Doctor Who: in which the Doctor was too polite to... wait, what? Too polite?

[butterfly]

I encountered an interpretation of the tenth Doctor/Rose relationship that I found baffling. Not just that it's not my personal interpretation, because that's one of those subjective things and whatnot, but a viewpoint for which I cannot see any possible canonical evidence and do see a preponderance of evidence that disproves it.

Apparently, there is a school of belief that states that, while the ninth Doctor was in love with Rose, the tenth Doctor was not and was humoring Rose throughout S2, was glad to be rid of her in S3, and wasn't thrilled to see her in "The Stolen Earth". To which I say, "Bwuh, huh?"

I have three main categories of evidence which I will show you to further illustrate why I do not understand this point of view at all.

Exhibit A. Tennant's Acting

Admittedly, facial expressions can be subjective, but I'm very confused that there is any universe where these expressions belong to a man who is not in love and is, instead, merely humoring someone (almost all screencaps courtesy time and space.co.uk; John Smith's journal and Ten II and Rose laughing are ones that I grabbed):

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

(Brief aside: there is the dropping of Sarah Jane's hand like a hot potato that he does in "School Reunion" that cracks me up every single time. I will show you:

 
 
 

Look at where Rose is looking! And then the Doctor is all: "Me, holding another woman's hand? I wouldn't dream of it! Look how completely empty my hand is of any other woman's hand!" Seriously, it cracks me up. Also, check out Sarah Jane's face -- hilarious.).

This would be the Doctor talking about having to live on after Rose has died:

Matching shots of separation from "The Girl in the Fireplace" (note the mirroring of Mickey and Reinette):

  

In-joke gleefulness:

I'm just going to say this once: when she is in emotional pain, he takes her home to see her mother.

Some joy directed toward Rose at the beginning of TIL:

 

His reaction to seeing Rose without her face:



And she's back! Yay!

 

After Rose makes a joke, he looks over at her with this expression:



 


 
 

 

And look how incredibly happy the Doctor is to finally get rid of Rose:

 

It's funny, though, I don't think that I've ever looked that way when I was happy.

I just find it very hard to believe that this is the reaction of a man seeing a girl that he was glad to get rid of (as opposed to, say, the girl that he's madly in love with):

  
  
  

Even after being shot by a Dalek, he's happy because she's there:



And just more gleeing on Rose:

 
 
 

Exhibit B. The Text

Various quotes from the show that add to my confusion regarding this particular viewpoint:

Rose: "Can you change back?"
Doctor: "Do you want me to?"
Rose: "Yeah."
Doctor: "Oh."
Rose: "Can you?"
Doctor: "No."
(Children in Need special)

compare to:
Joan: "Could you change back?"
Doctor: "Yes."
Joan: "Will you?"
Doctor: "No."
(3x09 - "Family of Blood". He's not afraid to be blunt.)

Rose: "And what about you? What are you gonna do next?"
Doctor: "Well.. back to the TARDIS... same old life."
Rose: "On- on your own?"
Doctor: "Why, don't you want to come?"
Rose: "Well, yeah."
Doctor: "Do you, though?"
Rose: "Yeah!"
Doctor: "I just thought... 'cos I changed..."
Rose: "Yeah, I... I thought, 'cos you changed... you might not want me anymore."
Doctor: "Oh, I'd love you to come!"
("The Christmas Invasion" -- my guess is, the read of this scene for the above interpretation would be that the Doctor is lying.

To me, though, this scene actually reads like a clear textual refutation of the theory. I'm baffled that anyone could listen to the words of the scene, look at David Tennant's face, and think that he's lying to Rose. Although, we actually don't have to guess what a lying Doctor looks like, because we have a canonical example of him flat-out lying to a companion:



That would be the Doctor pretending to Martha that Gallifrey is still around and kicking. You can practically see the words 'Is she buying it?' in his eyes.)

Rose: "That was our first date."
Doctor: "We had chips!"
(2x01 - "New Earth")

compare to:
Martha: "And then travel all the way across the universe just to ask me out on a date..."
Doctor: "Stop it."
(3x01 - "Smith and Jones")

We have his focus and intensity when Rose has been taken over by Cassandra and we also have him telling us one of the key things he identifies with Rose:
Doctor: "These people are dying and Rose would care."

The Doctor and Rose are so determined to protect each other that Cassandra gets left with no options.

