Doctor Who plans and other various notes:

[butterfly]

I watched the rest of "Doctor Horrible" and found it to be quite a good critique of the 'Nice Guy' and why he really isn't. That was enjoyable in a painful way.

I've made plans to do a rewatch of Doctor Who which will feature the following key elements in each episode review:

a) whether or not the episode passes the Bechdel Test (at least two women talk to each other about something other than a man).
b) clothes and their hidden meanings.
c) Bunnies! Okay, no. I lie. There will be no bunnies. There may be kitties.
d) the Doctor as Lonely God.
e) character evolution (and, related to that, relationship evolution). You might think that this would be related to d), but it really isn't.
f) foreshadowing and/or anvils.
e) squee about how pretty the show is (a section that can include: actors, lighting, color correction, editing, directing, writing and more).

Bought that Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking book that I've been wanting to read for ages. I'm looking forward to checking that out.

Comments

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

a) whether or not the episode passes the Bechdel Test (at least two women talk to each other about something other than a man).

If you find two of these scenes in all of New Who, I'll be very surprised. But I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing - difficult to expect a series where the two leads are a man and a woman to pass the Bechdel test every time.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I can think of one in "Rose" without needing to watch it first -- Rose and Jackie talk about how Rose doesn't have a job anymore. And Rose talks to her mom again on the phone in the next episode about lottery tickets. And Rose also talks to Cassandra at length without a man being brought up at any point. Again... that's without rewatching the episodes in question.

[crossoverman.livejournal.com]

Also the conversation Donna has with her mother in "Turn Left" where her mum says she's disappointed in her.

Okay, you win.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Who does a much better job with its female characters than most shows. One of the reasons that I'm so fond of it.

[principia-coh.livejournal.com]

Just off the top of my head...

End of the World - Rose and the repair girl
The Unquiet Dead - Rose and Gwyneth

*sheepishly admits it's been too long since I last rewatched the rest of series 1 for instant recall at this hour*

TCI - Rose and Jackie, about Harriet Jones
NE - Rose and Cassandra, about their shared history and the cats in the hospital
TaC - Rose and Lady Isobel (well, it's more Rose shouting at her); and also briefly QV (about assassination attempts)
SR - No, but that's kind of the point of the episode
TGitF - ditto
RotC - Rose and alt!Jackie, briefly, although the conversation segues into talking about Pete
AoS - Rose has no interactions with another woman, unless you count her mum at the very end
TIL - Rose and Rita, about the problems with Rita's mother
TIP - Rose and Ida, about the 'storm' outside the base; Rose and Scooti, about the Ood (v. brief)
TSP - Rose has no interactions with another woman
LaM - Rose is barely in the episode at all (as is the Doctor), and has no interactions with another woman
FH - Rose and Trish, about her daughter and the general situation
AoG - Rose and Jackie about the ghosts situation
D - Jackie and Yvonne, about the Cybermen

TRB - Donna has no interactions with another woman (Sylvia yelling at her doesn't count)
SaJ - Martha and her colleague, about the situation (Tish and Martha talking about their parents involves a man)
TSC - If you count Martha yelling at Lilith; otherwise she has no interactions with another woman
Grid - Martha and her female kidnapper, about multiple things
DiM/EotD - Martha and Tallulah have a brief conversation about the Depression, and also about the pig men
TLE - Martha and Francine, v. briefly about Leo; I believe all conversations with Tish end up mentioning either the Doctor or Lazarus
42 - Martha and Francine, pub quiz and when she calls her to say goodbye
HN/FoB - Martha and Jenny about her race (v. brief), Martha and Joan about her medical credentials
Blink - Sally and her friend, about the house and what they're doing there
Utopia - Martha and Chantho about linguistic issues
TSoD - If you set aside all conversations that have anything to do with a man in any sense (the Master or Clive (sort of)), then no
LotTL - Martha and the Professor about the Toclafane

VotD - No.
PiC - Donna and Sylvia about her current lifestyle
TFoP - Donna and Evelina about the sisters and the future, Donna and Metella about Evelina
PotO - I don't think Donna interacts directly with even Solana, does she?
TSS/TPS - Donna with Martha about her family, Donna with Sylvia about her ownership of an axe
TDD - Jenny, about who and what she is (v. brief)
TUatW - Donna with Agatha about her books
SitL/FotD - Donna with Miss Evangelista about her relationships with other people and her intelligence
M - Lady Macbeth (Mrs. Cane), the Hostess, and the Professor's assistant, back and forth about how to handle the situation with Sky (although there's really a whole lot of people yelling at one another willy-nilly)
TL - Donna and Sylvia about her job loss, Donna and her mates about her job, Donna and Rose about the fate of the world, Donna and the social worker about the move to Leeds
TSE/JE - Martha and Francine about the world ending, Martha and the German woman about the Osterhagen Key

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Check you and your awesome recall!

*is impressed*

[honorh.livejournal.com]

In "The Doctor Dances," that most sexual of episodes, Rose actually has a conversation with Nancy that's sans the men. Really depends, though, on if you need the whole conversation to not include mention of a male, or if part will do. In S1, it'd actually be a bit unnatural to have Rose not bring the Doctor into a lot of her side conversations, as he's a major part of her life.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Dude! I love that conversation. And it has such a big impact on Nancy that Rose is the person that she looks to for support later on, not the Doctor.

