Spinning in Circles...

[butterfly]

I'm tired of the cyclic fandom discussions. Feminism, racism, sexism, real person fic, slash. It all goes round and round and never stops. Part of the problem is that the observer affects the observed. We tend to collect evidence that favors the way that we already think and throw out the things that disagree.

You can make the argument that fandom is racist or sexist -- but, really, the problem still lies in the fact that much of society is racist or sexist. And most of it is subconscious. Though some of it isn't -- I still remember with horror the day my dad stopped watching an episode of television because the white woman slept with the black guy. There I was, enjoying the (hot) character interaction and my dad was seeing in colors and caring about the difference. My dad is a example of a middle-class white man who thinks that affirmative action unfairly pushed him down.

And you can say -- hey, I don't think that Joss Whedon is really a feminist -- he's a woman-hating liar -- just look at the differences between how women are treated on Buffy vs Angel. Which apparently has nothing to do with BtVS being the point of view of a strong and modern women and AtS being the point of view of a strong man who is 200+ years old and not so modern. Because his love and respect for women isn't shown, apparently, unless women are strong in a certain type of way. Because Dawn isn't good enough for the people making the arguments. Kaylee and Zoe aren't. Because Anne apparently wasn't a hell of an impressive woman by the end. Not all the strong women in Joss's universes have superpowers. And... is the word 'metaphor' meaningless now? Because if it is, I should just hang up my hat.

I'm just... tired of the same arguments. Too tired to get involved.

Comments

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean, we really need new episodes to discuss!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

New would be nice.

I'm looking forward to Serenity (and going back to find out what everyone had to say about it).

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

That's still a show I have yet to watch *g*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It is of the good.

*nods*

[bhadrasvapna.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry your fandoms are giving you such problems. You might like this limerick I composed yesterday in the car:

There once was a show about a girl who was tiny,
Whose fans just got way too whiney,
So I headed out to the black
And I'm not coming back
'Cause this place is so very very shiny.

To be perfectly honest, it is this sort of BS that really shows what humanity is, the words "sucks beyond the telling of it" often comes to mind.

Lani Parris was at the showing of Serenity in Boston last night. Something he said really struck me (so I naturally wrote it down). "Joss told me he wanted to make a sci-fi show about people who don't fit in, but with each other. That's us." Too bad the fans don't realize that. We need the conjoining spell in order to defeat Adam. When we band together, we accomplish the impossible, and that makes us mighty. Not just getting something like Serenity made, but feeling okay, not feeling so alone. What is worth destroying that feeling? I know I don't know.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

There once was a show about a girl who was tiny,
Whose fans just got way too whiney,
So I headed out to the black
And I'm not coming back
'Cause this place is so very very shiny.

Hee! That's cute.

And yeah, I don't understand why people look for points of division. People are complicated enough and relationships difficult enough. I do it myself sometimes and I still don't understand then!

[littlebutfierce]

Ironically enough (in relation to your most recent comment) I'm here from metafandom. I don't really have the energy to get into the whole debate either, but:

I don't understand why people look for points of division.

Some people don't have a choice; they are never allowed to forget how they differ from the accepted standard (of race, sex, sexual orientation, etc.). And for such people it's not a question of looking for divisive characteristics, but of having to be aware of them as a survival tactic.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

Too tired to get involved.

Too busy right now, or I might weigh in--I'm new enough in this online fan world (if not new to fandom as such), but yes, I hear you.

Not all the strong women in Joss's universes have superpowers. And... is the word 'metaphor' meaningless now? Because if it is, I should just hang up my hat.

You shouldn't--because no, it's not. (Plus, I'd hate it if you hung up your hat--it's a shiny hat, full of thought and inspiration).

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

You shouldn't--because no, it's not. (Plus, I'd hate it if you hung up your hat--it's a shiny hat, full of thought and inspiration).

Thanks. And yeah, I already feel better about it. I just wonder what it is that they're wanting to see. Because I remain amazed by the depth of the characters in Jossverse, women and men both, so it's hard for me to see where they're lacking.

[thawrecka]

See, those people making those arguments? Are lame. Because there are so many strong women in the Buffyverse and very few of them are warrior women.

I so hear you on being tired of the same arguments.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

See, those people making those arguments? Are lame. Because there are so many strong women in the Buffyverse and very few of them are warrior women.

Oh, but if a woman has superpowers, then she's not really a strong woman. Because she needs help in order to be special. And ignore all the guys who 'need' superpowers to be special (like, oh, say, Angel) and all the women who don't, because that would hurt the argument.

*sigh*

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean, and feel a similar ennui reading one more "Joss denigrates women and mary sues the male characters" post. But don't hang up your hat. I enjoy reading your posts far too much!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, the hat-hanging is such an idle threat. The Buffyverse itself is as shiny as ever. But I am starting to think that I should just defriend metafandom, as the links make me roll my eyes more often than not. Occasionally, there is an interesting discussion that I would not ordinarily see, but not most of the time.