Rose: "I thought you and me were... but obviously I got it wrong. I've been to the year five billion, right, but this... this is really seeing the future. You just leave us behind. Is that what you're going to do to me?"
Doctor: "No. Not to you."
Rose: "But Sarah Jane... you were that close to her once, and now... you never even mention her. Why not?"
Doctor: "I don't age. I regenerate. But humans decay. You wither and you die. Imagine watching that happen to someone you-"
Rose: "What, Doctor?"
Doctor: "You can spend the rest of your life with me. But I can't spend the rest of mine with you. I have to live on. Alone. That's the curse of the Time Lords."
(2x03 - "School Reunion")

compare to:
Jack: "You abandoned me.
Doctor: "Did I? Busy life, moving on."

and:
Martha: "But the thing is, how come you left him behind, Doctor?"
Doctor: "I was busy."
Martha: "Is that what happens, though? Seriously? Do you just get bored with us one day and disappear?"
Jack: "Not if you're blonde."
Martha: "Oh, she was blonde? What a surprise!"
Doctor: "You two! We're at the end of knowledge itself and you're busy... blogging!"
(3x10 - "Utopia". Seriously, the guy is not very nice. He's a Grade A Asshole to Jack for a lot of "Utopia".)

Mickey: "Go on then. No choice, is there? You can only chase after one of us and it's never going to be me, is it?"
(2x05 - "Rise of the Cybermen" -- spoken to the Doctor about Rose. Yeah... it kinda speaks for itself, this line. Poor Mickey. Always the bridesmaid.)

Doctor: "They took her face and just chucked her out and left her in the street. And, as a result, that makes things... simple. Very, very simple. Do you know why?"
D.I. Bishop: "No..."
Doctor: "Because now, Detective Inspector Bishop, there is no power on this Earth that can stop me!"
(2x07 - "The Idiot's Lantern" -- and then he proceeds to bypass the 'no second chances' rule and go straight to 'capture and kill')

Doctor: "If they get back in touch... if you talk to Rose... just tell her... tell her I... Oh, she knows."
(2x09 - "The Satan Pit")

Doctor: "So that's the trap. Or the test or the final judgement, I don't know. But if I kill you, I kill her. But that implies, in this big grand scheme of gods and devils, that she's just a victim. Well, I've seen a lot of this universe. I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be gods -- out of all that -- out of that whole pantheon -- if I believe in one thing... just one thing... I believe in her!"
(2x09 - "The Satan Pit")

Doctor: "How long are you going to stay with me?"
Rose: "Forever."
(2x12 - "Army of Ghosts" -- I have to say, him smiling at this moment (or, in fact, asking at all) is a really odd thing to do if he doesn't want Rose around.)

Doctor: "There's one tiny gap in the universe left, just about to close. And it takes a lot of power to send this projection, I'm in orbit around a supernova. I'm burning up a sun just to say goodbye."
(2x13 - "Doomsday" -- awful lot of trouble to go to if he was glad to be rid of her.)

Doctor: "Here you are. Living a life day after day. The one adventure I can never have."
Rose: "Am I ever going to see you again?"
Doctor: "You can't."
Rose: "What are you going to do?"
Doctor: "Oh, I've got the TARDIS. Same old life. Last of the Time Lords."
Rose: "On your own?"
The Doctor nods.
Rose: "I lo- I love you."
Doctor: "Quite right, too. And I suppose... if it's my last chance to say it... Rose Tyler..."
(2x13 - "Doomsday")

Then we have the fact that Rose's shirt from "New Earth" is just randomly lying around in the console room in "The Runaway Bride".

Doctor: "I spent Christmas Day just over there, the Powell Estate. With this... family. My friend, she had this family. Well, they were... still... gone now."
("The Runaway Bride" -- and just add the rest of his general angst-related stuff, like flashing back to Rose at the reception and the way he says her name at the end... for someone he wasn't in love with, he sure is making a big fuss over losing her.)

Doctor: "Well, sometimes I have guests. I mean... some friends, travelling alongside. I had - There was recently a friend of mine. Rose, her name was, Rose. And... we were together."
(3x01 - "Smith and Jones" -- why humor Rose when she isn't there to hear him?)

Doctor: "There's something I'm missing, Martha. Something really close, staring me right in the face and I can't see it. Rose would know. That friend of mine, Rose. Right now, she'd say exactly the right thing."
(3x02 - "The Shakespeare Code")

Doctor: "The naming won't work on me."
Lilith: "But your heart grows cold. The north wind blows and carries down the distant... Rose."
Doctor: "Oh, big mistake 'cos that name keeps me fighting!"
(3x02 - "The Shakespeare Code")

Then, in "Gridlock", he really gets into his series 3 depressive mope with: "What if there's no help coming, not ever? What if there's nothing? Just the motorway, with the cars going round and round and round, never stopping? Forever?" He mentions that the Daleks always survive while "I lose everything." He talks about how "a longer life isn't always a better one. In the end, you just get tired."

