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butterflyIt's late, I'm up, and I started out thinking about bad characterization.
The redeemed Draco who dumps the rest of the Slytherins to hang with Harry and his friends. Weepy, fragile Daniel who needs to be rescued and protected. Bitchy, hard-nosed Buffy. Poor widdle Spike who never did anything wrong. Abused and victimized Xander. Compassionate and caring Harry Potter.
It's all about uncomplicating characters, pushing them down into smaller dimensions and fitting them into boxes. I love Xander. After much careful thought, I'd probably still say that he's my favorite Buffyverse character. And he has had some moments of true asshole-dom. And those have made me like the character better, because it complicated him, made him a person and not just a character.
In Stargate, I've utterly fallen for the amazingly beautiful, highly intuitively intelligent, and completely exasperating Doctor Daniel Jackson (which means that, for the moment, all roads of discussion lead to Daniel). Daniel Jackson has faults, but lack of nerve is not among them. Daniel's a passionate man, but he doesn't break down into tears whenever something goes wrong. He's a moral and ethical man, but that doesn't mean that he can't be stubborn and argumentative and just plain wrong on occasion.
Why reduce him? More than that, why make him something that he so very much isn't?
Daniel Jackson doesn't put up with anyone's crap without mouthing back. Daniel Jackson doesn't follow the chain of command. Daniel's probably hell to work with until you get used to him and even then, he would irritate the hell out of you on occasion. Because if Daniel's decided that he has no use for something, he'll ignore it. He decides in Children of the Gods that Jack is Jack. He then refuses to budge from his position, having decided that friendship overrules military protocol. Once he starts calling Carter 'Sam', he keeps it up. For Daniel, the personal connection matters more and he's not going to pretend to be military just because he's part of a military unit.
Jack is now a General, and Daniel treats him pretty much the same. He's snippy and pushy and, yes, he'll certainly call Jack a General when referring to him (as he did occasionally when Jack was a Colonel), but he doesn't think of Jack as a General. Jack is Jack, that's what matters, though I'm sure he was happy for the promotion for both Jack's sake and his own (oh, you just know Daniel figures that he can weedle more out of Jack than he could out of Hammond -- and he's probably right, as I doubt Hammond would have let Daniel go back to Caledonian alone if he'd been in charge during Icon. Daniel gave him the whole, "But you can trust me, Jack" routine and Jack crumpled like a wet rag.).
And another thing I love about arcs in a series is when they have a serious effect on future characterization. Daniel in season eight is a very different creature than Daniel in season five (definitely a happier one, poor kit. Season five Daniel is seriously conflicted guy.) and a vastly different guy from season one Daniel. He's grown and changed over the years, in both good and bad ways. Though I find it amusing that even with all the changes, he's still the SGC's number one DiD -- so far, in Season Eight, Carter's been tortured, possessed, and zatted, Jack's mostly just angsted over his team and his responsibilities with a side of possession and being saved from being frozen, while Daniel has been zatted twice, shot once, possessed, and had a bomb explode near him, leaving him require close care and bandages over his eyes for weeks. And Teal'c just has that hair issue.
Daniel was never willing to pretend to be military, but over time, he's become a fighter. He knows battle tactics and he can shoot and fight as effectively as any of the soldiers that we see. Season five Daniel had the knowledge and had the skills, but he wasn't happy about it. He didn't feel like he was accomplishing the kind of work that he wanted to do. In Season Six, he was energy, was knowledge in a sense, and he had all the control and none of the power. He wasn't allowed to use the power ("I'm no more qualified to play God than the gould are.") and by the end of that season had decided that that was not a choice that he could live with. Whether or not he chose to descend, he did choose to cross the line, knowing the consequences that awaited him ("Oma would stop me herself.."), because he could not live with making the choice not to act.
