Why We Fight -- so as to Not Fade Away (and somehow S2-5 BtVS sneaks in there)

[butterfly]

I was so busy thinking about the Lawson/Angel/Connor parallels that I missed the most obvious one.

Lawson. Law's son.

A son of the law is a person shaped by the laws, who later breaks away from them.

The lawyer. Wolfram and Hart's golden boy.

Lindsey.

Both Lindsey and Lawson wanted Angel to supply them with a reason to fight, and both were killed because of it. Because Angel only trusts people who are already fighting for the right reason.

It's amusing and hypocritical, like Spike's tendency to dismiss the possibility of a damaged person healing. In both cases, they shun people who were in the same place that they started from.

Angel didn't start fighting the good fight for the right reasons. Spike didn't start fighting with a soul.

When Spike condemns Nina and Dana and Illyria, he's condemning himself. He's been wearing costumes for so long that he doesn't know what he looks like with the coat off. In Not Fade Away, Spike confronted the part of himself that he'd been running from for so long, and saved innocence twice.

When Angel kills Lawson and Lindsey, he's killing the parts of himself that he doesn't want to acknowledge. Angel remembers every single person that he killed as Angelus -- "I'm the greatest mass murderer that you've ever met."

Angel started the fight as a way to be somebody, to be important. Lindsey was fighting to be part of the biggest battle of the ages. They aren't dissimilar reasons. That Angel later developed the want to fight merely because it was the right thing to do is a good thing. And there's no way to know if Lindsey could have reached that point, because Angel wasn't willing to take the chance.

"He'll play me fair."

But he didn't. Because Angel is not Buffy.

"She's a hero, you see. She's not like us."

The morality of killing Lindsey is roughly equal to the idea of Buffy staking Spike after Becoming. Worse, even, because Lindsey did have a soul.

Edit: After consideration, I'm replacing the above with "the idea of Buffy killing Andrew after Storyteller", or some point after that. Much closer parallel.

"I'm Angel. I beat the bad guys."

It would have been nice if Angel could have reached out the hand of friendship to Lindsey and meant it. But though Angel is many things, some of them good, he's not a nice person.

Would you like me to lie to you now?

Yes, thank you. Yes.

The good guys are always stalwart and true.

The bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats.

We always defeat them and save the day.

No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after.

Comments

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

The morality of killing Lindsey is roughly equal to the idea of Buffy staking Spike after Becoming. Worse, even, because Lindsey did have a soul.

I don't think that's apt. I think it's roughly equal to Buffy staking Spike after she knows he had a soul.

Post-Becoming, Post-Lovers Walk, Spike is still a remorseless mass murderer, who survives by eating people. How many do we think he killed during that time frame. It's what he is - until the chip makes this difficult for him. Or until he has the soul, and thus, the moral capacity not to be. That's when he's like Lindsey.

Killing Ben, perhaps, is the better comparison as well.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I thought about Ben, but Ben had a hellgod inside that would have gone after Buffy.

Thinking it over, I think that the best comparision may actually be if Buffy had killed Andrew, after he'd joined their team.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Andrew probably is a really good example.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

You've no clue how thrilled I was to think of him. Because you were right, Spike didn't fit, but Ben had something inside him that would kill, too. But there had to be someone.

Then, I remembered, "We really got away with murder. That's... kinda cool."

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Now I'm gonna wish I thought of that, particularly, since I still find him really creepy in his AtS5 appearances...

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Andrew is... complicated in a very simple way. He worships and adores and absorbs the morality of the strongest person near him.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Yeah. That creeps me out.

[sistakaren.livejournal.com]

You know what really creeps me out? In a lot of ways, Spike's the exact same way. The difference is that Spike tends to do that with people who he either loves or wants to be like. Interesante.

Vaguely related... but not

[theatre-pixie.livejournal.com]

On a completely different note, I was very fond of Illyria's question as she held the dying Wesley in her arms: "Would you like me to lie to you now?" Not only because it was addressed before while Wes was tending the wounds she'd received in the previous episode, but also because she'd just told him the glaring truth: Wes had only moments to live. And, by offering to lie to him in his last moments--the moments he had stated he was not planning to have today--she was offering the only love she knew how to give. Illyria didn't know love. She knew how to instill fear and she knew how to respect power. She also knew the beginnings of friendship and fondness. But she didn't know how to love anything except herself--which she no longer did because she despised what she'd become in this form (a nothing, a nobody)--and power. But Fred, the memories of Fred still contained in Illyria, they knew love and they knew how to show love. Illyria might just as well have said "I want to lie to you now" instead of "would you like me to lie to you now?". Because she knew that any one or all of them might/probably would die that day and she wanted to give Wes the perfect day he deserved--especially when he gave it up by choice to attend her (something Wes had not done in a while). Like it or not, Illyria found herself needing Wes and the fact that she was losing what she needed (his friendship, counsel, and guidance) made her want--in those last moments--to show him a truer version of those same qualities than she could give.

Feel free to disagree. Just my $.02.

