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butterflyWhere I talk about the parts of the Doctor and Rose relationship that aren't about hugs, holding hands, and being adorable together.
This is about the darker side of epic, once-in-a-lifetime love and why Ten I can possibly handle the notion of Rose living her life out with Ten II better than the notion of Rose staying with him.
Most of the ships that I enjoy most are not epic, 'once-in-a-lifetime' love. I don't ship Buffy/Angel; I don't ship John/Aeryn (Farscape). Honestly, I think that the only reason that I've ended up shipping the few epic loves that I do is because they slipped up on me by accident. Will/Elizabeth (Pirates of the Caribbean) starts out as just a typical low-born boy/high-born girl romance that becomes epic (mostly over the course of the final film). The Doctor and Rose appear to start out as two people who connect and become friends and slowly fall in love. But the Doctor is an epic character and, in response to him, Rose becomes epic herself.
There are several things about their relationship that are potentially dangerous elements, all of which we've seen touched on by the show.
One of the most important is that the rules don't apply to Rose. All of the rules that the Doctor enforces with his other companions and with the universe in general do not apply when it comes to Rose. Rose is allowed to mess around with a dimensional cannon and the Doctor thinks that it's cute, while Jack isn't allowed to have his vortex manipulator (which he knows how to use and which can't potentially destroy the universe) functional. The Doctor will take Rose back to a fragile point in history and, when she messes up the first time, she's allowed a second try ("Your wish is my command."). When she screws up again, all he needs is a 'sorry' and he immediately forgives her. Additionally, he lets himself die and risks the world being destroyed by the Reapers rather than have her face the pain of losing her father again. At the end of the episode, he only offers her comfort and solace at her loss. Jack and Martha both get biting words from the Doctor when he sees them end up in military outfits but Rose, on the other hand, gets complimented ("Defender of the Earth!") and he never says a word about her carrying a gun in the finale. Rose can commit genocide ("Parting of the Ways") and the Doctor will never say a harsh word to her about it and will, in fact, have nothing but admiration for her when he speaks of it later, while he condemns himself for the same act.
Perhaps the most dangerous part of the above point is that the Doctor does not actually appear to notice that this is the case. He doesn't see that he's applying a different standard to Rose than he is the rest of the universe.
Another important danger point is 'that Romeo and Juliet thing'. Which is to say, if Rose makes life worth living, what's the point of living if there's no Rose? Several times over the course of Series Three, the Doctor would have died if not for the intervention of outside parties (including Donna, Martha, and a Dalek). We know from "Turn Left" that if he'd died in "The Runaway Bride", he would have let himself stay dead (as the Master did in "Last of the Time Lords"). He didn't seem all that ready to regenerate in "Smith and Jones", either.
An additional factor is the uptick in his anger levels when Rose is in danger (and how, when Rose is gone in S3, he makes no attempt to curb his vengeful tendencies). He fails to give the Wire so much as a first chance in "The Idiot's Lantern" because Rose was treated like trash and got hurt and "that makes things very simple". He traps the Wire and lightly talks about erasing her and never shows a moment of hesitation or doubt over the decision. He also implies that he's only being careful with the nuns in "New Earth" because he's worried about Rose's brain being damaged.
In "School Reunion" he makes the point that while she could spend the rest of her life with him, he can't spend the rest of his with her. He calls this "the curse of the Time Lords". He is horrified at the thought that she will grow old and die right in front of his eyes and then he'll be forced to carry on without her. It's this episode in particular that makes me believe that the Doctor is being a bit selfish by leaving Rose with Ten II.
Ten II is not a full Time Lord. He doesn't carry the responsibilities that Ten I does. He'll grow old and die one day, just like Rose.
If Rose had stayed with Ten I, he would still have had to watch her die. He still would have lost her, but to death. He already knows how intolerable it is to have her in a parallel world. He only barely survived that. I don't think that he believes he can survive losing her again. He would want to follow her.
Ten II can make that choice without endangering the universe. Ten I can't. We know what would happen if he let himself die out of grief over missing Rose -- a world similar to the one we saw in "Turn Left". And the Doctor has an inkling about that as well. He realizes that what he does in the universe is important work that he's needed to do.
