(no subject)

[butterfly]

In the list of Things That Amuse Me Greatly, the way point of view shades things is really close to the top. The current amusing example is the big conversation between Ten and Rose in the middle of School Reunion. Everyone gets the same words, everyone gets the same facial expressions. But when someone doesn't like Rose/the Ten&Rose relationship, that conversation means, "Rose, you aren't special. I loved other people before you and I'll love people after you. Get off your high horse."

If, on the other hand, you ship them, it means, "Yes, Rose, I have loved people before and left them. But I promise that I won't do that to you -- you're special." Basically, they're completely opposite readings. And I've seen over a dozen posts on both sides of the issue, all absolutely certain that their side is the one that canon's on. This sort of thing happens all the time in fandom, but it normally isn't quite so obvious.

In other news, Father's Day totally made me cry when I rewatched it Friday.

Comments

[redthroatedloon.livejournal.com]

That's interesting. I haven't been following the fan conversations on the episode, but I guess I'm not surprised that this may be a point of contention. I do like Rose very much, and I think she and the Doctor have a lovely relationship, but it's pretty obvious that the Doctor has a tendency to dump his companions eventually -- sometimes for good reasons (like leaving behind Sarah Jane because he was being summoned by the Time Lords), sometimes because they want to leave, and occasionally because they get killed. Certainly, that would disturb the "love is eternal" crowd. But I wouldn't want to argue with them about it -- I wouldn't hurt them for the world.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I do like Rose very much, and I think she and the Doctor have a lovely relationship, but it's pretty obvious that the Doctor has a tendency to dump his companions eventually -- sometimes for good reasons (like leaving behind Sarah Jane because he was being summoned by the Time Lords), sometimes because they want to leave, and occasionally because they get killed.

Indeed. I'm completely a Rose/Doctor shipper... but this doesn't mean that I haven't already thought about her inevitable departure. Billie Piper will almost certainly move on from her role before David Tennant and three other guys after him all get finished with the Doctor.

[voleuse.livejournal.com]

Is it splitting that way? That's interesting--I had thought it was a bit of both, myself.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, yes.

For me, my instinctive reaction to the speech was "Oh, he loves her." But that certainly doesn't mean that she's the first person that he ever loved or that she'll be the last. Still, a love can burn all the brighter for being shorter.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there's a lot of people out there who think Rose got slapped down, and who like it. I don't think she did, although I do think she got a dose of reality that she sorely needed. I took what the Doctor said to her as the second version, and only started doubting myself when I started reading other people's posts. (I have begun a policy of backing out of posts that refer to Rose as "special" with the word spelled deliberately incorrectly - speyshul, speshul, etc. - as this tends to make me seethe.)

Of course, I think there's also been a perception out there that the showrunners are putting for the idea that Rose is special, although I have no idea how true this is, as I haven't seen most of the commentary from the producers. This naturally annoys Whovians who are fans of previous Companions, so they like to see "proof" on-screen that it's not so.

[embitca.livejournal.com]

I'm not that familiar with the older Doctor Who series, but doesn't the doctor usually shed his latest companion when he regenerates? I was under the impression that this was unusual for the companion to remain the same through a renegeration. If that's true, I guess it would make her special.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Actually, one of the few things I do know about old Doctor Who is that Sarah Jane started with the Third Doctor, ended up with Four and stayed with him a year or more after that. *shrug* I have no notion how common this was otherwise.

[redthroatedloon.livejournal.com]

Actually, not really. Sarah Jane, for example, started in, I believe, the last year of Pertwee's Doctor #3, and stayed with the Baker's Doctor #4 for at least two years (and, in fact, I think she's better known as #4's companion). It would actually make sense for him to shed his companions -- since he usually takes on a different character -- but I don't offhand know of any time when he actually did.

The real difference, as far as I can see, between the relationship of Rose with her Doctor(s) is that the possibility of their sleeping together is made much more, well, possible. In fact, it's obvious that the writers/directors are actually teasing us with that, whereas it would never have been hinted about earlier -- largely, I think, because of Doctor Who's previous status as a children's show. Definitely not acceptable.

That didn't stop many of the teenagers and adults watching (myself included) from assuming that Doctor #5 was probably sleeping with Sarah Jane -- I mean, really, two lively adults having rather hair-raising adventures and then retiring alone to the Tardis? I mean, really....