And he's crossing a line even as early as Abyss -- his 'consoling a friend' is clearly a trump card used to dispel the 'interfering' label. Because he is interfering -- hell, he offers to try to help Jack ascend. I personally think that he inspired Teal'c with the solution (Daniel doesn't go to Jack when he's called for, Teal'c 'inspiration' is played just the same way as his awareness of Daniel in Crystal Skull, when Daniel was out of phase, and the quickness with which he tells Jack that he didn't do anything echoes the earlier obvious twisted truth of 'consoling a friend' being the end of why Daniel was there).
One of the other things that amuses me vaguely about Abyss is the disregard that Daniel and Jack have for the Tok'ra ("I don't care about protecting the Tok'ra." and Daniel's attempts to help Jack figure out the woman deal so that Jack can tell Ba'al what's up and get out, without any regard for what Kaanan might have wished). Considering how often they've been burnt, it's understandable. I also love seeing Daniel's horror when he realizes that no one knows where Jack is or how to save him. Then, when Jack pull his trump card (asking for assisted suicide, basically), once again, the conflict from the movie springs up -- Daniel refuses to believe that suicide is a choice if there is any other option available. I'm thinking that's actually probably when he figured that he had to find a way to get Jack out of there physically. Because he says that he "can't" spring Jack or spy for him but that he "won't" kill him. Oma's rules are not what are holding him back in that -- he's saying that he will not help Jack die if there is any other way out (I can't help but remember Small Victories and the misery on Daniel's face before and after he gives the order to fire on the sub -- then Jack and Teal'c are saved, Daniel is literally speechless with joy, and after that, no, there is no way that Daniel would be willing to be the one to cause Jack's death.). So he decides that there must be some way to save Jack, because he is not going to sit there and watch who Jack is be destroyed, in any sense of the word.
And he has such faith in Jack in Abyss. He fully believes that Jack can ascend and that if anyone can escape from a heavily fortified fortress in the middle of enemy territory, it's Jack. He says Thor sees humanity's potential in Jack, and you can tell that Daniel believes it, too. Daniel believes in Jack, right from the beginning ("Jack says that we'll get them back. If anyone can, Jack can."). He decides somewhere early on (I'd say it's the movie, when they first have that amazing brain connection) that Jack is One Of The Good Ones. He's capable of being vastly disappointed in Jack, but that's partly because he has this belief that Jack is Better Than That (and, as in Shades of Gray, we see that he's right, Jack is better than that).
I don't know if I believe that the writers were intending to write a brilliant character arc for Daniel (though, honestly, I doubt it, as Daniel's ascension and return were based on... other than story reasons), but it still turned out that way. Episode after episode, Daniel learns and absorbs lessons and changes in reaction to those lessons (As Lya says, whether or not the people around him are willing to learn, Daniel always is). He questions things until he reaches the essence, he throws himself after knowledge, sometimes heedless of the consequences. And he learns from his mistakes.
And he's made peace with himself. That's always a beautiful thing to see in a character.
The redeemed Draco who dumps the rest of the Slytherins to hang with Harry and his friends. Weepy, fragile Daniel who needs to be rescued and protected. Bitchy, hard-nosed Buffy. Poor widdle Spike who never did anything wrong. Abused and victimized Xander. Compassionate and caring Harry Potter.
It's all about uncomplicating characters, pushing them down into smaller dimensions and fitting them into boxes. I love Xander. After much careful thought, I'd probably still say that he's my favorite Buffyverse character. And he has had some moments of true asshole-dom. And those have made me like the character better, because it complicated him, made him a person and not just a character.
In Stargate, I've utterly fallen for the amazingly beautiful, highly intuitively intelligent, and completely exasperating Doctor Daniel Jackson (which means that, for the moment, all roads of discussion lead to Daniel). Daniel Jackson has faults, but lack of nerve is not among them. Daniel's a passionate man, but he doesn't break down into tears whenever something goes wrong. He's a moral and ethical man, but that doesn't mean that he can't be stubborn and argumentative and just plain wrong on occasion.
Why reduce him? More than that, why make him something that he so very much isn't?