There's the oddness of this screencap, if you believe that the tenth Doctor didn't love Rose:

Note the 'perfect Rose' written on the page on the left side of the screen.

Doctor: "No one's ever meant to have that power. If a Time Lord did that, he'd become a god... a vengeful god. But she was human. Everything she did was so human. She brought you back to life. But she couldn't control it -- she brought you back forever. That's something, I suppose. The final act of the Time War was life."
(3x10 - "Utopia")

Donna: "The thing is, Doctor... no matter what's happening - and I'm sure it's bad, I get that. But... Rose is coming back. Isn't that good?"
Doctor: "Yeah."

Donna: "It's like... an outer-space Facebook!"
Doctor: "Everyone except Rose..."

Doctor: "There's another signal coming through, there's someone else out there. Hello? Can you hear me? Rose?"
(4x12 - "The Stolen Earth")

Rose: "And... you're still you?"
Doctor: "I'm still me."
They hug. For a while.

Doctor: "That's me. When we first met. And you made me better. And now you can do the same for him."
Rose: "But he's not you."
Doctor: "He needs you. That's very me."

Doctor (Ten II): "I'm part-human. Specifically, the aging part. I'll grow old and never regenerate. I've only got one life, Rose Tyler. I could spend it with you... if you want."
Rose: "You'll grow- you'll grow old at the same time as me?"
Doctor (Ten II): "Together."
(4x13 - "Journey's End")

Then, you know, there's the whispering and the kissing bits.

Exhibit C. The Doctor's Personality

And, of course, this entire interpretation rests on the assumption that the Doctor is too polite to break up with the girl that he's fallen out of love with. To which I say... seriously? I love and adore the Doctor but... he's not a nice guy. He doesn't humor people for very long at all (and even then, he tends to be very bad at it). There are numerous examples of his rudeness throughout series 2, 3, and 4 ("Oh, I know what it's like. It's like- It's like when you fancy someone and they don't even know you exist. That's what it's like." from "The Sound of the Drums"). If he'd fallen out of love with Rose, he would not have been tactful about it.

I can only believe that there is, in fact, another version of the show that been put out since series 2 started. One where none of the screencaps from Exhibit A exist, none of the dialogue from Exhibit B was spoken, and the Doctor is a completely different person. This may very well explain everything disparate fan groups have argued about since S2 of New Who aired -- there actually have been two versions of the show. In one of them, the Doctor was clearly in love with Rose Tyler, as exhibited by Tennant's acting, the dialogue given to the actors, and the expression of the personality traits of the characters, specifically the Doctor.

In the other show, the Doctor was only in love with Rose until he regenerated, at which point Daniel Craig took over as Tenth Doctor and he, sadly, had no romantic chemistry with Billie Piper at all. And yay, verily, Russell mourned mightily and thought wistfully and often of the Ship That Never Sailed.

Doesn't that just explain it all?

Of course, if we believe that there's only been one version of DW airing since New Who started up, then I am left confused.

As an aside, none of the above evidence takes into account the clearly stated intentions of the writers, actors, directors, and the composer, all of whom have said that the story of the Doctor and Rose is a love story (ex. David Tennant: "...if Rose is over there, and she's all you want in the universe and you've... you're desperate to get to her, you want to be able to run flat-out, don't you?"). The story should (and does) stand on its own.

But that only adds to my personal confusion in the matter. I can understand not liking Doctor/Rose -- I dislike John/Aeryn (Farscape), which makes me part of, like, the smallest fandom minority ever. I can understand thinking that their relationship is unhealthy -- again, I point to my feelings on J/A or Sam/Jack (Stargate: SG-1). I can understand thinking that they can't work out in the long run -- see my feelings on Buffy and any/all of her canon boyfriends (Buffy the Vampire Slayer). I can understand wishing that they weren't canon -- that's precisely how I feel about Harry/Ginny (Harry Potter). I can understand lots of things.

This, however, I just don't understand.

Comments

[larissa-j.livejournal.com]

Apparently, there is a school of belief that states that, while the ninth Doctor was in love with Rose, the tenth Doctor was not and was humoring Rose throughout S2, was glad to be rid of her in S3, and wasn't thrilled to see her in "The Stolen Earth". To which I say, "Bwuh, huh?"