[redthroatedloon.livejournal.com]

Actually, in that last paragraph, I meant Doctor #4. Although #5 was even younger, and actually chosen to be attractive. However, he usually rode with several companions -- I suppose the producers felt it was safer that way. *g*

[moojja.livejournal.com]

Not always true but often. Logistically that makes sense. Since the companions are cast for their chemistry with the actor who plays the Doctor. When the main actor changes, the companions are usually recast.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I think there's also been a perception out there that the showrunners are putting for the idea that Rose is special, although I have no idea how true this is, as I haven't seen most of the commentary from the producers. This naturally annoys Whovians who are fans of previous Companions, so they like to see "proof" on-screen that it's not so.

Yeah, pretty much that's it. Rose is perfectly fine on her own merits, it's just that inviting comparison does not always go in her favour and it feels like cheating that they want us to think of her as something special. calapine calls this Media!Rose and argues that Media!Rose is the main reason old skool folk often find her annoying beyond what she actually does on-screen. Not, I'd say, that there aren't plenty of reasons to dislike her and that's true of any fictional character. But mostly, yeah. Rose is, for many, an average character sold as something close to perfect and it's irritating as all get-out.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I have begun a policy of backing out of posts that refer to Rose as "special" with the word spelled deliberately incorrectly - speyshul, speshul, etc. - as this tends to make me seethe.

Oh, yes, so have I. Though that isn't quite as bad as the person who consistently types her name as "Wose", which strikes me as so very intensely immature.

I think that the showrunners are really fond of Rose, definitely. But they were also much with the pimping of Jack, and they showed an incredibly soft touch towards Sarah Jane. For me, I think that that only shows that the showrunners like the characters that they're writing. RTD very clearly absolutely adores the old show.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Though that isn't quite as bad as the person who consistently types her name as "Wose", which strikes me as so very intensely immature.

Ack! Oh, that's horrible. And of course, they're using that to indicate her supposed immaturity (not to say that she isn't, but that person probably finds her far more so than I do).

For me, I think that that only shows that the showrunners like the characters that they're writing. RTD very clearly absolutely adores the old show.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, she's the one they have right now. Of course they love her and want to promote her. They loved on Sarah Jane while they had her; I'm sure they'd do the same for any companions they brought back. I doubt (although I can hardly say for certain) that they've been actively comparing Rose to previous companions.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, she's the one they have right now. Of course they love her and want to promote her. They loved on Sarah Jane while they had her; I'm sure they'd do the same for any companions they brought back. I doubt (although I can hardly say for certain) that they've been actively comparing Rose to previous companions.

And it'd be silly to purposefully talk Rose down to keep the older companions up on pedestals. I'm sure that they'll be just as excitable about whoever the new companion is after Rose (though they might not be all 'soulmate!' about her/him/it. Or they might. Who knows?).

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

(One day we will both love the same character and on that day the world will end.)

I'd go with "Yes, Rose, I have loved people before and left them. And will do so again. But I promise that I won't do that to you. I am lying to both of us on this one. You're special. Sarah was special too. This does not bode well, but it's not like I can or will admit to either of us that once Billie Piper jumps ship you'll never be seen again though I might mention you occasionally while doing hot UST with the companion after you. Possibly my epiphany this week should have been that I should maybe stop telling people how special they are, because I vastly underestimate my own inability to go look them up later on."

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

(So, we can expect to start agreeing in roughly five billion years, then?)

Wow, that's an incredibly complicated look! Hee.

I don't actually disagree with any particular, I just think that Rose is special in a more... romantic way than Sarah Jane was. But even that, I chalk up partly to being because the Doctor is just getting more romantic, period. He's kissed people in his last three incarnations, after all.

Amusingly enough, part of the reason that I like Rose so much is because she manages to remind me of both Buffy and Xander.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

(Unless the giant ants get to us first.)

Time Lords have very eloquent eyebrows, maybe. *nods*

I am of the camp that says that School Reunion's up-emoted Doctor/Sarah interactions (which, oh, so can be read as romantic in a 'former lovers' sort of way) are a cue to assume that everything we saw in the Olden Days was as touchy-feely as it is now. Because Sarah does not go "Omg, you've gone all handsy! Hands in new places!" and I think that emotional-retcon idea makes a lot of sense because, really, if we're having to assume that in-story the monsters and whatnot always looked convincing* I think it's a good way of redressing the balance in terms of interpreting the old canon with an eye to the fact that telly was less emotive then.** Also the Doctor managed to spawn a grandchild so presumably he occasionally got jiggy with it back in the day.


