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butterflyI watched it again and, this time, I was struck by the prologue. To be precise, how biased Bilbo's telling of the coming of Smaug is -- like, it's obviously a story that he heard directly from the dwarves, because he's so all-encompassing in his praise of Erebor. He wasn't there before Smaug came. He doesn't actually know what it was like -- but he knows what it meant to his companions and he's soaked in their feelings about it and that's what he's expressing here.
So, it's not just the greatest dwarf kingdom. Oh, no. It's "the greatest kingdom in Middle-Earth" (and you can actually contrast with what Gandalf says at the end of AUJ, where he calls it "one of the last great dwarf kingdoms" -- way more qualifiers than Bilbo puts in).
It also seemed like Bilbo doesn't say Thorin's name during the prologue. He calls him the "grandson" (and his voice softens here) and "the young dwarf prince". He does name Thrór, Smaug, and Thranduil, so it's not like he was avoiding names. But he doesn't say Thorin's name (though you hear another character -- a younger Balin? -- say it).
Yet Bilbo talks specifically about what Thorin remembers of the day Erebor fell, which implies that some fairly intimate conversations between Bilbo and Thorin on that subject.
Additionally, it doesn't seem to me as though he blames Thrór (and, by extension, Thorin) for his increasing gold-lust in the days before Smaug; he refers to it as a "sickness of the mind". He saw Thrór as ill, not as greedy. I'm going to assume he's basing that on what happens with Thorin. Especially since Bilbo drops out of the almost-lyrical way he's been speaking and says, simply, "bad things will follow".
And what Bilbo says about Thrór can be directly compared against what he says about Smaug: "Dragons covet gold with a dark and fierce desire". Interestingly, Bilbo's view of dragons is not dissimilar to the view Elrond has of the dwarves: "They hide in their mountains seeking riches. They care not for the troubles of others."
The closing line of the prologue is especially heart-breaking: "And he never forgave. And he never forgot."
Oh, Thorin. Honey.
The prologue for LotR is also biased (Galadriel's cutting little "Men who, above all else, desire power", for example) but there's more of a distance there as well. In Bilbo's narrative, there's just so much sympathy for Thorin and the dwarves of Erebor. There is zero emotional distance.
I also noticed that you can see dwarves selling goods in the city of Dale! That was neat.
Moving past the prologue, the amount everyone indulges Thorin's desire for dramatics is kinda adorable. From Gandalf being all "he's here" and Thorin posing in the doorway and making his assessment of Bilbo, to Balin telling the story of him 'defeating' Azog while the company wakes up and then stares in awe at him, all the way to Thorin's little bit of "I'm mad at you... no, wait, I'm gonna hug you now" show of dramatics with Bilbo at the end of the movie... the dwarves indulge him ridiculously. I mean, Thorin is such a drama llama and they're all... yup, that's our Thorin and we love him so. Oh, sweeties.
Man, Gandalf is trying so hard to get Thorin to stop holding grudges. SO HARD. And doomed to failure. I wonder if, looking back, he sees Thorin's inability to move beyond the past as a personal failure or if he believes that he did everything that he could do and Thorin just wouldn't have been open to his arguments no matter what.
I was curious about the pace of AUJ vs. FotR and thought to compare them but then I remembered that I don't actually own the theatrical versions of LotR, just the extendeds. Ah, well.
One of the things that I like is that, even in the small bit of Gloin that we've had so far, he's so clearly cut from a similar cloth to the Gimli we meet in FotR. I never took Gimli in LotR to be a statement about how all dwarves are supposed to be but since he's the only dwarf who gets to be a distinct character, it could come across that way. With the addition of various dwarves in The Hobbit, though, it's made very clear that Gimli is who is he because he's Gimli son of Gloin, not because that's just what all dwarves are like. Which is quite fitting. This is and should be the series that is about the dwarves and about making us sympathetic to them.
I love it. Ahh. Dwarves!
So, it's not just the greatest dwarf kingdom. Oh, no. It's "the greatest kingdom in Middle-Earth" (and you can actually contrast with what Gandalf says at the end of AUJ, where he calls it "one of the last great dwarf kingdoms" -- way more qualifiers than Bilbo puts in).