*dies laughing* That's a good one. That is the best joke yet in New Who

Oh wait, you're serious. Well, I'll have to come back later and reply because I've got to leave for work but, um, wow. That's unique and bizarrely out of touch with reality.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yes. I spent about an hour blinking in disbelief and then felt moved to make this post. Because... it was that completely and utterly non-sense-making to me. I'm still going, "Huh?"

Just... any argument that hinges on the Doctor being polite as a prerequisite is utterly baffling to me. At that point, I have to wonder if the person in question has watched any episode of the show, new or old.

[misssara11.livejournal.com]

Look at where Rose is looking! And then the Doctor is all: "Me, holding another woman's hand? I wouldn't dream of it! Look how completely empty my hand is of any other woman's hand!" Seriously, it cracks me up. Also, check out Sarah Jane's face -- hilarious.).

Yes! Rose is all like, "HAND CHEATER!" Like it's the worst possible thing for him to do.

I too, have see this parallel world in which you speak and do not understand it. To me, Ten loved her more than Nine, whether it was because he just did or, like a lot of relationships, feelings deepened over time.

Let's see, he regenerated into that body because he thought Rose would like. Then, given the option to regenerate into something else, he didn't take it because Rose may not like it. Yep, he clearly couldn't stand her or value what she thought in any way.


And that moment in Human Nature is in my top three moments of S3. He doesn't even know who he is but he still remembers her. Clearly the actions of a man who was just humoring someone. Yep.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yes! Rose is all like, "HAND CHEATER!" Like it's the worst possible thing for him to do.

The confusion of what hand-holding means on this show amuses me so much. Because Rose is clearly betrayed by the Doctor holding Sarah Jane's hand here. And the Doctor himself only holds Martha's hand a couple of times in the beginning and then stops. But he holds Donna's hand all the time (and if we bring in TW, it gets even more complex).

I too, have see this parallel world in which you speak and do not understand it. To me, Ten loved her more than Nine, whether it was because he just did or, like a lot of relationships, feelings deepened over time.

It really does just make me blink in confusion. I mean, the canon text of the show is clearly illustrating that the Doctor loves Rose. If you choose to believe that it isn't 'in love'... then kissing and promising your life to someone else means something different to you, but it takes all kinds... but it very obviously is some kind of love. This whole notion that his feelings about her changed when pretty much his entire role in TCI was all about showing that they hadn't... it just seems like choosing to completely ignore canon (which, you know, whatever, who cares if you do that... but you shouldn't pretend that your character views are canonical, in that case... or you can just say you hate the Ten/Rose relationship and continue from there -- that's what I did with Buffy/Angel for six+ years).

And that moment in Human Nature is in my top three moments of S3. He doesn't even know who he is but he still remembers her. Clearly the actions of a man who was just humoring someone. Yep.

Hee. Oh, yeah, that's who I'd remember when I'd forgotten everything else -- that person I'd fallen out of love with and was stringing along.

[spiletta42.livejournal.com]

I clicked expecting to see "the Doctor is too polite to make advances towards Rose" but wow, that's so much better! Were these people even watching the show?

Thanks for the morning laugh.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I clicked expecting to see "the Doctor is too polite to make advances towards Rose" but wow, that's so much better! Were these people even watching the show?

Hee! Too polite, no. Too much of a big scaredy-cat, yes.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Apparently, there is a school of belief that states that, while the ninth Doctor was in love with Rose, the tenth Doctor was not and was humoring Rose throughout S2, was glad to be rid of her in S3, and wasn't thrilled to see her in "The Stolen Earth".

I...kind of get where some of that's coming from? At least the first part of it. Back in early season 2 I wasn't quite sure what to make of Ten's feelings for Rose. I got that he utterly adored Rose as his best friend, and really enjoyed her company but I didn't get the same feeling of romantic intensity from him for a while there.

To be honest it wasn't until season 3 that I started to get into the Ten/Rose ship (I know I did it all wrong cause that's when other fans were complaining about Ten being all about Rose :P ) When John Smith was drawing the pics of Rose, Ten was telling Donna "Her name was Rose", and I could just feel the same desperate longing that I had once got from the Ninth Doctor if that makes any sense. Because for me personally it felt like Ten/Rose became so comfortable around one another that it lacked the same sort of sexual tension, and was very much a best friends dynamic rather than the Tenth Doctor being in love. I always feel in the minority for it though heh as most of fandom tend to either complain or celebrate over how much shipper season 2 is seen to be for D/R!