As long as Rose is in that parallel universe, she is potentially alive (Schrödinger's Rose?). Because she's there with Ten II, then she is also potentially happy. And the Doctor believes that that is a better choice than certain happiness and equally certain death. He once made the choice to let a Dalek loose onto the world because he couldn't stand the thought of her dying, not once he'd lived with thinking it ("Dalek"). "I killed her once. I can't do it again."
In "World War Three", he's frozen at the thought of saving the Earth at the cost of Rose. In "Dalek", he decides that keeping Rose alive is more important than containing the Dalek. In "Parting of the Ways", he sends Rose (and only Rose) out of the way of the Daleks. He makes the decision that her life is worth more than that of any of the other people on that station, including Jack. He sacrifices his ninth life to save her and keeps her with him, while abandoning Jack for something that wasn't his fault.
Now, because Rose is who she is, none of his choices to favor her have done anything terribly destructive. Rose is a kind, brave, and devoted person. She matches the Doctor's glee in the unknown with her own and delights in that adrenaline buzz. Because they're so well-suited and because Rose is such a strong character in her own right, she balanced out the Doctor and likely would have continued to do so in the future. Rose herself is the best counter to the possible dangers of the Doctor's feelings for her.
But Rose can't fix the fact that she's going to die (can she? would she? should she?), not in a safe and sane way. That's their irreconcilable difference -- that Rose will grow old and die. And there are only two ways to 'fix' that -- either Rose gets eternal life or the Doctor becomes that bit more human. The third option is the Doctor getting over his issues but that's about as likely to happen as the TARDIS turning into a penguin, so I won't be holding my breath.
Given the factors, creating a second (slightly more human) Doctor is really the best solution to the problem.
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 06:50 am (UTC)I still love the Ten I and Rose. Irrationally, I still want them together. But for the show, it's completely implausible, both because of the reasons you stated and because an epic love story Doctor Who is not, and could never successfully be, in my opinion, which is why love intereests have to get shipped off to alternate universes with almost-Doctor's.
You're 100% right, of course, when it comes to how rules apply to different companions. The Doctor loves her so much, *sigh*
I'm really going to have to go live in immortal/bad-wolf/Time-Lord/fan-wank!Rose fanon now, aren't I? ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 06:54 am (UTC)I'm really going to have to go live in immortal/bad-wolf/Time-Lord/fan-wank!Rose fanon now, aren't I? ;)
Oh, it’s only another kind of AU. You’ll be fine ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:34 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 12:26 pm (UTC)Can I come? I mean, we're all going to need a bit of company there, right? ;-)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 01:36 pm (UTC)Hah, I didn't even know that fanon was out there. I've been a part of it this whole time without even realizing it.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 06:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 06:53 am (UTC)Reading this makes me feel very, very sad for him.
I worry about what the specials are going to be like for him (I suspect rather dark, to be honest); I can see why he’s given her up but at the same time I’m not sure it’s at all good for him that he’s done so.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 06:42 pm (UTC)I worry about what the specials are going to be like for him (I suspect rather dark, to be honest); I can see why he’s given her up but at the same time I’m not sure it’s at all good for him that he’s done so.
I must admit to being very curious. That they're bringing the Cybermen back is almost like a test, because they were just as much a part of him losing Rose the first time as the Daleks were. And are they the Cybrus Cybermen, somehow over here, or the original ones come back again?
Plus, there's that voice in the back of my head still wondering about "The Stowaway".