Re: Vaguely related... but not

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, I totally agree. She was giving him the only thing that she had that she knew he wanted -- Fred, for a moment. It's achingly sweet of her. I do think, whether because of Fred's feelings or something like that, that she did cared deeply for Wesley at the end. Especially since "My love, oh, my love." is not the Fred'est thing to say.

[sistakaren.livejournal.com]

Both Lindsey and Lawson wanted Angel to supply them with a reason to fight, and both were killed because of it. Because Angel only trusts people who are already fighting for the right reason.

Hmm. I pretty much agree (especially with that last portion), but I have one quibble:

I don't know if Lindsey wanted Angel to give him a reason to fight. I mean, that may have been part of it. But it seems like he just wanted to be someone important in the battle. Throughout the episode, he kept musing about it being a big thing, a magnificently epic battle that he wanted to be a part of. So insofar as being given a pass to be finally be a part of that by Angel, then yeah, I can get behind that statement. I don't know if you'd even disagree with what I'm saying, but I'm just putting that out there.

But can I just say that the Lawson = Law's son thing is kinda brilliant? Wow. That's so awesome.

About Angel being a nice person -- I completely agree in most circumstances. But it's interesting how generous he can be with his loved ones and with those he thinks are deserving of his help, no?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

So insofar as being given a pass to be finally be a part of that by Angel, then yeah, I can get behind that statement. I don't know if you'd even disagree with what I'm saying, but I'm just putting that out there.

Heh, yeah, perhaps 'excuse' would be better than 'reason' for Lindsey.

About Angel being a nice person -- I completely agree in most circumstances. But it's interesting how generous he can be with his loved ones and with those he thinks are deserving of his help, no?

And that's the rub -- 'his loved ones and those he thinks are deserving of his help'. Everyone is good to the people that they like. Being nice means being willing to reach out to the people that you don't.

[sistakaren.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I don't think you're wrong, but I don't know if Angel isn't willing to help those who aren't in those two categories. I think by the end of the series he was focused on one goal -- taking down the senior partners and what not. So he didn't really take the time to do anything else.

It's kinda like that speech he made back in "Shells" to Knox and Illyria. I think he means and wants to help everyone. But when the chips are down, he won't. So I guess he kinda aspires to be a better person than he is, perhaps?

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I think he means and wants to help everyone. But when the chips are down, he won't. So I guess he kinda aspires to be a better person than he is, perhaps?

Oh, no doubt. That's one of those character defects he's usually really aware of. (And explains why he believes he's damned.)

And that's the rub -- 'his loved ones and those he thinks are deserving of his help'. Everyone is good to the people that they like. Being nice means being willing to reach out to the people that you don't.

I don't think it's about niceness. Angel does, in general, want to help people and alleviate their pain, just as without the soul he wanted to harm them and exacerbate their pain. Whereas, for the most part, Spike has fought to be a part of the fight and to be loved by those he fights with.

What it gets back to, IMHO, is that he sometimes lacks the strength of character to live up to his desire to be a better person. (Just as Buffy lacks the strength to kill Angelus in S2, even though she knows she should.)

On the one part he'll save a puppy, try to help Judy, or go down onto the sub. But, he'll push people away... because he lets himself get discouraged and gives up on the better standard he'd like to follow. (See S2, where he apologizes to Lindsey for not trying to help him, even as he fights him.)

On the other hand, he'll express condolences for Lilah's death, even though he hated her, because it matters to Wesley. (Whom he still harbors some resentments toward.) That's pretty big, and something not a lot of people could genuinely do.

I don't think the decision to eliminate Lindsey is about niceness or not-niceness, though it's certainly not polite. IMHO, it may well be more a case of Angel cutting corners. Not living up to a lofty principle he does believe in, out of either expediency or pragmatism.

He certainly knows, as we can sort of see in S1-2, that if he's to ever be forgiven for his litany of flaws and transgressions - then almost everybody else has to be even more forgivable than he is. Part of the reason he can stick up for Faith over Buffy, Cordy, and Wesley's objections.

Having hope for himself is part of what gives him some strength to help others, and his declining hopes tend to be what leads him to retreat to gutters, to stop risking himself on missions of mercy...

[sistakaren.livejournal.com]

Having hope for himself is part of what gives him some strength to help others, and his declining hopes tend to be what leads him to retreat to gutters, to stop risking himself on missions of mercy...

Yup. I totally agree. He's really fascinating in that way.

Heh. Not much more to add than that, I guess.

[ljash.livejournal.com]

I think he means and wants to help everyone. But when the chips are down, he won't. So I guess he kinda aspires to be a better person than he is, perhaps?

That's an interesting way to say that.

A while back a friend of mine wrote a paper on the benefits of hypocricy. He said that it shows a person who'd like to be more than what they are, and also puts the ideal out there in the world for others to see.

I didn't agree so much. I'd agree if there was someone putting forth an ideal and not living up to it and also claiming that they are flawed and can't live up to it all the time. But outright hypocricy means claiming the ideal and then doing otherwise.