What was it you disliked about John/Aeryn then? :)

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I don't think we've ever spoken, but you are the first person around fandom I've seen to echo my feelings so closely, so I felt the need to say hello! Series 3 was what really sold Doctor/Rose as a ship to me, and I didn't begin to properly ship it until I saw that! But I definitely saw a best-mates kind of love (as opposed to in love) in s2.

[prlrocks.livejournal.com]

It always stunned me that there was a good amount of people who didn't believe the Doctor was in love with Rose. I mean, how much proof do they need? Just a few examples you posted above, would be enough in my mind. It's funny that those people only shut up after JE and admited that maybe they were wrong.

Was this person a hardcore 9/Rose shipper? I can see someone saying that to make their prefence more important. Personally, I'd like to think the Doctor would love Rose no matter what regeneration he was in.

P.S. I love that Doctor/Rose being in love is now canon.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It is baffling to me. There have been many ships that I have not liked. There have been ships that I feel make the source silly and less interesting than it could be. But if it's canon, wishing doesn't make it any less canon.

Was this person a hardcore 9/Rose shipper? I can see someone saying that to make their prefence more important. Personally, I'd like to think the Doctor would love Rose no matter what regeneration he was in.

I pretty sure that they liked Nine/Rose, but I'm not sure whether or not they're a hard-core shipper. I'm always a bit baffled by people who only like either Nine/Rose or Ten/Rose, really. Because it's a continuation of the same relationship, just with some new quirks.

P.S. I love that Doctor/Rose being in love is now canon.

I know! I love them so much.

*squishes them and their cuteness*

[shinyopals.livejournal.com]

You know, when I first watched s1 and s2 I wasn't a shipper. I just saw them as being great friends, but it didn't have to be anything more. Yet even from my non-shipping PoV, I never doubted that he loved her. I mean, it's just so obvious that he wasn't stringing her along, from the big epic hugs, the almost "I love you"s right down to the tiny little glances.

(It seems silly now to say I *didn't* ship, but I was in a similar relationship at the time with a guy who was my best mate and there was nothing going on between us (yet), so I saw it as a bit of a mirror to my real life.)

It was really s3 that made me say "you know what, I think I ship this" and to come away from series four denying the couple makes me... I don't understand it. HE ALL BUT ASKED HER TO MARRY HIM. WHUT. You don't have to like the ship, just like you don't have to like Ron/Hermione or Aragorn/Arwen, but they're flipping CANON. It's not subtext any more.

Also, gorgeous, happy picspam! :D

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

You know, when I first watched s1 and s2 I wasn't a shipper. I just saw them as being great friends, but it didn't have to be anything more. Yet even from my non-shipping PoV, I never doubted that he loved her. I mean, it's just so obvious that he wasn't stringing her along, from the big epic hugs, the almost "I love you"s right down to the tiny little glances.

Dude, yes. The love is obvious, though kid-friendly.

It was really s3 that made me say "you know what, I think I ship this" and to come away from series four denying the couple makes me... I don't understand it. HE ALL BUT ASKED HER TO MARRY HIM. WHUT. You don't have to like the ship, just like you don't have to like Ron/Hermione or Aragorn/Arwen, but they're flipping CANON. It's not subtext any more.

Hee. Yes. He said he would spend the rest of his life with her if she wanted and she sealed it with a kiss. They are so married (though Jackie will probably want a wedding anyway).

Also, gorgeous, happy picspam!

Thanks!

[wesleysgirl.livejournal.com]

Doesn't that just explain it all?

Oh crap. What if there really ARE a bunch of us in one universe and the rest in another, and the internet is the common point between the two???!? Not good.

LOL! I'm not a huge Ten/Rose shipper, not being incredibly fannish about the show, but I certainly wouldn't deny that it's a love story between them.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh crap. What if there really ARE a bunch of us in one universe and the rest in another, and the internet is the common point between the two???!? Not good.

It really would explain so much. There really is a tenth Doctor who doesn't actually like Rose all that much. His show just isn't being broadcast in our universe.

[sherarara.livejournal.com]

I really loved this picspam/textspam. I really needed it this morning. Thank you for posting.

I actually have to get on board with the other people who didn't see it at first. I honestly watched the first two series without even getting a hint of it. But season three rolled around, and it just felt like he missed the character as much as I did, and suddenly I saw s1 and 2 in a completely different light. I rewatched them with my boyfriend, and I really can't believe that I was that dense, but I rather suspect it's because I wasn't watching too carefully. The moments from series three that you chose (how he says her name, the various references by people like the witch and Jack, etc.) are really what made me see the ship.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I really loved this picspam/textspam. I really needed it this morning. Thank you for posting.

