butterfly: (Tell Lies - Harry Potter (by marysiak))
[personal profile] butterfly

I'm used to being the only person I know with this instinctive recoil specifically against unwarranted violence -- I suspect it isn't so much inate character as experience. All I know is, if the violence doesn't have a damn good reason (Buffy with Faith in Dirty Girls falls under this heading for me, because Buffy had a lot of pent-up pain about Faith that she hadn't been allowed to express) and isn't capable of being reciprocated (As Ray's punch in Mountie on the Bounty ended up being), then it strikes me as... beyond the pale. So where most people saw a 'loathsome cockroach' being put in his place, I saw a boy being dehumanised in order to inflict violence on him, as happens more literally in Goblet of Fire (and, of course, the words 'put in his/her/their place' always hit me badly).

And I'm used to looking at characters and asking, "Okay, what the fuck was that reaction for?" BtVS, as a general fandom, thought that Xander's parents were at least verbally abusive long before we heard about the fact on the show, because no one is that quick to the offensive with words unless they've had both reason and example (his harshness with Buffy in Prophecy Girl, when she turned him down, for example -- which he follows with, "I don't deal well with rejection. Funny, considering all the practice I've had.").

Draco's quick verbal manner and his drama queen tendencies speak of someone who is ignored at home unless he makes a big deal out of things. His reaction to Hermione (in the books, it's to the Dementors, which bring out memories in a more direct sence) is so extreme that it has to indicate prior trauma. No one would be that terrified of a wand unless they knew, first-hand, the damage that it can do. And that boy was terrified.

Which is why, if they do the bouncing ferret part of Goblet of Fire, I will be a) torn up inside and b) probably frothing at the mouth at the hordes of people who will find it funny. Because, god, the number of ways in which that scene breaks my heart and boils my blood... if there was ever a scene that confirmed my total and complete love for Draco, it was that one. He's abused by a teacher. Until he's wincing with pain. And he still tries to maintain a level of dignity, still tries to show that he's above it all (and can't, poor, sweet darling). And the worst part is that I know Tom Felton can pull it off and break my heart into even more pieces than Draco does just in the book, because the thin length of distance that I can put between myself and Draco when reading the books disappears when I can see his face and see his pain.

Then there's the matter of Harry punching Draco in the Order of the Phoenix and Draco never mentioning it again. He never taunts Harry about losing control. Then, he sees Harry with Snape and Harry has to allow stand the claim that he's in 'remedial Potions' and Harry mentions that he's sure that Draco will spread it around the school. Again, he never does. So he a) pretty much passively accepts Harry's violence on himself and b) doesn't humilate Harry unless, as has always been the case before, the knowledge is already well known. This last example is the only time that Draco has had something private over on Harry and he doesn't use it. He only uses public information to try to hurt Harry with.

Draco Malfoy is not a violent person. He's often verbally cruel, but he is almost never the person who introduces violence into a situation. It's Harry who escalates to threats of physical violence during the Remembrall incident. It's Hermione who does in the PoA 'mudblood' incident.

What's more, his words always show a marked lack of... reality. We hear him speak of bullying his father into buying him a racing broom in Philosopher's Stone and when we meet Lucius in Chamber of Secrets, we learn that he isn't the sort of father who's capable of that. Draco talks like a Dudley, but it's all talk. His father doesn't spoil him shamelessly, doesn't dote over him the way that Vernon and Petunia do over Dudley. We find out that he's a true-blue Slytherin and so what? Peter Pettigrew was almost certainly Gryffindor (since I can't see James and Sirius being friends with anything not in their own house and they come across as pure Gyrffindor -- besides, Dumbledore said it -- it takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends.) and Snape is Slytherin through and through.

Ron is the first person to be hurtful (to Draco on the train) -- he laughs at Draco's name and Draco's instinctive offensiveness tells me that he's heard people laugh at him before and he hates it. He immediately says all the mean things about Ron that he can think of. Then, of course, the famous Harry Potter chooses the Weasley Boy Who Laughed at Him. And the Weasley/Malfoy hate is two-sided (as proven by the Lucius/Authur fight in Chamber of Secrets, where we see where Ron became so easy with violence).

Neville complains about Malfoy using the leg-locker curse on him, but that's no worse than a lot of what the Weasley twins pull (oh, the Weasley twins -- I enjoyed their 'escape' scene in OotP as much as anyone, but I do not like them).