Daniel Jackson doesn't put up with anyone's crap without mouthing back. Daniel Jackson doesn't follow the chain of command. Daniel's probably hell to work with until you get used to him and even then, he would irritate the hell out of you on occasion. Because if Daniel's decided that he has no use for something, he'll ignore it. He decides in Children of the Gods that Jack is Jack. He then refuses to budge from his position, having decided that friendship overrules military protocol. Once he starts calling Carter 'Sam', he keeps it up. For Daniel, the personal connection matters more and he's not going to pretend to be military just because he's part of a military unit.
Jack is now a General, and Daniel treats him pretty much the same. He's snippy and pushy and, yes, he'll certainly call Jack a General when referring to him (as he did occasionally when Jack was a Colonel), but he doesn't think of Jack as a General. Jack is Jack, that's what matters, though I'm sure he was happy for the promotion for both Jack's sake and his own (oh, you just know Daniel figures that he can weedle more out of Jack than he could out of Hammond -- and he's probably right, as I doubt Hammond would have let Daniel go back to Caledonian alone if he'd been in charge during Icon. Daniel gave him the whole, "But you can trust me, Jack" routine and Jack crumpled like a wet rag.).
And another thing I love about arcs in a series is when they have a serious effect on future characterization. Daniel in season eight is a very different creature than Daniel in season five (definitely a happier one, poor kit. Season five Daniel is seriously conflicted guy.) and a vastly different guy from season one Daniel. He's grown and changed over the years, in both good and bad ways. Though I find it amusing that even with all the changes, he's still the SGC's number one DiD -- so far, in Season Eight, Carter's been tortured, possessed, and zatted, Jack's mostly just angsted over his team and his responsibilities with a side of possession and being saved from being frozen, while Daniel has been zatted twice, shot once, possessed, and had a bomb explode near him, leaving him require close care and bandages over his eyes for weeks. And Teal'c just has that hair issue.
Daniel was never willing to pretend to be military, but over time, he's become a fighter. He knows battle tactics and he can shoot and fight as effectively as any of the soldiers that we see. Season five Daniel had the knowledge and had the skills, but he wasn't happy about it. He didn't feel like he was accomplishing the kind of work that he wanted to do. In Season Six, he was energy, was knowledge in a sense, and he had all the control and none of the power. He wasn't allowed to use the power ("I'm no more qualified to play God than the gould are.") and by the end of that season had decided that that was not a choice that he could live with. Whether or not he chose to descend, he did choose to cross the line, knowing the consequences that awaited him ("Oma would stop me herself.."), because he could not live with making the choice not to act.
And he's crossing a line even as early as Abyss -- his 'consoling a friend' is clearly a trump card used to dispel the 'interfering' label. Because he is interfering -- hell, he offers to try to help Jack ascend. I personally think that he inspired Teal'c with the solution (Daniel doesn't go to Jack when he's called for, Teal'c 'inspiration' is played just the same way as his awareness of Daniel in Crystal Skull, when Daniel was out of phase, and the quickness with which he tells Jack that he didn't do anything echoes the earlier obvious twisted truth of 'consoling a friend' being the end of why Daniel was there).
One of the other things that amuses me vaguely about Abyss is the disregard that Daniel and Jack have for the Tok'ra ("I don't care about protecting the Tok'ra." and Daniel's attempts to help Jack figure out the woman deal so that Jack can tell Ba'al what's up and get out, without any regard for what Kaanan might have wished). Considering how often they've been burnt, it's understandable. I also love seeing Daniel's horror when he realizes that no one knows where Jack is or how to save him. Then, when Jack pull his trump card (asking for assisted suicide, basically), once again, the conflict from the movie springs up -- Daniel refuses to believe that suicide is a choice if there is any other option available. I'm thinking that's actually probably when he figured that he had to find a way to get Jack out of there physically. Because he says that he "can't" spring Jack or spy for him but that he "won't" kill him. Oma's rules are not what are holding him back in that -- he's saying that he will not help Jack die if there is any other way out (I can't help but remember Small Victories and the misery on Daniel's face before and after he gives the order to fire on the sub -- then Jack and Teal'c are saved, Daniel is literally speechless with joy, and after that, no, there is no way that Daniel would be willing to be the one to cause Jack's death.). So he decides that there must be some way to save Jack, because he is not going to sit there and watch who Jack is be destroyed, in any sense of the word.