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

I actually have to get on board with the other people who didn't see it at first. I honestly watched the first two series without even getting a hint of it. But season three rolled around, and it just felt like he missed the character as much as I did, and suddenly I saw s1 and 2 in a completely different light. I rewatched them with my boyfriend, and I really can't believe that I was that dense, but I rather suspect it's because I wasn't watching too carefully. The moments from series three that you chose (how he says her name, the various references by people like the witch and Jack, etc.) are really what made me see the ship.

S3 is our first chance to see what Ten is like without Rose (he mopes more). And seeing him react to companions in a non-romantic way retroactively showed how he was reacting to Rose romantically.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

You're also forgetting the part where everyone outside of Steven Moffat in New Who has also stated unequivocally that the Doctor and Rose love one another. Repeatedly.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Heh. Even Moffat grudgingly admitted that it was a love story. While in the process of trying to destroy it and insert his own, but still.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can understand not liking the ship. I don't like, say, Buffy/Angel, or Veronica/Duncan. But to claim that it didn't happen? That just makes you look silly.

I loved the screencaps you chose, btw. It's really striking, the difference between how the Doctor behaves with Rose versus with Martha and Donna. He obviously cares very much about Martha and Donna, but he hangs on Rose's every word and gazes at her like an adoring puppy--it's a HUGE difference, the difference between caring about a friend versus being in love.

I think that's why season two is still my favorite--it's just so fun to watch the Doctor head over heels in love.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can understand not liking the ship. I don't like, say, Buffy/Angel, or Veronica/Duncan. But to claim that it didn't happen? That just makes you look silly.

I know! It's so weird. This fandom baffles me more often than any other that I've checked out.

I loved the screencaps you chose, btw. It's really striking, the difference between how the Doctor behaves with Rose versus with Martha and Donna. He obviously cares very much about Martha and Donna, but he hangs on Rose's every word and gazes at her like an adoring puppy--it's a HUGE difference, the difference between caring about a friend versus being in love.

Thanks. And it really, really is. Adoring puppy is really the perfect phrase -- he seeks out her affection and her approval in a way that I don't see him do with any other character.

I think that's why season two is still my favorite--it's just so fun to watch the Doctor head over heels in love.

It really is. He's so cute. And love makes him look younger -- I noticed that in S4, that all that age he's been carrying around just melted away when he saw Rose.

[a-white-rain.livejournal.com]

The Doctor is too polite to break up with Rose. The same Doctor who has... like no idea how humans socliaze on more subtle levels and is not known for tact?

C'mon, I have issues with Doctor/Rose in season four myself, but what's canon is canon. Learn to cope.

*memories*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I know! Seriously, if the Doctor didn't love Rose, he would just have pulled what he tried to do to Martha in the beginning of "The Lazarus Experiment". "Oh, look! You're home! Enjoy!"

[deepdarkness.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I sometimes wonder what other people are watching, and if it's the same thing as I am. A prime example is my friend Neja. I *cough* forced her into watching Who this summer. She loved it, loved Nine, but hates Rose. She doesn't think she's good enough for him and believes she is generally incompitent.

Um...what show did I give her, exactly?

We've argued over this endlessly, and have agreed to disagree, but it's moments like this that make me think "how on Earth could you have come to that conclusion?" It's like with Moffat's "clingly girlfriend" comment. And this man was working on the show.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It's so weird! Rose is the most active character on the show -- she investigates and goes off on her own and figures things out and thinks things through independently. Which does mean that she gets in trouble a lot, but it's because she's out there doing stuff.

And the 'clingy girlfriend' thing from Moffat is just... yeah. Apart from being inaccurate, it's disrespectful.

[soupforlife.livejournal.com]

I only started watching Who last year, I think I saw TRB first and then watched Blink and the last three episodes of series 3. I knew there was a character Rose but did not know anything about her except that she was no longer there.

So all my first impressions of the Rose/Doctor relationship were the comments in TRB and the conversation between Jack and the Doctor. I didn't understand all of it at the time but could grasp the fact that she was lost and the Doctor missed her (understatement I know) and possibly loved her but that was what first 'sold' the idea of the Doctor/Rose ship. I then had to see what it was that made the Doctor miss her so much, which meant watching series 2 and then series 1. (I know completely the wrong order but it was the 10/Rose relationship that I was interested and convinced me that there was love there.)