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 11:15 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 06:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 06:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 07:09 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 07:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 07:20 pm (UTC)The one thing that baffled me when I started watching Who was figuring out how admitted control-freak Russell could handle writing characters that didn't, in the end, belong to him. If he was planning all along to lock his OTP up in their own personal universe, then it all makes sense.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 07:25 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 12:31 pm (UTC)I’m getting the weirdest feeing of déjà vu. The problem I have with those options—and with the end of “Journey’s End”—is that Doctor Who is about the Doctor. If he’s never going to change, what’s the point of the story?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 06:48 pm (UTC)But if nothing huge happens with regards to the Doctor's mental state in those, then I really do think that does speak more to the fact that Russell has to give the Doctor back in 2010 than anything else. Someone else is going to be in charge of his story. Russell can give a version of the Doctor a happy ending, but the Doctor that the shows follows isn't allowed to end. He isn't allowed to be complete -- he needs to keep traveling and, when the shift to Moffat happens, Russell likely wants this chapter to be closed off so that it's sealed into canon. For all his outward changes, the Doctor is still carrying the same issues now that he was as the First Doctor. That kind of history is hard to change (though I really do love reading the fanfic where he gets to grow).
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 01:07 pm (UTC)That doesn't mean I'm going to live anywhere other than my AU world, of course.
The thing is, I feel the show could realistically have gone in the other direction. While I agree that series shows the Doctor at his absolute worst (and Turn Left only confirms this), before the finale I was watching s4 and seeing him healing. Yes, there was still angst. But a lot of s4 seemed to me to be him learning that he *can* live in a world without her and he can heal after losing her, he'd just rather she was there for as long as she had. I don't think a wander-into-the-sunset ending which shows that he has got over his issues (Penguin-TARDIS! XD) would have been a huge stretch.
So while I do appreciate the ending of Journey's End (no matter how much denial I'm living in), I could see another ending working if they'd wanted to take him in that direction.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 01:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 01:44 pm (UTC)I'll be living in my AU fic world because it makes me happier, not because I have a problem with canon!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 06:53 pm (UTC)I think that the Doctor's character can be realistically written in that way. Which is why I love fanfic. Fic where the Doctor and Rose stay together still feels 'in-character' to me. I think there are several points where he had the chance to give over his issues (TIP/TSP, in particular). Given how much Russell loves Rose, I can see why he didn't want to go with a story where he would have to write her death (even if she is ninety and blissfully happy) or even imply it. Now, for Russell as much as for the original Doctor, Rose is always going to be there with the Doctor.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 01:33 pm (UTC)Will/Elizabeth (Pirates of the Caribbean) starts out as just a typical low-born boy/high-born girl romance that becomes epic (mostly over the course of the final film).
Yes!! That is EXACTLY how it happened for me. And now I love them. Erm, okay, on with the Doctor and Rose.
Rose is allowed to mess around with a dimensional cannon and the Doctor thinks that it's cute, while Jack isn't allowed to have his vortex manipulator (which he knows how to use and which can't potentially destroy the universe) functional ... etc.
All of your points are quite valid in how he treats Rose differently, and I confess that I love it. I love that Rose was so clearly, so obviously special.
If Rose had stayed with Ten I, he would still have had to watch her die. He still would have lost her, but to death. He already knows how intolerable it is to have her in a parallel world. He only barely survived that. I don't think that he believes he can survive losing her again. He would want to follow her.
This reminds me of something someone said (oh, I think it was
Given the factors, creating a second (slightly more human) Doctor is really the best solution to the problem.
I agree ... in the course of the reality of the television show and its logistics. However, in my personal canon, one day 10.5 dies and Rose doesn't because when she had the time vortex in her, it changed her and she's immortal too. Uh huh. So she goes and finds the Doctor again and call hims a big looby for not realizing it and they deal with the issues of separating, her being with another one of him and then they travel the universe together forever. Yup.
ETA: Aww, Will & Elizabeth on the beach at the end, just like the Doctor and Rose.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 02:43 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 03:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 07:00 pm (UTC)They went all unexpectedly epic and awesome on me! I was kinda baffled, but went with it because I was so in love with them at that point. But, you know -- Pirate King! Captain of the Flying Dutchman! Love each other so much that one day can be worth ten years missing each other. And Will is so proud of how awesome Elizabeth is (and he taught her how to sword fight and never treated her like she shouldn't be there). I am currently working on an Elizabeth vid and am being reminded of her incredible awesome.
All of your points are quite valid in how he treats Rose differently, and I confess that I love it. I love that Rose was so clearly, so obviously special.