And he has such faith in Jack in Abyss. He fully believes that Jack can ascend and that if anyone can escape from a heavily fortified fortress in the middle of enemy territory, it's Jack. He says Thor sees humanity's potential in Jack, and you can tell that Daniel believes it, too. Daniel believes in Jack, right from the beginning ("Jack says that we'll get them back. If anyone can, Jack can."). He decides somewhere early on (I'd say it's the movie, when they first have that amazing brain connection) that Jack is One Of The Good Ones. He's capable of being vastly disappointed in Jack, but that's partly because he has this belief that Jack is Better Than That (and, as in Shades of Gray, we see that he's right, Jack is better than that).
I don't know if I believe that the writers were intending to write a brilliant character arc for Daniel (though, honestly, I doubt it, as Daniel's ascension and return were based on... other than story reasons), but it still turned out that way. Episode after episode, Daniel learns and absorbs lessons and changes in reaction to those lessons (As Lya says, whether or not the people around him are willing to learn, Daniel always is). He questions things until he reaches the essence, he throws himself after knowledge, sometimes heedless of the consequences. And he learns from his mistakes.
And he's made peace with himself. That's always a beautiful thing to see in a character.
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(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 01:38 pm (UTC)DiD? Oh, wait, damsel in distress? (Dude in distress?)
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 02:20 pm (UTC)Yes.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 02:43 pm (UTC)Hee. I love that moment. "What? Interfering? Me? No no no, not me. Dude, shush, they might be watching!"
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 03:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 04:48 pm (UTC)Nice discussion, though. Hmm, maybe you should post a link to
Oh, and I bet you'd really really like Shalott's vid "Solsbury Hill", as it's all about Daniel's arc up to Meridian. Good stuff, and very moving.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 04:55 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 07:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 07:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 07:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 07:33 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 07:38 pm (UTC)And Jack's relationship with Teal'c is cool (as is Teal'c with Daniel, incidentally, not that I'm talking about Daniel. Well, I'm trying to not talk about Daniel, at least.).
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 07:39 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 07:44 pm (UTC)Well... Teal'c kinda does. Well, no. He's mostly got a Storyline (free the Jaffa), which is slightly different. Sam... really, really doesn't. Especially if we're supposed to believe that she's still stuck on O'Neill. General Hammond's pretty much steady, yeah.
Jack sorta gets one. Well, no, that kinda happened in the movie, with Daniel Saving Jack From Suicide. He has a relationship arc, though (but pretty much everyone does where Daniel is concerned, because Daniel's changing and thus people change in their interactions with him). Well, with Sam, it's more a relationship loop. And his relationship with Teal'c is rock-solid from the end of CotG to... now.
Yeah, Daniel's really the only one (damn, but that guy benefitted from getting annoyed and leaving the show, and then relenting and coming back -- that's the thing that made his character have an arc instead of it feeling like contrary writing).
Nice discussion, though. Hmm, maybe you should post a link to metagate?
Ooo! Shiny. Will try to work up the nerve to post.
Oh, and I bet you'd really really like Shalott's vid "Solsbury Hill", as it's all about Daniel's arc up to Meridian. Good stuff, and very moving.
*whimpers*
Is this vid on-line somewhere?
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 07:47 pm (UTC)Jack's relationship with aliens (with a special focus on Thor!) would also be fun to write.
