A Character Thing

[butterfly]

Just one minor thing on the Sam/Jack thing -- we know how he feels. Sam knows how he feels -- that whatever they may or may not feel, it is not as important as continuing the work that they do. Jack's feelings are not a Big Mystery here.

Because yes, the very first time that the issue came up, way back in Divide and Conquer, Jack and Sam agreed to keep it in the room. Jack kept that promise (and continues to keep it by not talking about, you know, that thing that they agreed not to talk about). What else can he say? She knows his opinion on the matter. Is he supposed to tell her again? And if she doesn't accept it? How many times?

I think, given what he said in D&C, that his extreme lack of reaction to Sam's overtures is an answer.

And it's all about the instinctive reactions -- check out Jack's when Sam tells him that Pete bought a house. This is not a man pining over someone. This is a man thrilled at the idea that this might be the last uncomfortable relationship talk he has to endure with Carter. Because Jack likes Carter, quite a lot. But not enough to screw over either of their careers. He made his choice... over four years ago. It's not a matter of making that choice.

Sorry, just. Damn, I want to like Sam. And she's making it very hard to do anything but pity her.

Comments

[teaphile.livejournal.com]

My thoughts exactly.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It just... Jack's reactions make so much sense to me. I understand why he clams up.

[elz.livejournal.com]

Jack kept that promise (and continues to keep it by not talking about, you know, that thing that they agreed not to talk about).

Has he said anything about his feelings for her since S4? Because I'm totally coming up blank.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Not as far as I recall. You'd have to ask a J/S 'shipper. You could ask 'nos.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

You'd have to ask a J/S 'shipper. You could ask 'nos.

*cries about being a filthy shipper. wanders off to slash thor and teal'c.*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hee.

And dude, must Teal'c cheat, yet again? And is Thor polluting his TruePureLove for Jack by sleeping with Teal'c or is it okay because Jack is emotionally bankrupt and will never give Thor what he needs?

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I think Thor is just messing with Teal'c to get revenge because he caught Jack doing it with Sam and Daniel.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Because yes, the very first time that the issue came up, way back in Divide and Conquer, Jack and Sam agreed to keep it in the room. Jack kept that promise (and continues to keep it by not talking about, you know, that thing that they agreed not to talk about). What else can he say? She knows his opinion on the matter. Is he supposed to tell her again? And if she doesn't accept it? How many times?

She wants him to face up to it. Leaving it "in the room" is not a solution, it's a stop-gap measure. And he's creeping ever closer to retirement, so she'd like to know whether it really is safe to Move On with Pete.

And it's all about the instinctive reactions -- check out Jack's when Sam tells him that Pete bought a house. This is not a man pining over someone. This is a man thrilled at the idea that this might be the last uncomfortable relationship talk he has to endure with Carter. Because Jack likes Carter, quite a lot. But not enough to screw over either of their careers. He made his choice... over four years ago. It's not a matter of making that choice.

Sorry, just. Damn, I want to like Sam. And she's making it very hard to do anything but pity her.

Well, he's continued to show affection. He's never answered her in the negative when she's *asked* for an open answer either way.

And... he's not happy. He's shagging another woman and failing to be committed to that relationship on any real emotional level. He's hiding from Sam when she asks about Pete.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

She wants him to face up to it. Leaving it "in the room" is not a solution, it's a stop-gap measure. And he's creeping ever closer to retirement, so she'd like to know whether it really is safe to Move On with Pete.

I guess I just don't see the problem with leaving it in the room. How is that not a solution?

Well, he's continued to show affection. He's never answered her in the negative when she's *asked* for an open answer either way.

Because I really do think that he does care about her. Maybe he even loves her. But in Jack's mind, they had the chance back in D&C -- bury or deal. They chose to bury. Now, Sam wants to dig it up, but to Jack's, it's a rotting corpse that they buried four years ago. Who wants to look at a rotting corpse?

And... he's not happy. He's shagging another woman and failing to be committed to that relationship on any real emotional level. He's hiding from Sam when she asks about Pete.

I just don't see that. I just tried. And... he seemed okay. With Kerry. No, not rainbows and puppy dogs, but he already had that. He seemed upset when she broke it off. And she was all pretty and reminded me of Laira, so I actually liked her and so I was sad when she broke it off.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I guess I just don't see the problem with leaving it in the room. How is that not a solution?

I need a Buffy analogy, I think... *ponders* It's like Buffy being over Angel because he moved to LA? Or Willow being totally absolved because no one mentions that she was evil that time? Emotions don't just go away because you don't want to face them.

Oh, someone just phrased it better on AIM. It's like he thinks the room is still there waiting for him, like it's a holding pattern.

Because I really do think that he does care about her. Maybe he even loves her. But in Jack's mind, they had the chance back in D&C -- bury or deal. They chose to bury. Now, Sam wants to dig it up, but to Jack's, it's a rotting corpse that they buried four years ago. Who wants to look at a rotting corpse?

I think he's still open to it. He *knows* repression cures nothing. But he's too shit scared to act.

I just don't see that. I just tried. And... he seemed okay. With Kerry. No, not rainbows and puppy dogs, but he already had that. He seemed upset when she broke it off. And she was all pretty and reminded me of Laira, so I actually liked her and so I was sad when she broke it off.

Dude, she left him because his heart wasn't in it. Sloppily written, sure, but pretty clear that he still has Sam Issues.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I need a Buffy analogy, I think... *ponders* It's like Buffy being over Angel because he moved to LA? Or Willow being totally absolved because no one mentions that she was evil that time? Emotions don't just go away because you don't want to face them.

