic side of Wesley (that's also when she finds out he's been keeping track of her, and seems interested in that). Gunn is the one who wants to take care of her, at the point where she realizes her mentor is also the one who couldn't deal with the threat she represented -- what he says to her at the last minute is "If you kill him, I'm gonna lose you" -- meaning he'll lose the idealized Fred she mocked before. It's interesting how there's that parallel between "Supersymmetry" and "Lineage" -- Fred knows Wesley will do what she needs him to do. Gunn in "Supersymmetry" with the cocoa reminds me of Buffy trying to talk down Willow in "Tough Love". In both cases, a character usually seen as "good" is patronized and underestimated.

Also, when Wesley bitterly tells Gunn in "Spin the Bottle" (which is also where Gunn refers to himself as just "the muscle" and links Wes and Fred intellectually) "I had my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me," the similarity is underlined between him and Fred -- he was abandoned by the MoG, she was abandoned in Pylea. I think Fred might also feel guilt and anger at Gunn, not just that he took on what she was prepared to do but now she has to realize he has that darkness in him too -- they both idealized each other, and it backfired. It's interesting how in "Angel" "I would do anything for you" takes on a dark tinge.

((apologies to butterfly for babbling on at length in her space, I was just struck by the thought and wanted to get it down))

moi

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I really like your analysis in the penultimate paragraph of how Fred's attitude/body language toward Wes changes -- v subtle, but definitely there.

Thank you. And yeah, I think that the current run of episodes is showing that AA is a much better actor than she normally gets credit for -- because I know that now, I'm watching her character choices more closely.

In both cases, a character usually seen as "good" is patronized and underestimated.

Right. Wes may idealize Fred in some ways (seeing her as a representation of what in the world is worth fighting for), but he understands that she has darkness and he doesn't try to take that away from her (unlike Gunn with Fred or, hell, Angel with Cordy, as in Billy).

It's interesting how in "Angel" "I would do anything for you" takes on a dark tinge.

One of the things that I love about the show. Because that sentiment, while highly romantic, is also highly creepy. Much like Wesley (or Spike).

[livinglaurel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I feel bad for carping about Fred now -- I still don't like Fred all that much, but I like Amy Acker awfully. I hope she gets some more interesting parts in future that let her show a little more range than Fred. I'd imagine getting to go from Fred to Illyria should help.

I'd forgotten that wrt Cordy and Angel -- and also that Fred calls Wesley and goes to his apartment to try to coax him back, forgiving him, and Wesley's the one who recoils in horror at what was revealed ("I don't know what kind of man I am anymore." "Well, I do. - You're a good man") -- pretty interesting in terms of gender relations.

Aha, that lets me understand the Spike and Buffy of S6 a little better, too. Because (mainly cause I'm a romantic sort) I was seeing the knightly, courtly, devoted side of Spike, but that sort of devotion -- idealization -- does have a bad side (even if it got sort of swept under the rug in all the "I have to get a soul" stuff -- as if people who have souls automatically aren't rapists....but not to get into the whole SR thing).

moi

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten that wrt Cordy and Angel -- and also that Fred calls Wesley and goes to his apartment to try to coax him back, forgiving him, and Wesley's the one who recoils in horror at what was revealed ("I don't know what kind of man I am anymore." "Well, I do. - You're a good man") -- pretty interesting in terms of gender relations.

Right -- and honestly, when it comes to these things, I'm going with Fred over Wes and Lilah in regards to whether Wes is a misogynist. Now, he has a self-hate streak, and he can completely bulldoze over anyone in his way if he believes the cause just, but he certainly doesn't hate women in particular.

Aha, that lets me understand the Spike and Buffy of S6 a little better, too. Because (mainly cause I'm a romantic sort) I was seeing the knightly, courtly, devoted side of Spike, but that sort of devotion -- idealization -- does have a bad side (even if it got sort of swept under the rug in all the "I have to get a soul" stuff -- as if people who have souls automatically aren't rapists....but not to get into the whole SR thing).

Well, he couldn't be a man -- that was part of the problem. Spike could try to be want Buffy wanted, but he was never an independent moral agent until he had his soul. And Spike knew that as a human, he'd been a good man (whether or not it's actually true is up to debate, but in his heart, Spike knew it to be true), and therefore, if he had a soul, he would be a good man again. And wouldn't hurt Buffy, wouldn't be able to. It makes sense if you take in Spike's beliefs about his human self into account.

[inyron.livejournal.com]

she sits on the arm of the chair he's in, sits in a chair he's already near. Stuff like that. And she walks next to him, where, season three, she tended to walk next to Gunn.

Wow. That's so cool. I've heard and agreed with the theory that Lineage was the turning oint for her, but that wasn't even taking the blocking into account. Cheers for the directors.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Wow. That's so cool. I've heard and agreed with the theory that Lineage was the turning oint for her, but that wasn't even taking the blocking into account. Cheers for the directors.

And that's just mostly from the stuff I remember off the top of my head -- I'm planning on a more detailed look at their relationship when I have time to sit down and rewatch more closely (which, by my current schedule, will be on the twelfth of never... but I must hope).