Hmm. I so need to make me a Jack icon.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 08:13 pm (UTC)I don't know if Solsbury Hill is online, but you can get the East by Northeast dvd set here for the cost of a SASE. Better than online, and they shipped it to me very quickly indeed. Plus, a ton of great vids on it, including Itsy Bitsy Spider and Uninvited ::shudder::.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 08:15 pm (UTC)I'd read that post.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 08:29 pm (UTC)Which is part of why he's my favorite character (he's also part of a type that I just plain find attractive in guys -- though the one female rep of that type that comes to mind I only liked after she went through the crucible, which is when most people stopped liking her and yes, I'm talking about Willow). He changes and grows and I like that in a character.
Unlike Sam, who's pretty much gagdget-girl all the way. Sigh.
I really want to like Sam. She's even close to the type that I do prefer in women (fighter, intelligent, blonde). But she's just... her type of arrogance always feels less warranted to me than Daniel's (like Willow's always felt less warranted than Buffy's). And she's got the military thinking, which I'm not the biggest fan of -- that's probably part of why I wouldn't have thought of watching SG on my own, as the idea of watching a show based around a military operation puts me off. Through watching the show, I've gained more respect for, well, the Air Force, at least, but Sam still rubs me the wrong way.
I want to like her. I really do (and I always wanted to like Willow, because everyone else did, so I felt out of the loop). But, not so much. Definitely my least favorite member of SG-1.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 08:32 pm (UTC)The Russian thing may have more to do with his military background. I don't know enough about all that to venture a strong guess.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-10 08:47 pm (UTC)1/2) Daniel is not my favourite character in SG-1 however 1) Abyss ranks up there as one of my top... five ever SG episodes and a lot of it is the dialogue between Jack and Daniel and highlighted to me, as much as I was enjoying Jonas, Daniel was sorely missed in his interactions with Jack.
and 2) Sometimes Daniel's character is compromised by editting/MS acting IMHO - e.g. the look of sheer... blankness when Jack is about to get Goaulded in Into the Fire/Whatever-the-other-was-called with Hathor.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-11 01:57 am (UTC)They see Daniel. They fall in love with Daniel. Tragedy strikes.).
Ha! So true. The way I understand it so far, is that with Jack women immediately show interest, but they think to themselves "If only I could get him to..." or "If only he would...". And with Daniel, chicks just...go a little batty. Or develop immediate bonds despite the fact that they're already spoken for. Anyway, they just wanna grab Daniel and run.
I think Daniel and Jack both inspire a lot of loyalty in people, for different reasons, in different ways. Which is really fun to watch.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-11 04:58 pm (UTC)Yeah, I've really been liking Jonas, but the Jack-Daniel dynamic is unique in Stargate and probably my favorite one.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-13 09:51 pm (UTC)The whole thing between him and Jack is just incredible to me. I don't know if the writers wrote it or if MS and RDA created it, but it works so amazingly well. Daniel has a respect for Jack that can't be matched I think, and Jack has a similar respect that's mixed with an annoyance that Daniel expects him to be the best person he can be. He ends up loving and hating Daniel for that I suppose.
:)
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-17 02:51 am (UTC)Yeah, over the years, Daniel's learnt the best parts of being a cilivian and the best parts of knowing the military and combined them. And because he isn't military, he has the freedom to do that.
The whole thing between him and Jack is just incredible to me. I don't know if the writers wrote it or if MS and RDA created it, but it works so amazingly well. Daniel has a respect for Jack that can't be matched I think, and Jack has a similar respect that's mixed with an annoyance that Daniel expects him to be the best person he can be. He ends up loving and hating Daniel for that I suppose.
The Jack and Daniel relationship is amazing to see. Like you mentioned, they have this incredible respect and trust for each other, but it's widely marked by irritation and frustration on both sides. It's such an honest relationship, too, at its core. Neither of them will blindly follow the other, but they will trust and follow with their eyes open.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-27 07:20 am (UTC)He did--whoever did the commentary [maybe Martin Price?] on the DVD with CJ said it was Daniel who gave him the idea, and that he wrote the eppy [Abyss] solely to bring Daniel back b/c he missed him.
(no subject)
Date: 2004-08-27 08:13 pm (UTC)