Unfortunately I don't have time to try and get my thoughts round this more but from my weird order of watching new who it was the 10/Rose relationship that showed that this was a ship I could get behind! (Hopefully that all makes sense!)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It does, totally!

That's actually really sweet -- that seeing the Doctor missing Rose in S3 made you want to go back and see just who it was he was missing.

[shaela]

Apparently, there is a school of belief that states that, while the ninth Doctor was in love with Rose, the tenth Doctor was not and was humoring Rose throughout S2, was glad to be rid of her in S3, and wasn’t thrilled to see her in ‘The Stolen Earth.’ To which I say, ‘Bwuh, huh?’

*laughs* I’ll be the first to agree that there are differences between Nine/Rose and Ten/Rose. And I can understand the need to find an in-story reason for that. (You’ll sometimes hear people who prefer Ten/Rose argue that Ten changed to fit Rose, for example.) But I don’t think “Ten was humoring her” quite fits the story. (And I say that as someone who’s seriously considered it as an explanation.)

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hee. Yes. I mean, there were definitely adjustments in their relationship, because there were changes in the Doctor himself, but not in his fundamental feelings for Rose.

[helygen.livejournal.com]

This is a very impressive pictorial discussion, with well thought out arguments and very pretty examples. My reaction would have been "Have they actually watched this show?" but yours is far more entertaining :)


I'm baffled by people who differentiate between Nine and Ten as if they're different people. Yes, each regeneration brings him different personality traits and physical features, but ultimately he is still the Doctor. If he loved Rose in his ninth incarnation, why would he suddenly not love her in his tenth? It doesn't make sense. And that whole "too polite" argument is even flimsier ... when the hell was the Doctor ever polite???

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

This is a very impressive pictorial discussion, with well thought out arguments and very pretty examples. My reaction would have been "Have they actually watched this show?" but yours is far more entertaining :)

It was a good excuse to look through screencaps and go 'aww' at how cute the Doctor is over Rose. They are cuter than an entire box of kittens, I tell you.

I'm baffled by people who differentiate between Nine and Ten as if they're different people. Yes, each regeneration brings him different personality traits and physical features, but ultimately he is still the Doctor. If he loved Rose in his ninth incarnation, why would he suddenly not love her in his tenth? It doesn't make sense. And that whole "too polite" argument is even flimsier ... when the hell was the Doctor ever polite???

I know. Any way that I look at it, it doesn't make sense to me.

[gelosia.livejournal.com]

Nah, both Nine and Ten very much loved Rose. But I think Ten's obsession with her after they were separated was due to trauma. Her sudden leaving him made him long for something he couldn't have. He's a glutton for punishment like that. I really don't think their relationship was all that special other than the fact she came a long at a time that the Doctor really needed someone... anyone. The thing that made Ten mourn her loss so deeply, was the manner at which she left him -- he wasn't ready -- and that's it.

Now as for humouring... no that would be Martha through a lot of Series 3.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I don't actually recall the Doctor being obsessed with Rose in S3. Sad, sure. But he only mentions her to Martha in their first two episodes together (it's Martha who brings up her name in "Gridlock"). He's got the memory of her lingering in "Human Nature", though that's his subconscious poking through rather than his conscious mind. And he doesn't bring her up again until Jack actually asks about her "Utopia". He was grieving, but obsessed seems like a bit of exaggeration for me personally.

Now as for humouring... no that would be Martha through a lot of Series 3.

Do you feel like the Doctor was humoring Martha (with the trips and such) or like Martha was humoring in the Doctor (with... I'm not sure what it would be, in her case)?

[arabian.livejournal.com]

Gobsmacked when I read that this morning, still rather gobsmacked honestly. Surprised about John/Aeryn -- I don't ship, ship them, but I do like them lots, pleased to see someone else not happy about Harry/Ginny. Ugh. My sister just told me that they've beefed up the Harry/Ginny scenes in the new movie to make them more believable and I said 'duh! because they sure as hell weren't in the books.'

Also, other thing mentioned in these comments. I too feel that there was more of a sexual tension there between Nine/Rose over Ten/Rose, but I lay that simply at the feet of the fact that I believe that CE and BP have sexual chemistry, whereas DT and BP have friendly, smooshy, lovey-dovey chemistry. Both work for the different doctors and the growth of their relationship, but that's why it's different for me.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Surprised about John/Aeryn -- I don't ship, ship them, but I do like them lots

Like I said... very small minority of fans for that one.

My sister just told me that they've beefed up the Harry/Ginny scenes in the new movie to make them more believable and I said 'duh! because they sure as hell weren't in the books.'

