Stargate (SG-1) -- Oma and Daniel

[butterfly]

I'm wondering if she said what Daniel thought she said. After all, he doesn't really 'get' her, they never truly connect. Is he reading the right meaning into her words?

First, let's examine the set-up. Daniel walks out of the darkness, into the gate room. That's an interesting choice. It certainly fits -- the Stargate is what took him out of his own world the first time.

Oma's face is... stern, almost forbidding. Not an incredibly reassuring look, at least.

"Your fate is in your hands."

Now, is she speaking of this one choice? Yes, but also no. She's speaking of his life's path. His fate has always been in his hands, but he's forgotten what that means.

Daniel shifts directly from a conversation with Jack to one with Oma, which makes me wonder if Jack can hear the rest of his side of the conversation here (aside: I adore Jack in this episode. He's so fierce in saving any part of Daniel he can, even when the only thing he may be able to save is Daniel's reputation.).

"Lightning flashes. Sparks shower. In one blink of your eyes, you have mis-seen."

Right. What did you mean when you said my fate was in my hands?

"When the mind is enlightened, the spirit is freed and the body matters not."

You're talking about ascension, right?

The camera shifts to Oma's face here, which is closed. It's interesting how quickly Daniel jumps on the ascension idea.

Rising to a different plane of existence. You're saying I could do that? Become like you?

"You must complete the journey you began at Kheb."

I wasn't around for Maternal Instinct. What journey, precisely, did Daniel begin there? Because as an answer to his actual question, it really doesn't seem to be.

"Only then will you be able to find your way to the Great Path."

Shifu mentions this in Absolute Power. Says that all individual paths eventually lead to the Great Path.

What do I do?

"Release your burden."

Okay, well, consider it released. What's step two?

"A tall man cannot hide in the short grass."

"You know, I really don't have time for one of these conversations.

"One cannot reach enlightenment by running from death."

'Self-preservation is a powerful instinct' -- Daniel to Teal'c in S7's The Changeling. Oma is telling him that she knows that he wants to ascend because dying is scaring the hell out of him. He won't reach enlightenment that way.

Tell me what to do.

"Many roads lead to the Great Path. Only the willing will find their way.

Okay, well, I'm willing. So, let's go. Do your thing. Glow me.

"The river tells no lies, though standing on the shore, the dishonest man still hears them."

Right. I didn't think it was going to be that easy.

The next time we see Daniel and Oma, they've both made themselves more comfortable, sitting down on the stairs/platform for the Stargate. Their discussion turns more intimate and caring.

Millions could still die.

"The future's never certain. You saved many without regard for your own life."

I could have destroyed the device.

"You believe your journey is still not over."

Actually, I'm not sure what the point of my journey this far has been. I mean, if the point is being honest with yourself... I believe my entire life has been a failure.

We see Sam sitting in Oma's place, refuting his point -- "Just so you know, Jonas had a change of heart." We see that she is by his bedside, truly telling him these things.

"You can never reach enlightenment if you do not believe you are worthy."

Then, I guess we may have a problem.

When Teal'c comes in, he offers a gift back to Daniel. I don't know the circumstances of the gift, or what it meant to the two of them.

I know that it shifts the scene. Daniel is no longer with Oma and no longer in the Stargate room. He and Teal'c communicate together through the medium used in his conversations with Oma, much as he does with Jack later. It's interesting that he and Sam do not communicate. She offers him something that he doesn't accept -- validation of his own worthiness. He doesn't connect back to her the way he does with Teal'c and Daniel. Put together with his actions in S6 and his dream in Absolute Power and I think that Daniel's feelings toward Sam are a lot more complicated than hers toward him.

"Because it is so clear, it takes a long time to realize it. If you immediately know that the candlelight is fire, the meal was cooked a long time ago."

Yeah, a monk at Kheb said that to me. I didn't know what it meant then and I don't know now.

"Why do you feel you have failed on your journey? You opened the Stargate for your world."

I cracked the code. A lot of other people made it work.

"The very next thing you did was help free the people of Abydos from evil."

I had the chance to live out my life with her. I couldn't leave it alone. I was the one that unburied the gate, what happened to her was my fault. I couldn't save Sha're. I couldn't save Sarah. Every Gou'old I helped eliminate; another one took its place. Maybe I did something good every now and again but nothing I've ever done seems to have changed anything.