[honorh.livejournal.com]

Let's see, then--principia_coh covered most episodes, but I'll see what I can remember about S1:

"Rose"--Rose and Jackie about jobs and compensation
EotW--Rose and Raffalo about plumbing, though the Doctor does come into that conversation eventually
TUD--Rose and Gwyneth cover a number of subjects, nice arses on blokes included
AoL/WWIII--Rose and Jackie on where she's been, Rose and Harriet on the things that have been happening at Downing Street
"Dalek"--Don't believe Rose interacts with any woman aside from a nameless security officer with a dodgy accent
TLG--Brief exchanges with Suki and Cathica, but the Doctor was there
FD--The whole thing was about Pete, so, no
TEC--Too busy being chatted up by Jack
TDD--Aforementioned conversation with Nancy
BT--Blon Slitheen and the reporter girl on the Blaidd Drwg project; the girl's fiancee gets a mention
BW/PotW--Um, nope. Rose's conversations were all either with men or about the Doctor.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

*laughs*

Y'all are doing all my work for me.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

I keep having to look up sales numbers for Blink. I've taken to writing "a billion."

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I remember that someone was talking about Buffy and mentioned the book in a way that was very intriguing, but I hadn't gotten around to getting my hands on it until now. And it was on sale, so that's always nice.

[pluckyyounggirl.livejournal.com]

It really just is the prettiest, most high-quality show in pretty much all of the areas you mentioned. I love how much care goes into it & how high their standards are.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

The crew puts so much work into the show. RTD talks on the "Rose" commentary on how important it was to him that it be a beautiful show and that dedication really comes through.

[deifire]

a) whether or not the episode passes the Bechdel Test (at least two women talk to each other about something other than a man).

I can't wait to see what you come up with! I always thought most of them didn't, which is why it surprised me that new Who got such a large number of requests in femslash08. And a whole lot of good fic as well. I've wondered if there's more interaction than I'm seeing, or if it's one of those elements fans are writing for themselves because they miss it on the actual show.

Let us know what you think of Blink, too! I just won a copy as part of a summer program at my public library, but haven't had a chance to crack the cover yet.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I can't wait to see what you come up with! I always thought most of them didn't, which is why it surprised me that new Who got such a large number of requests in [info]femslash08. And a whole lot of good fic as well. I've wondered if there's more interaction than I'm seeing, or if it's one of those elements fans are writing for themselves because they miss it on the actual show.

principia_coh and honorh have talked about it a bit in the comments. There's quite a few that they thought of off the top of their heads.

Let us know what you think of Blink, too! I just won a copy as part of a summer program at my public library, but haven't had a chance to crack the cover yet.

I'm really looking forward to reading it.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

I watched the rest of "Doctor Horrible" and found it to be quite a good critique of the 'Nice Guy' and why he really isn't.
I saw this discussed on Feministe and (my icon aside) I love that take on it. Toward the end I really got the sense he and Hammer were two sides of the same coin. I also like how Whedon acknowledged in an interview/chat that his feelings for Penny aren't based on anything substantial about her.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I saw this discussed on Feministe and (my icon aside) I love that take on it.

That was really the vibe that I got from it. The only character in there who actually wanted to connect with people on a human level was Penny.

Toward the end I really got the sense he and Hammer were two sides of the same coin.

*nods*

Captain Hammer is the charming man who just wants to get into the girl's pants, and Doctor Horrible is the 'nice guy' who falls in love with a pretty face. Neither of them actually knew Penny as a person (that Billy thinks that Penny would want Australia illustrates how little he knows her).

[sol-se.livejournal.com]

Also, for the Bechdel Test, the two female characters talking to eachother have to have names.

b) clothes and their hidden meanings.

Ooooh...I am intrigued. *g*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Also, for the Bechdel Test, the two female characters talking to eachother have to have names.

It actually doesn't specify that anywhere (link to the comic strip that started it all (http://alisonbechdel.blogspot.com/2005/08/rule.html)). And I've definitely seen people go 'named main female character spoke to a random female extra! It passes the Bechdel!' Personally, I considered that to be passing on a technicality. I wouldn't count Rose saying 'Hi!' to a random female extra on my own accounting of it (but I would count the officially and purposefully unnamed 'hostess' in "Midnight" talking to the female passengers because she has characterization and depth).

Ooooh...I am intrigued. *g*

Clothes are fun. And they reflect characterization.

[sol-se.livejournal.com]

Ah, got it. Yeah, I wouldn't count a passing comment to an extra either. Maybe that's why the "named" amendment starting floating around?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Probably. Because counting passing comments to extras might meet the letter of the rule but not the spirit of it all. And I care a lot more about meeting the spirit of that kind of rule.

[coneyislandbaby]

Well in that case, technically, couldn't two women FBI agents or police officers talking about a male suspect count? Except it apparently doesn't because it's a man and I don't quite see (I'm presuming he's not a romantic interest for either in this case) how it wouldn't be what people were looking for. But perhaps that goes to spirit rather than letter? It's slightly confusing.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's just about romance. I think it's about the general use of male versus female characters. For example, in a recent movie (being general to avoid spoilers), the choice was made to focus on a male child as very emotionally important while that child's female sibling got only brief screen time and no lines. That's just as much a reflection of the values of the movie as the women only talking about men. More men get used in movies and television than women, in all kinds of roles.