It also seemed like Bilbo doesn't say Thorin's name during the prologue. He calls him the "grandson" (and his voice softens here) and "the young dwarf prince". He does name Thrór, Smaug, and Thranduil, so it's not like he was avoiding names. But he doesn't say Thorin's name (though you hear another character -- a younger Balin? -- say it).
Yet Bilbo talks specifically about what Thorin remembers of the day Erebor fell, which implies that some fairly intimate conversations between Bilbo and Thorin on that subject.
Additionally, it doesn't seem to me as though he blames Thrór (and, by extension, Thorin) for his increasing gold-lust in the days before Smaug; he refers to it as a "sickness of the mind". He saw Thrór as ill, not as greedy. I'm going to assume he's basing that on what happens with Thorin. Especially since Bilbo drops out of the almost-lyrical way he's been speaking and says, simply, "bad things will follow".
And what Bilbo says about Thrór can be directly compared against what he says about Smaug: "Dragons covet gold with a dark and fierce desire". Interestingly, Bilbo's view of dragons is not dissimilar to the view Elrond has of the dwarves: "They hide in their mountains seeking riches. They care not for the troubles of others."
The closing line of the prologue is especially heart-breaking: "And he never forgave. And he never forgot."
Oh, Thorin. Honey.
The prologue for LotR is also biased (Galadriel's cutting little "Men who, above all else, desire power", for example) but there's more of a distance there as well. In Bilbo's narrative, there's just so much sympathy for Thorin and the dwarves of Erebor. There is zero emotional distance.
I also noticed that you can see dwarves selling goods in the city of Dale! That was neat.
Moving past the prologue, the amount everyone indulges Thorin's desire for dramatics is kinda adorable. From Gandalf being all "he's here" and Thorin posing in the doorway and making his assessment of Bilbo, to Balin telling the story of him 'defeating' Azog while the company wakes up and then stares in awe at him, all the way to Thorin's little bit of "I'm mad at you... no, wait, I'm gonna hug you now" show of dramatics with Bilbo at the end of the movie... the dwarves indulge him ridiculously. I mean, Thorin is such a drama llama and they're all... yup, that's our Thorin and we love him so. Oh, sweeties.
Man, Gandalf is trying so hard to get Thorin to stop holding grudges. SO HARD. And doomed to failure. I wonder if, looking back, he sees Thorin's inability to move beyond the past as a personal failure or if he believes that he did everything that he could do and Thorin just wouldn't have been open to his arguments no matter what.
I was curious about the pace of AUJ vs. FotR and thought to compare them but then I remembered that I don't actually own the theatrical versions of LotR, just the extendeds. Ah, well.
One of the things that I like is that, even in the small bit of Gloin that we've had so far, he's so clearly cut from a similar cloth to the Gimli we meet in FotR. I never took Gimli in LotR to be a statement about how all dwarves are supposed to be but since he's the only dwarf who gets to be a distinct character, it could come across that way. With the addition of various dwarves in The Hobbit, though, it's made very clear that Gimli is who is he because he's Gimli son of Gloin, not because that's just what all dwarves are like. Which is quite fitting. This is and should be the series that is about the dwarves and about making us sympathetic to them.
I love it. Ahh. Dwarves!
(no subject)
Date: 2013-01-20 09:23 pm (UTC)Hee yes that is a perfect description of Thorin! ♥Thorin♥
(no subject)
Date: 2013-01-21 02:07 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-01-21 06:27 pm (UTC)This is driving me crazy because I haven't read LotR or SIL in ages and I don't remember where I read it/if it's accurate, but how much did the possession of a dwarven ring of power play into this? Somehow I thought Thror had the ring along with the key and map, and Gandalf got it before Sauron did. I don't have time to reread everything! Woe. (Well, if I gave up fanfic as my recreational reading, but -- heh.) Or was it just the Arkenstone whipping up unhealthy feelings of greed and reclusion? Perhaps related: You mentioned Galadrial's zing at humans .Was that in reference to how the rings of power ensnared them?
(no subject)
Date: 2013-01-21 11:53 pm (UTC)