"These tasks of which you speak were great challenges. Perhaps they were even impossible to achieve."

Does that absolve me?

"You feel your journey must continue until you have found redemption for these failures?"

No. Not any more. Not if I'm dead.

"Exactly true."

You said I was the only one qualified to judge myself. So matter how much I want to achieve enlightment, or whatever you want to call it, what happens if I look at my life and I honestly don't believe I deserve it?

"The success or failure of your deeds does not add up to the sum of your life. Your spirit cannot be weighed. Judge yourself by the intention of your actions and by the strength with which you have faced the challenges that have stood in your way."

What if I can't?

"The people closest to you have been trying to tell you that you have made a difference. That you did change things for the better."

Not enough.

"The universe is vast and we are so small. There is really only one we can ever truly control."

What's that?

"Whether we are good or evil."

I adore the music here. Beautiful.

You're leaving? You can't leave.

"The rest is up to you."

Why? Why me? Why give me this chance?

"Anyone can reach enlightenment. Anyone prepared to open their mind as you did when you first came to Kheb."

They're trying to save me. They're healing me. I can feel it.

"Then your journey will continue as before."

And this is where Daniel makes a quick and decisive choice. Because before, it was ascension or death. Ascension would have been running away from death. Here, he has a choice between ascension and his old life.

What if I don't want to? Not that way.

"Walking the Great Path brings great responsibility. You cannot fear it nor hesitate in your resolve."

I understand. I'm ready to go with you.

"Then stop them."

In what I've seen, ascension always occurs in the moment of death. If this is true across the board, it's an interesting thing to think about.


Ah, and Stella Kowalski is a bigoted fascist in S4's The Other Side. At least, I'm pretty sure that's the same actor. It's the episode that Odo's in. He's also a bigoted fascist.

Comments

[carlachameleon.livejournal.com]

Wow, interesting thoughts on the episode yet again! I'm so glad that you've become interested in SG:)

I'm going to delurk to say that Jacob did say earlier in the episode that the healing device could only do so much, and Daniel would probably never fully recover from the radiation poisoning - he might be disabled and horribly disfigured.

But yes, there is a sense in season 5 that Daniel has become disillusioned with his life and especially with the goals of the SGC. He does have a choice to stay, and yet decides to ascend. I think that says a lot about what makes Daniel tick - his need to understand, to find out. And he believes that his ideals and his work at the SGC isn't appreciated -especially by Jack. He definitely sees ascenscion as an escape from his old life.

I love how in season 7 he does make the comment that he ascended for Jack - because Jack needed him. Daniel has a big need to be wanted, to be a help. He ascended because he had no understanding of how much he was needed, and descended because he realised that he could achieve more with SG1 and that he was needed and sorely missed.

He was able to see the communication problems between the team for what they were - he wasn't taken for granted - but his friends were unable to convey it in a way that Daniel would understand.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Wow, interesting thoughts on the episode yet again! I'm so glad that you've become interested in SG:)

I love this show so much! Eee!

I'm going to delurk to say that Jacob did say earlier in the episode that the healing device could only do so much, and Daniel would probably never fully recover from the radiation poisoning - he might be disabled and horribly disfigured.

Did Daniel know that? He just knew that Jacob was trying to heal him, yes? That Jacob was healing him.

But yes, there is a sense in season 5 that Daniel has become disillusioned with his life and especially with the goals of the SGC. He does have a choice to stay, and yet decides to ascend. I think that says a lot about what makes Daniel tick - his need to understand, to find out. And he believes that his ideals and his work at the SGC isn't appreciated -especially by Jack. He definitely sees ascenscion as an escape from his old life.

I so hurt for Daniel in S4 and S5 because I'm watching his fall downward towards that despair that he reaches in Menace and Meridian. I know how it ends, so I can see just how it's happening.

I love how in season 7 he does make the comment that he ascended for Jack - because Jack needed him. Daniel has a big need to be wanted, to be a help. He ascended because he had no understanding of how much he was needed, and descended because he realised that he could achieve more with SG1 and that he was needed and sorely missed.