They already helped by showing her as being strong in OotP, which is more than the book did. Hopefully, they will make the romance somewhat believable.

Also, other thing mentioned in these comments. I too feel that there was more of a sexual tension there between Nine/Rose over Ten/Rose, but I lay that simply at the feet of the fact that I believe that CE and BP have sexual chemistry, whereas DT and BP have friendly, smooshy, lovey-dovey chemistry. Both work for the different doctors and the growth of their relationship, but that's why it's different for me.

They definitely have distinct vibes (I suspect that part of the reason that I am such a fan of the David/Billie chemistry is that I tend to be a 'best friends' kind of shipper), but they both vibe.

[katesutton.livejournal.com]

Er. Seriously, I wish some people would get over it. There is such a thing as differing opinions, but this? Is kinda basic to this show, like it or not. You can fudge a bit and claim the Doctor loved her just as a friend, ignoring a lot of stuff, but he loved her, okay? The Doctor is not afraid of telling people the truth, just because he can't bear to hurt their feelings(cf: season three, Martha Jones).

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It was really baffling to me on that level. Because I don't care whether or not someone ships Doctor/Rose, but saying that their intense relationship (however you read it) doesn't exist just absolutely guts the characterization for both of the characters. Their actions stop making sense.

[the-lucky-stars.livejournal.com]

Ho ho ho. Fandom will never ever ever make sense. This post, however, seems perfectly logical! *mems*

I can only believe that there is, in fact, another version of the show that been put out since series 2 started.

I quite agree.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Fandom is so wacky. Every day, I think I can't hear anything weirder, yet I always do.

[pluckyyounggirl.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to decide whether I'm more amused by them (in a bad, pointing and laughing at them kind of way) or by you (in the absolutely best way imaginable), and... I can't.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Also, because I don't think it can be said often enough: I love your contributions to this fandom, your meta in particular. Thank you for collecting and putting together beautiful sets of pictures and quotes (and hilarious comments) time after time. <3

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Doctor Who fandom is... well, I wouldn't have believed anyone if they'd warned me about it. But... wow, man. It's unique.

And thank you very much! I'm pleased to amuse.

[xbriyeon.livejournal.com]

You don't know how much I love you now. The next time I find some even flyaway comment bashing/trying to disprove Doctor/Rose I will link them to this.

*mems*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I have to admit that, after JE, I kinda think that anyone saying that Doctor/Rose isn't canon is just flat-out denying what the show gave us. Love it, hate it, or feel indifferent: it's canon. The Doctor offered to spend the rest of his life with Rose (if she accepted him) and she sealed the deal with a kiss.

[mrv3000.livejournal.com]

Oh, he was totally being polite. ;)

I have to comment on a couple of comments - the whole "not getting it until S3" thing. I can totally see how that could be. Even though I was already sailing on the D/R ship since S1, even I underestimated the depth of feeling that was there by the Doctor until I saw S3.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

S3 really laid it all out there -- exactly how much he had needed Rose and that his happiness wasn't just his natural state as the tenth Doctor but was also largely influenced by being in love. They just kept upping the love stakes in S3. It was very impressive, with one half of the couple not there.

[millylicious.livejournal.com]

Oh, people. Seriously *facepalm*

I've just given up arguing with them. This is me, playing in my D/R corner, all you other idiots can go do whatever.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

This particular way of arguing my point was pretty fun, though. David's Doctor is so pretty, especially when he looks at Rose.

But, yeah, I'm not actually engaging the crazy people. That's no fun.

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

Apparently, there is a school of belief that states that, while the ninth Doctor was in love with Rose, the tenth Doctor was not and was humoring Rose throughout S2, was glad to be rid of her in S3, and wasn't thrilled to see her in "The Stolen Earth". To which I say, "Bwuh, huh?"

I'd missed the last part due to not having gone past my flist in months for Who-related content, but sadly I had seen the parts about humoring Rose in S2 and being glad to be rid of her in S3. It's just as baffling now as it was then. I really, really don't get it. I really want to know what genius came up with the way to get TV from alternate universes, because that's the only way I can explain that theory.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, sure -- wasn't the Doctor just bursting with happiness in S3? Obviously, that was a result of finally getting rid of Rose.

It really is like they must be watching different actors saying different words with completely different facial expressions.

[threerings.livejournal.com]

Great, great post. I even stuck around with my dial-up and waiting for the pics to load. You rock.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Aw, thank you. I'm glad that you enjoyed it!