Angel falls somewhere in the middle. I love him 'cause he's confused, shut off. He makes mistakes. He goes too far sometimes. Sometimes his righteousness is thrilling and inspiring. But I didn't find the end of season 5 to be so. I found that battle to be sad. Perhaps you could still call it the right thing to do, but it was destructive to everyone--except perhaps Illyria who came out more human instead of less. I am still disturbed by what happened with Lindsey. (Oddly, looking back on it I think Lindsey wouldn't have minded not being played straight if Angel himself had killed him. That was the bit that bothered him the most.)

That wasn't coherent. I guess what I mean is that it doesn't strike me well that he aspires to be a better person than he is if he's the one calling all the shots, he's the one making all the inspiring speeches, and he's the one saying, 'my way is the only way.' While also being the judge for everyone else.

Though I don't mean to speak of him as unkindly as that comes off. I like him. I feel for him. I identify with him sometimes. But he's not my hero.

[sistakaren.livejournal.com]

I guess what I mean is that it doesn't strike me well that he aspires to be a better person than he is if he's the one calling all the shots, he's the one making all the inspiring speeches, and he's the one saying, 'my way is the only way.' While also being the judge for everyone else.

Ahh. This is interesting. This is how I see it: Angel definitely wants to be a better person. But I think he doesn't believe that he can be, considering the situation that he's gotten himself into. And I don't think he's wrong.

As really nicely depicted in "Soul Purpose", Angel wants to be the one to save the day. He wants to battle the apocalypse and have that happily ever after ending. Even at the end, Angel's the one who wants to slay the dragon. He wants to be the shining knight. But I think that he feels like he can't be while also making a difference at W&H.

I wrote something about this over at TWoP, but I'll copy the pertinent info here: What makes it so interesting, though, is that (as I mentioned in "The Cautionary Tale..." thread) Angel is much further away from his ideal version of the type of person he wants to be by the end of the series. But in that way, he's kind of like Lindsey -- he realized that this ain't some fairy tale. That the situation that they're in isn't just black and white and he has to make some compromises in order to accomplish what he wants. So he ends up making a lot of pragmatic decisions that he doesn't want to make (killing Drogyn, initially giving the baby to the Fell Brethren), and giving up on things that he didn't think he deserved anyway (Shanshu). His own feelings of remorse and self-loathing kinda threathen to prevent him from aspiring to be a better person (like it did in S2's beige arc). But there's one thing that was shining brighter than ever in him by the end: his hope for the future. Not his own future, because I think that he pretty much thought it was over for him, but the future of people. And his ability to help improve that. I think this was helped by the fact that Connor was okay.

So he's probably the furthest he's ever been from personal redemption (whatever that would mean), but he's closer to having a true sense of nature of heroism as expressed in this speech to Numero Cinco. He didn't really believe what he was saying then, but I think he does now.

That pretty much sums up what I think about it. I think. Man, I'm tired and should really go to bed.... :)

[smonsterbite.livejournal.com]

IMHO, Lindsey's arc in AtS s5 is so wonky as to severely complicates attempts at analysis. But here goes, anyway.

In "Not Fade Away," Angel says to Lindsey, "You haven't listened to anything I've said - in, like, years!" in response to Lindsey asking Angel why he's fighting. In Angel's view, at least, he has tried (sometimes through discussion, sometimes through example) to teach Lindsey about "the good fight."

Lindsey betrayed Angel in s1, and we know how Angel feels about betrayal. They parted on semi-amicable terms in "Dead End." I think Lindsey coming back and trying to seize power at W&H again convinced Angel for once and for all that Lindsey was not capable of or particularly interested in redemption. Add to that the fact that this battle was all about "do as much damage as you can, while you can" and that Angel was preparing for his possible death, and Lindsey became a loose and generally evil end to tie up. (brain goes to Angel/Lindsey place... brain comes back)

If Angel had been planning to live, maybe he wouldn't have had Lindsey killed. I just don't think he trusted Lindsey to do the right thing on his own, and there would have been no one to keep him in line.

Don't get me wrong. I adore Lindsey, he's one of my favorite characters. His part in the S2 arc is entertaining and amazing. But is he good at heart or capable of coming over to the good side? Had he not returned, or had he returned to *help* Angel, I might have said yes. But he came back to kick Angel's butt and... what? we're really not sure.

This was supposed to be my .02, but it got a little out of control.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

See - I'm in love with Lindsey's death scene - so perhaps I am a bit biased (however, totally on board with Angel not always being a nice person) - I think Angel had good and valid reasons for tying up the loose end that is Lindsey and part of it is that he knows exactly what Lindsey is capable of - and without Angel around to keep it in check, he can't trust it. Think about how *obsessed* Lindsey has been for years over Angel. If Angel is dead and gone and Lindsey is rising to rule in the ashes - how long before he finds out about Connor? And we know Angel takes no chances when it comes to that...

[smonsterbite.livejournal.com]

Oh, that death scene was *excellent.* With the noir overtones, and Lorne's world weariness, and Lindsey's last words being Angel's name...

Oh yeah. Need to watch that again.

(As soon as I'm done with the Firefly DVDs.)

Good point about Connor. Angel will certainly do anything necessary and maybe a couple of slightly unnecessary things to protect him.