Oh, boy, does he. Daniel's a pretty needy person. He's also a really strong person, emotionally, but he's needy as hell.

He was able to see the communication problems between the team for what they were - he wasn't taken for granted - but his friends were unable to convey it in a way that Daniel would understand.

*whimpers*

*wants to see S7*

*wants to see S8*

Oh, I can just see myself cracking before July 7th and ordering Sci-Fi. Because I want to see Daniel unfolding when I have no clue where he's going.

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

I wasn't around for Maternal Instinct. What journey, precisely, did Daniel begin there? Because as an answer to his actual question, it really doesn't seem to be.

Have you read the transcript? Maternal Instinct is where Daniel first encounters Oma, and where he gives up Shifu permanently into her keeping. There's a temple with instructions on the walls about how to ascend; Daniel is briefly deceived (by Oma; it doesn't really make a lot of sense) into believe he's learning how to control the elements (make fire appear, yada yada). The monk who maintains the temple talks about burden-releasing, etc.

Also, it's a great episode for Jack-and-Daniel.

Actually, I'm not sure what the point of my journey this far has been. I mean, if the point is being honest with yourself... I believe my entire life has been a failure.

God, he kills me here. Kills me. The entire episode is just such a perfect evocation of that kind of depression where your entire mental energy is dedicated to tearing yourself down. "You think you can come up with something positive about me? Well, I'll show you! I can twist it into something negative!"

He and Teal'c communicate together through the medium used in his conversations with Oma, much as he does with Jack later.

I don't think they're actually communicating in that scene, are they? Teal'c doesn't actually hear Daniel.

Incidentally, in Fallen--the S7 premiere--Daniel connects with Sam pretty promptly. More comfortably than he does with Jack, really.

In what I've seen, ascension always occurs in the moment of death. If this is true across the board, it's an interesting thing to think about.

Yeah, I think that's right. In the second scene with him and Jack--after Jack tells Jacob to stop--you can see on his face the moment when his body dies.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Wait, so in Maternal Instinct, Oma makes Daniel believe that he has the power when he doesn't? Damn, they may not have been actually planning to bring Daniel back, but they set-up bringing him back. It makes more story-sense for Maternal Instinct to be foreshadowing the ascension story-line, including the idea that Daniel wasn't ever truly ascended (just as he didn't truly have the memories of the Harcesis in Absolute Power).

Odd idea -- what if Oma was offering a way for him to pull back and heal from the damages of his current life? After all, he basically just had a year sabbatical, but he thought it would be a life-change. Just as he did with Abydos, which was also a year. And Absolute Power covers a year in the dream.

God, he kills me here. Kills me. The entire episode is just such a perfect evocation of that kind of depression where your entire mental energy is dedicated to tearing yourself down. "You think you can come up with something positive about me? Well, I'll show you! I can twist it into something negative!"

Yeah, I really identified with him there, because I very much understand that mindset.

I don't think they're actually communicating in that scene, are they? Teal'c doesn't actually hear Daniel.

I don't know. Daniel reaches out to Teal'c, even if Teal'c can't hear. He reaches... there's something. I really want to see season six now.

Incidentally, in Fallen--the S7 premiere--Daniel connects with Sam pretty promptly. More comfortably than he does with Jack, really.

I've read transcripts, seen vids. Haven't heard tone of voice, sadly. What makes things different in Fallen? The Daniel that connects with Sam is one that's lost his memory, yes? He also connects very well with Sam in the beginning of the series. S1 Daniel and Sam are very sib!vibey. In the Season four and five episodes that I've seen, he's pulled away from her. His feelings for her look complicated. I don't think that he's stopped caring about her, but... I don't know, there's a distance.

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

Wait, so in Maternal Instinct, Oma makes Daniel believe that he has the power when he doesn't?

Yeah. They didn't plan to get rid of Daniel until MS decided he wanted out after S5, but they set it all up pretty well, really.

I really want to see season six now.

You know, I have S1-3 on DVD and S6 and S7 on tape. You're going to be at Vividcon, right? If you have something in particular you still haven't seen by then that you want to see, I could set you up.

The Daniel that connects with Sam is one that's lost his memory, yes?

Yes. She's also more touchy-feely with him in S7 than she had been previously, which I choose to interpret as her taking the lessons of Meridian to heart.