Amusingly enough, part of the reason that I like Rose so much is because she manages to remind me of both Buffy and Xander.

*thinks* I can see that.



*Note: One reason I love Sarah is that time she mistook an actual quarry for an alien planet since those do tend to look suspiciously like quarries in old skool DW.
**Other note: Like, for instance, my love of dodgy old British sci-fi incorporates Quatermass and it's something that is very much 'of it's time' and so requires a fair bit of mental gymnastics to pretend that the non-naturalistic acting and restrained dialogue really does convey stuff like fear and love and whatnot.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I am of the camp that says that School Reunion's up-emoted Doctor/Sarah interactions (which, oh, so can be read as romantic in a 'former lovers' sort of way) are a cue to assume that everything we saw in the Olden Days was as touchy-feely as it is now. Because Sarah does not go "Omg, you've gone all handsy! Hands in new places!" and I think that emotional-retcon idea makes a lot of sense because, really, if we're having to assume that in-story the monsters and whatnot always looked convincing* I think it's a good way of redressing the balance in terms of interpreting the old canon with an eye to the fact that telly was less emotive then.** Also the Doctor managed to spawn a grandchild so presumably he occasionally got jiggy with it back in the day.

So, you're also of the camp that Susan was really and truly his grandchild, then. Which seems to me to be the more sensible camp, as I just watched An Unearthly Child and they are so very not going for 'adoptive title' there.

Based entirely on The Five Doctors and the bit where SJS leaves, I buy that she had a thing for him that was romantic-ish. Didn't see that part of it back from him, though (even in SR, he seemed delighted in a way that didn't strike me as flirty in the way that, say, Nine was with Jabe). He clearly adored her, though, and was intensely proud of her for being all investigative journalism and working for the Sunday Times and all.

*Note: One reason I love Sarah is that time she mistook an actual quarry for an alien planet since those do tend to look suspiciously like quarries in old skool DW.

Hee. That's great! Do you remember when that happened? Is the story available somewhere?

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

So, you're also of the camp that Susan was really and truly his grandchild, then. Which seems to me to be the more sensible camp, as I just watched An Unearthly Child and they are so very not going for 'adoptive title' there.

Word. I think it's a far more interesting backstory that way, if there's some romantic other half we never saw and children and whatnot.


Didn't see that part of it back from him, though (even in SR, he seemed delighted in a way that didn't strike me as flirty in the way that, say, Nine was with Jabe). He clearly adored her, though, and was intensely proud of her for being all investigative journalism and working for the Sunday Times and all.

For me it's like they're past all the flirting and they're more like ex-lovers reunited aaaaages later and they have this closeness and there's love but they don't actually want to get back together. I think I got it from the way Sarah is treated the same as Rose and knowing that I'm meant to be reading the latter as a romantic interest. An old flames, sort of thing, it felt like. Also it does make sense for her to be among the ones where there's implied sexual attraction, because she's Sarah and they were bestestest friends.


Hee. That's great! Do you remember when that happened? Is the story available somewhere?

I think it's actually Hand of Fear, which is the one where she leaves. Cos that one has a bit in a quarry.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Word. I think it's a far more interesting backstory that way, if there's some romantic other half we never saw and children and whatnot.

Right, like he had this whole life when he was younger. Fell in love, had kids, had at least one grandkid and then decided to do the Elder Parent World Tour Thing. My mom's doing that (she hasn't got grandkids, mind), seeing all sorts of countries now that she's not holding down a home for her kids. And then Barbara and Ian got him started on the whole 'interfering with the universe' lifestyle and he never really stopped moving after that. Not until the Time War came and he had to rethink everything all over again, because he's not the rebel against the authority anymore -- he's the only one with the knowledge to be the authority.

But because of the Ninth Doctor and the way he lived and died, I'm all caught up in the symbolism of regeneration, of starting a new stage of life, literally becoming a person to suit his situation.

For me it's like they're past all the flirting and they're more like ex-lovers reunited aaaaages later and they have this closeness and there's love but they don't actually want to get back together. I think I got it from the way Sarah is treated the same as Rose and knowing that I'm meant to be reading the latter as a romantic interest. An old flames, sort of thing, it felt like. Also it does make sense for her to be among the ones where there's implied sexual attraction, because she's Sarah and they were bestestest friends.