No, but that doesn't mean that Buffy and Angel are going to get back together or that Xander won't trust Willow again.

Plus, it strikes me more as...

Wesley loves Fred. And he pushes and pushes and people get irritated. And, eventually, he stops pushing. He starts to move on. Maybe he's not over her, but she's made her choice. He only changes his attitude again after she gives him positive reinforcement via a hot kiss. If Jack had done the equivalent to Sam at any point, I would understand her still pushing (well, maybe not after four years). But from what I can see, he hasn't given her anything.

I think he's still open to it. He *knows* repression cures nothing. But he's too shit scared to act.

I guess that I don't see the fear. I don't see Jack being scared of his feelings or of potential consequences. I see him as having made a choice and sticking to it.

Dude, she left him because his heart wasn't in it. Sloppily written, sure, but pretty clear that he still has Sam Issues.

Still has Issues. But he had Issues the moment that we met him. Jack has never been without Issues.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Okay, I agree with you to an extent. I do agree Jack has drawn that line and he's sticking with it. But...

Sam is his friend, right? If you see a friend so obviously flailing about, second-guessing herself, trying again and again to have the same conversation, unable to move on? Yeah, you talk to her. Who cares that they promised never to talk about it again? Does Hammond care? He's in D.C. Will Daniel or Teal'c care? Hell no. Do the Tok'ra? Please.

I think, given what he said in D&C, that his extreme lack of reaction to Sam's overtures is an answer.

Yes. True. But Sam is clearly not getting the message. So, what? That's it? That solves nothing. That helps nothing.

Jack doesn't want to deal with the messy emotions. You know, I get that, I really do. In fact, I totally buy it as consistent Jack characterisation. But that doesn't mean he isn't letting down a friend, one of his closest friends in the world, by letting her flail about in life and in her feelings for him -- which lead to her flailing wrt marrying/not marrying a guy she might or might not be in love with. Why doesn't Jack do everything in his power to help her?

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Yeah. He's not that supportive about Pete, really. And she keeps asking him, and all she wants is an answer. It is sad.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I actually disagree about that. I think that she wants a specific answer. She wants a 'yes'. She may not be certain she'd get one, but I don't think that a 'no' would satisfy her.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Sad part is she never even gets a 'no'. But, yeah, she probably wants a yes. Who could blame her for he is hot?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

This is the man who told his best friend on that friend's deathbed that he "maybe, might have admired him... a little."

Jack has some fucked up emotional shit going on. So, yeah, I think that not making his stance clear every time that Carter pushes is mildly shitty. But I can believe it of Jack.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

Jack has some fucked up emotional shit going on. So, yeah, I think that not making his stance clear every time that Carter pushes is mildly shitty. But I can believe it of Jack.

Heh. Okay, just so long as we're clear on how screwed up Jack can be. *pets him*

Considering I never really had a problem with the "might have admired you" thing, I don't feel (too) hypocritical that I never considered that Jack might be a jerk for not being straight with Sam. (Never even saw it from Sam's side until Nos started bringing it up. But now I have Guilt omfg that I'm not harder on Jack. Hee.)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Eh, we can all be assholes sometimes. I have way too much in common with Jack, really. I understand his "If I ignore it loudly enough, it'll go away" reaction. Like putting his hands over his ears when Carter tried to tell him that Ke'ra was Linnea.

I think that Jack was doing the very best that he could in Meridian. And that Daniel understood. So I didn't have any issues with it.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

oooh, I feel I should say while it's still in my head - when Jack does imply feelings for Sam, the side of fandom that says it's in her head? Reads it as being about Daniel. So... there's a bit of hypocrisy there, in terms of using the canon against her and then ignoring the stuff that says he *does* want her.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Aww. That was so adorable. I 'ship B/X, but B/A totally worked for me in that episode.

Sam is the cookie dough. Jack left the dough in the over years ago, because he wasn't prepared to risk putting on weight. But he still expects the cookies to be there if he wants them. He is confused when he goes back and someone else has made the cookies with the dough he thought was his.


Kerry said it, though. And I have a very hard time believing other people when they talk about the main character's emotional state. I'm going to watch Jack's reactions and what he says and doesn't say.

He don't deny...

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Sam is the cookie dough. Jack left the dough in the over years ago, because he wasn't prepared to risk putting on weight. But he still expects the cookies to be there if he wants them. He is confused when he goes back and someone else has made the cookies with the dough he thought was his.

I still don't see it.

I guess I don't think that Jack's... well, dumb enough to assume that Carter would stay in limbo for him. I think that he figured that she would either fall in love with someone else or not, and that he would deal either way.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

It's, err, there. In that he *hasn't* just absurdly locked it in a room and forgotten all about it. He still has feelings, and then, yes, he's surprised when she moves on. Swear to god, it's all there on the telly.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Where?

I mean, I can maybe fanwank the 'always' but... teammate. Friend. Fellow officer. To me, this is like refusing to give up on Teal'c in Reckoning or his stubborn refusal to admit that Daniel could be dead.

[metal-dog5.livejournal.com]

I dislike Sam so much in this episode. I thought her 'please show how upset you are about Pete and me' scene was hideous¹. Mind you I never thought she'd marry Pete. She was way too uncomfortable around him, and wincing when your lover kisses your cheek? Not good.

I've wondered if Sam would still have a yearning for Jack if she didn't know of the AU relationship(s).

¹I was also appalled by Jack's BBQ method. Pouring beer over a burnt steak will not improve the flavour mate.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

You know, I think that she would have still had a crush on him, because I think that she did like him in the first couple of seasons, quite independently. But I think that she would have gotten over it had she not had "It's meant to be" pushing from alternate universes.