I totally do, too. It's something that could be a problem, if Rose weren't so great. But I love that bit of... weakness in him. That Rose came and changed his life and doesn't fit into any of the categories that he's put people into over the years.
I agree ... in the course of the reality of the television show and its logistics. However, in my personal canon, one day 10.5 dies and Rose doesn't because when she had the time vortex in her, it changed her and she's immortal too. Uh huh. So she goes and finds the Doctor again and call hims a big looby for not realizing it and they deal with the issues of separating, her being with another one of him and then they travel the universe together forever. Yup.
I fully support this happening in fic. Not on the show, though, because I am selfish and don't want Moffat writing my Rose.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 01:39 pm (UTC)Rose, however, is special, so he needs to put her out of reach, or he will visit.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 07:01 pm (UTC)Exactly. He wouldn't be able to help himself. For him, having Rose utterly inaccessible is actually safer. The great big loon.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 02:18 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-15 02:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 02:46 pm (UTC)Anyway, the more I read, the more I realize that what the Doctor did with Rose at the end, sending her off to a (hopefully) fantastic life with 10.5, was sadly completely in-character for him.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 07:07 pm (UTC)I'm not sure. It may be a side effect of applying the way he writes love to a show that's about epic events and saving the world. There's a fair amount of 'that person can do stuff like that, because I love him/her' in his other writing as well. But because those stories (the ones I've seen -- I still haven't seen The Second Coming) are more about everyday life, it doesn't matter so much in the grand scheme of things. It's not written on that epic scale.
Anyway, the more I read, the more I realize that what the Doctor did with Rose at the end, sending her off to a (hopefully) fantastic life with 10.5, was sadly completely in-character for him.
It really was.
*sigh*
I feel bad for him and want to give him a good smack, both at the same time.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 08:35 pm (UTC)I especially like the point you made about the rules not applying to Rose. I thought that, the other day and whilst many complain about it, I love the fact that he treats her so differently from everyone else. He's hopelessly in love.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-15 02:56 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-13 10:10 pm (UTC)That's why Rose breaking the rules doesn't bother me - because I already shipped a similar pairing going into the series. It's funny because my initial introduction to Doctor/Rose wasn't all that good and I fell for the pairing unconsciously. Another point is that yeah, the Doctor doesn't yell at Rose at all about breaching the two universes again. If Pete or Mickey had been the ones to do it, they would had been immobilized like Jack was. But, it was Rose and it's a sign that when it comes to her, he's willing to put both universes at risk. You know if somehow the Doctor while with Martha or Donna had found a hole into the parallel universe, he would have punched through it. Then again, Donna ships Doctor/Rose, so she would had enabled him. ;)
Now, because Rose is who she is, none of his choices to favor her have done anything terribly destructive.
It would be interesting to see if someone attempts to clone Rose, go back and meddle with things because they know the Doctor would allow Rose to get away with murder and then some. But, it most likely wouldn't work since the Doctor was able to see through clone!Martha pretty much right off the bat.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-02 06:39 am (UTC)I didn't go into the show planning to ship them, either. But I'd completely fallen in love with Rose by the end of my first episode with her and it only took a little bit longer for me to fall for the Doctor and then the ship. They just fit so well together and make each other so happy.
Another point is that yeah, the Doctor doesn't yell at Rose at all about breaching the two universes again. If Pete or Mickey had been the ones to do it, they would had been immobilized like Jack was.
Oh, yes. If anyone else had showed up there, the Doctor would have given them a huge scolding. Rose, however, gets a pass. Because she's Rose and he knows her and can't everyone just see how wonderful she is? Oh, Doctor. He's so in love.
It would be interesting to see if someone attempts to clone Rose, go back and meddle with things because they know the Doctor would allow Rose to get away with murder and then some. But, it most likely wouldn't work since the Doctor was able to see through clone!Martha pretty much right off the bat.