I've heard that he calls her his best friend (very best friend?). Plus, he did send her a robot dog afterwards, even if he never did check back in. And if the last time he went to Gallifrey with humans, they got their memories all wiped, I can definitely understand why he couldn't take Sarah Jane. And once he'd actually been and gone, he'd probably already convinced himself that Sarah, clever girl that she was, had taken to her new life like a duck to water. So, he sent her something to remember him by and got distracted by the next shiny thing. Because he did care, but he's not the sort who keeps still.

I think that I've managed to talk myself into the whole Doctor/Sarah Jane thing now. Huh.

Hee. That's great! Do you remember when that happened? Is the story available somewhere?

I think it's actually Hand of Fear, which is the one where she leaves. Cos that one has a bit in a quarry.

It might be a good idea to watch more than the last six minutes, then. Which I was totally planning to do anyway. At some point.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Right, like he had this whole life when he was younger. Fell in love, had kids, had at least one grandkid and then decided to do the Elder Parent World Tour Thing.

I am confused on the issue of why they left Gallifrey. Mostly because the canon is. *flaily*


Not until the Time War came and he had to rethink everything all over again, because he's not the rebel against the authority anymore -- he's the only one with the knowledge to be the authority.

Oh, I so want someone in the new series to point out the irony that the only one left is probably the least representative of them. Because it's beautiful somehow.


But because of the Ninth Doctor and the way he lived and died, I'm all caught up in the symbolism of regeneration, of starting a new stage of life, literally becoming a person to suit his situation.

I reckon that one's arguable in a way, with the theory that each Doctor has a fatal flaw that kill him in the end. *thinks* Two's a reaction to One being not that great with the youngsters, Three's like an attempt to make someone who might not hate the Time Lords so much, Four's the anarchist coming out again, Five is someone who looks vulnerable and might not have people treat him as invincible and angst-free, Six is sick of being treated as vulnerable and angsty and hides that side of himself as much as possible, Seven's... I dunno, err... less quiet after people called the last one boorish, Eight's a big girl puppy who doesn't manipulate so openly, and then BOOM Time War. Oh, and Romana essentially turns into the Doctor. What an odd woman.


I've heard that he calls her his best friend (very best friend?). Plus, he did send her a robot dog afterwards, even if he never did check back in.

There's them what say he said "breast friend" but I can remember which that was in. Maybe it's a lie like "sexual air supply" and "stop buggering me" (I love my cheap can't-afford-another-take fandom yay!)


And if the last time he went to Gallifrey with humans, they got their memories all wiped, I can definitely understand why he couldn't take Sarah Jane. And once he'd actually been and gone, he'd probably already convinced himself that Sarah, clever girl that she was, had taken to her new life like a duck to water. So, he sent her something to remember him by and got distracted by the next shiny thing. Because he did care, but he's not the sort who keeps still.

*sniffle* I think he's probably (almost certainly) over-optimistic about how well they'll settle back in.


I think that I've managed to talk myself into the whole Doctor/Sarah Jane thing now. Huh.

Heh!

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I am confused on the issue of why they left Gallifrey. Mostly because the canon is. *flaily*

Based entirely on An Unearthly Child, I blame Susan. And she was the first of the two of them who fell in love with Earth and humans, so I blame her for that part of him as well.

Not until the Time War came and he had to rethink everything all over again, because he's not the rebel against the authority anymore -- he's the only one with the knowledge to be the authority.

Oh, I so want someone in the new series to point out the irony that the only one left is probably the least representative of them. Because it's beautiful somehow.

Well, Finch sorta did, though he did it by saying that the Time Lords, in general, were known for being boring as anything, but the Doctor (the only survivor) is actually kinda interesting, which is new and exciting and brain-keeping-worthy.

But because of the Ninth Doctor and the way he lived and died, I'm all caught up in the symbolism of regeneration, of starting a new stage of life, literally becoming a person to suit his situation.

I reckon that one's arguable in a way, with the theory that each Doctor has a fatal flaw that kill him in the end. *thinks* Two's a reaction to One being not that great with the youngsters, Three's like an attempt to make someone who might not hate the Time Lords so much, Four's the anarchist coming out again, Five is someone who looks vulnerable and might not have people treat him as invincible and angst-free, Six is sick of being treated as vulnerable and angsty and hides that side of himself as much as possible, Seven's... I dunno, err... less quiet after people called the last one boorish, Eight's a big girl puppy who doesn't manipulate so openly, and then BOOM Time War. Oh, and Romana essentially turns into the Doctor. What an odd woman.