I think... at the beginning of the series, they're in very similar positions. She is military, but she's a scientist first. They're both kind of the excited kids, as opposed to Jack and Teal'c as grown-up warriors. As Sam and Daniel get older, settle into their roles, those roles diverge somewhat. Daniel grabs onto this whole I Am The Voice Of Morality thing--I don't mean that as a slam on him, but it's clearly a big part of the role he takes on--and Sam becomes more strongly military, more of a 2IC/partner to Jack. (Plus, of course, the whole romantic angle.)

I don't interpret that as anything particularly complex in Daniel's feelings toward her--anyway not anything that he's feeling that he isn't feeling about the rest of the SGC in general, as he feels less and less certain of himself. You certainly could, though; there's a popular Daniel-characterization where he's upset in S4/5 because Jack and Sam pulled away from him and toward each other. (I'm not a fan of that characterization, but that's probably because I've read one too many Poor Danny fanfic along those lines.)

Have you read the Orpheus transcript? At the end of that one, he actually goes so far as to say he'd never really felt like he belonged anywhere.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah. They didn't plan to get rid of Daniel until MS decided he wanted out after S5, but they set it all up pretty well, really.

And after watching S4 and part of 5, I do understand why -- his character was side-lined. He still has cool things going on, but they're all more in background and in the first season, Daniel is very much in the foreground.

You know, I have S1-3 on DVD and S6 and S7 on tape. You're going to be at Vividcon, right? If you have something in particular you still haven't seen by then that you want to see, I could set you up.

Fallen, for sure. I know that I want to see that and S7 isn't out on dvd yet, I believe (also, eee! VividCon!).

Yes. She's also more touchy-feely with him in S7 than she had been previously, which I choose to interpret as her taking the lessons of Meridian to heart.

Smart of her. He could die at any time. He's done it before.

I think... at the beginning of the series, they're in very similar positions. She is military, but she's a scientist first. They're both kind of the excited kids, as opposed to Jack and Teal'c as grown-up warriors. As Sam and Daniel get older, settle into their roles, those roles diverge somewhat. Daniel grabs onto this whole I Am The Voice Of Morality thing--I don't mean that as a slam on him, but it's clearly a big part of the role he takes on--and Sam becomes more strongly military, more of a 2IC/partner to Jack. (Plus, of course, the whole romantic angle.)

Yeah, I'm definitely seeing that. It especially shows in episodes like Scorched Earth.

I don't interpret that as anything particularly complex in Daniel's feelings toward her--anyway not anything that he's feeling that he isn't feeling about the rest of the SGC in general, as he feels less and less certain of himself. You certainly could, though; there's a popular Daniel-characterization where he's upset in S4/5 because Jack and Sam pulled away from him and toward each other. (I'm not a fan of that characterization, but that's probably because I've read one too many Poor Danny fanfic along those lines.)

I'm a big believer in two-sided problems. They pull away from him, but he pulls away, too. I think that part of his problem is feeling more isolated because of the Jack/Sam tension, but it's definitely not the biggest thing. For me, his big thing does seem to center around, as you put it, that whole Voice of Morality thing (though I'd edge more towards 'ethics' than 'morals' as the word 'moral' contains a religious vibe (for me) that I don't get from Daniel's beliefs about how people should treat each other). He really, really embraces that role. But since my ethics pretty much mesh with his, I can understand him so much better than I can Jack or Sam (Teal'c, I'm still trying to figure out).

Have you read the Orpheus transcript? At the end of that one, he actually goes so far as to say he'd never really felt like he belonged anywhere.

Someone mentioned that line to me. And, you know, I can definitely see him feeling that way. I think that there are times when he's thought that he's found a place that he could belong to, but that he hadn't taken the step of feeling as though he does belong. Even with Sha're... he wouldn't keep the gate buried.

[katie-m.livejournal.com]

Fallen, for sure. I know that I want to see that and S7 isn't out on dvd yet, I believe (also, eee! VividCon!).

Check. I'll try to remember, but reminders are always good.

Even with Sha're... he wouldn't keep the gate buried.

And if he had, Abydos would probably be alive today. Of course, Earth would probably be a burned cinder, but he's not a man to be reasonable at that sort of thing.