Yeah. It would have to be much more advanced cloning technology to stand a hope of passing with him. But it would be interesting to see how far he would let her go before it actually started to bother him.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 03:59 am (UTC)I have to say, though, I'm glad to hear someone else ponder (in your comment responses) about the lyrics to "The Stowaway" and wonder if/how that will be referenced in this year's Christmas special. I have been thinking about this all week -- in part because I'd been so convinced that somehow Rose was going to stay with the Doctor because of the foreshadowing of those lyrics -- so it's good to see I'm not alone in wondering what kind of references, if any, we're going to get. Could we really be so lucky as to get some type of glimpse into Rose and Ten 2's life together on their first Christmas together? It sounds almost too good to be true, but the song lyrics so far have been deliberate, so I can't help wonder how they might play out.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-02 06:43 am (UTC)Exactly. It's a way for him to relax about Rose. Because if there's anyone in the universe who would actually treat her as wonderfully as he thinks she deserves to be treated, it's himself. And he doesn't have to worry about losing her.
I have to say, though, I'm glad to hear someone else ponder (in your comment responses) about the lyrics to "The Stowaway" and wonder if/how that will be referenced in this year's Christmas special. I have been thinking about this all week -- in part because I'd been so convinced that somehow Rose was going to stay with the Doctor because of the foreshadowing of those lyrics -- so it's good to see I'm not alone in wondering what kind of references, if any, we're going to get. Could we really be so lucky as to get some type of glimpse into Rose and Ten 2's life together on their first Christmas together? It sounds almost too good to be true, but the song lyrics so far have been deliberate, so I can't help wonder how they might play out.
I'm very curious. Because... it almost seems as if "Love Don't Roam" (back in "The Runaway Bride") is written for the part of the Doctor that chose to stay with Rose rather than the one that leaves.
And "The Stowaway" is interesting because we didn't actually get to see him do any fighting to get to her side. Rose was still the active person in their romance, while the Doctor was the more passive one (the damsel, the one to be wooed).
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:01 am (UTC)As long as Rose is in that parallel universe, she is potentially alive (Schrödinger's Rose?).
Yes! I was thinking about that the other day, how it fits into the Doctor's motivation and how it also works for the audience, that for us Rose and human!Doctor will always be alive in that other universe, having adventures that continue forever... I can understand why the Doctor wanted that, that for him Rose lives forever, and I kind of selfishly appreciate it as an audience member as well, even though I'd have preferred Rose to live out her life span with the Doctor.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-02 06:44 am (UTC)Oh, the Doctor and his baggage. It fills entire aircraft carriers.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 02:20 pm (UTC)I'm probably going to be in the camp where both Ten2 and Rose live happily ever after (of sorts) AND ignoring the end of JE. Cause, hey, more Rose and Doctor is always nice! I wonder when the branching off fic will begin...
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-02 06:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:28 pm (UTC)A lot of us believe that she's gotten herself a dose of what she gave Jack and just doesn't know it yet...
Which leaves open the possibility that in the future the doctor will find her again long after she should have been dead. Which would add a whole other can of worms to this epic romance.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-02 06:46 am (UTC)Oh! And I just posted links to all the "Journey's End" essays that I've written. It should be the first post on my journal.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 04:47 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-14 07:13 pm (UTC)thoughtknown about how biased 9 and 10 were towards her, but I always only thought of the gun thing and Torchwood, really, and all these other points you've noted really make it even more impacting.As happy as I am that Rose does get a Doctor in 10.5 / II / etc., it still kills me to have 10 back to the beginning after Doomsday, all alone and so emotionally drained (and now of his own accord.)
Blah. This has been driving me nuts all week. I'll just stick to the canon of this lovely AU crack-ish!fic (http://community.livejournal.com/time_and_chips/5180737.html) in my head.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-08-02 06:51 am (UTC)Thanks! And, yeah, when I rewatch the episodes (and remember how he treated Martha, Jack, Mickey, even Donna in similar situations), it's so clear that Rose gets treated differently.
As happy as I am that Rose does get a Doctor in 10.5 / II / etc., it still kills me to have 10 back to the beginning after Doomsday, all alone and so emotionally drained (and now of his own accord.)
His ending really does break my heart (as does Donna's).
And crackfic can be very enjoyable and soothing.