Does she? I'm quite interested to, at some point, meet the first Romana. I wonder if I'll like her better (because I like Romana II, except her looks throw me off. She has haughty eyebrows -- I can't quite get past them).

I've heard that he calls her his best friend (very best friend?). Plus, he did send her a robot dog afterwards, even if he never did check back in.

There's them what say he said "breast friend" but I can remember which that was in. Maybe it's a lie like "sexual air supply" and "stop buggering me" (I love my cheap can't-afford-another-take fandom yay!)

Oh, that's amusing. Sounds like the cheapness of the old Doctor Who did lead to some very interesting fannish activity.

And if the last time he went to Gallifrey with humans, they got their memories all wiped, I can definitely understand why he couldn't take Sarah Jane. And once he'd actually been and gone, he'd probably already convinced himself that Sarah, clever girl that she was, had taken to her new life like a duck to water. So, he sent her something to remember him by and got distracted by the next shiny thing. Because he did care, but he's not the sort who keeps still.

*sniffle* I think he's probably (almost certainly) over-optimistic about how well they'll settle back in.

Indeed. He seems to have romantized human life a bit (going by Nine's "I've never had a life like that" comment in Father's Day). Like, not in the way that he actually wants a life like that (because that might mean staying in the same place long enough to eat two meals there), but that he thinks that his companions will find it just as wonderful and grand as traveling with him was.

And on a different note, it is so odd trying to wade into the Doctor Who fandom. It's such an enormous place, filled with so much canon. Plus, there's the Brit factor, which makes me blink sometimes and wonder how much I'm missing because I haven't got the cultural background. It's more than an entire new world -- it's an entire new universe, and the maps are all in a slightly different language from the one I'm used to reading. Fascinating and a little bit terrifying.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Based entirely on An Unearthly Child, I blame Susan. And she was the first of the two of them who fell in love with Earth and humans, so I blame her for that part of him as well.

*nod* Makes sense. The original backstory's something like 'oh noes! we had to fleeeee!' (I'm sure "exiles" is thrown around) and then it transpires that he just legged it to interfere (which does not entirely fit with what we see of One at the start there) and eventually I'm meant to believe that the Hartnell Doctor nicked a TARDIS for a laugh or something. *handwave*


Well, Finch sorta did, though he did it by saying that the Time Lords, in general, were known for being boring as anything, but the Doctor (the only survivor) is actually kinda interesting, which is new and exciting and brain-keeping-worthy.

I was pleased that someone finally said what they were actually like. I'd felt a wee bit of a context-lack on that one.


Does she? I'm quite interested to, at some point, meet the first Romana. I wonder if I'll like her better (because I like Romana II, except her looks throw me off. She has haughty eyebrows -- I can't quite get past them).

She becomes a lot more like him, but it might just be the timing of it that makes it seem like its the regeneration, cos we don't know when that happened, as such. Horns of Nimon she does most of the Doctoresque stuff and there's that time she wore his clothes so... yeah. Both Romanas are a bit aloof in a Time Lord way but the first one is the more beautiful and Romana II has the edge in terms of a bit more force of personality. *goes into epic denial about Romana being dead*


Oh, that's amusing. Sounds like the cheapness of the old Doctor Who did lead to some very interesting fannish activity.

It's annoying when there's a scene that you just know needed that one more take, or when the ambition is smothered by having a budget of fivepence, but then there's lovely moments like people blatantly fluffing lines ("Spack off!" being one) and the bits where someone is obviously looking at the floor manager to see if they should continue even though somone's missed their cue. So when the CGI Slitheen move nothing like the ones that are people in big bulky costumes, it makes me vaguely happy.


Indeed. He seems to have romantized human life a bit (going by Nine's "I've never had a life like that" comment in Father's Day).

Word. And also sort of fluctuates between despising that sort of normal life and going all misty about it. He seems to think that if you show people a bit of excitement they'll be okay with going home. And maybe a lot of them are, but I don't see how they could not miss it.


And on a different note, it is so odd trying to wade into the Doctor Who fandom. It's such an enormous place, filled with so much canon. Plus, there's the Brit factor, which makes me blink sometimes and wonder how much I'm missing because I haven't got the cultural background.

I can usually blag through American fandoms on how much telly I've watched in my life, but there's still references to things that just fly over my head and I go "what? who the hell is this gilligan person and how is it relevant?"