Again and again, Draco says words and people react with violence. Draco never, to my recollection, seems terribly surprised at this -- I expect his words have been met with violence before and once he's at Hogwarts, he knows that it's a possibility. Yet he continues to needle the very people that he knows will attack him. Draco tells on the Trio -- when they have, in fact, broken the rules of the school.

And Draco's terrified of Voldemort, the one time we see them together, in the unicorn blood-drinking scene in Philosopher's Stone. And, honestly, I wouldn't have been shocked if Draco scared Neville because he'd feel safer with the famous Boy Who Lived, even if that boy despised him.

And, of course, he brings in the horrid 'Mudblood' insult when Hermione's given what must feel to him an equal insult -- that he can't fly well enough to be on Slytherin's team. We know that Malfoy can fly well, and he must know that he can fly well, but he immediately gets verbally vicious when this possibility is mentioned, probably because he's afraid that it's true. That they let him on the team because of his father and because his father was expecting him to beat Harry Potter in something.

The only times that Draco is the one to introduce violence into the equation is when it's about his parents. That gets a huge reaction, which is very telling of Draco. His defense of his mother reminded me that his mother is the one in the family who does pamper him -- who wants him to go to Durmstrang so that he'll be closer and who sends him sweets. To attack Draco's mother is probably to attack the one person in the world who shows him unconditional love. And even in that case, it isn't a punch, but a curse. And the reaction by the fake Mad-Eye Moody eclipses any possible harm that Draco could have done. And his reaction to his father being placed in Azkaban... his father was put in prison. That's a horrible upset.

And the violence against Draco escalates with each book, as it becomes more and more obvious that he isn't a match for Harry (one of the really powerful wizards, to cast a strong Patronus at thirteen). And not only that, but Harry brings in other people to beat up Malfoy more, as if he needed more (which he didn't). And the fact that Harry thinks about how it's never right to mistreat someone for just being... unless, of course, it's Malfoy. Not realizing that there was probably a point when his father would have said the exact same thing with Snape in Malfoy's place And Malfoy is, often, mistreated for just being. Just being a brat, yes, but that's his personality. He's a brat. He probably wouldn't know how to be anything else at this point, nor does he have any reason to. Who would want to switch to such a violent side? Who'd want to be on the same side as the Weasley twins, who find laughs in playing practical jokes on so-called friends? On Dumbledore's side, who is fully willing to send children into mortal peril? On incompetent Hagrid's side? On the side of people who are, again, so very casually violent?

Whatever Draco faces... at home or wherever... that gave him such a strong reaction when he came up against the Dementors... he still has to think that it's better than what he'd be trading to, because he hasn't seen the worst of what Voldemort has to offer. Draco has, of the fifth book, never seen death. We know that for a fact.

Especially in comparision to Harry, Draco is such a little boy. Such a child.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-07 09:45 pm (UTC)
sperrywink: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sperrywink
Excellent continuation of your previous post about this. While the obvious is that Draco will side with the deatheaters, I wonder about the mixed signals he is sent. There are the downsides to the good guys you mentioned, but it was also Barry Couch acting as a deatheater who did the bouncing ferret incident and the scary incident with Voldemort drinking the unicorn's blood not to mention any abuse by his father. If he is aware of those connections, he must really feel the pull between a rock and a hard place.

When I first read the books I was appalled by the casual magical violence that was prevalent. Disolving bones and the Weasley Twins and whatnot. In order to enjoy the books I decided to take the view that magicians could be more tolerant of violence because less of it was permanent or even more than momentary if you use magic to fix it.

But if one assumes a punch in the magical world can be like a pinch in the mundane world and that is why magical kids are so cavalier about it, it raises interesting questions about Harry. Harry is growing up to be the abused kid that abuses other people and this ends up being encouraged in the magical world because they need him to fight Voldemort and because magicians can't see the mundane pathology behind Harry's actions and instead assume the normal magical worldview. But he is pathologically damaged and he lacks all control of his temper or his violence. Talk about PTSD after he vanquishes Voldemort.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-07 10:05 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I don't know... the mere fact that Draco never uses physical violence argues against it being a magical world difference. If it weren't a big deal, I can't see it being something that Draco wouldn't do. I can see it as the Weasley family being more tolerant of violence, but that's one family.

There are the downsides to the good guys you mentioned, but it was also Barry Couch acting as a deatheater who did the bouncing ferret incident and the scary incident with Voldemort drinking the unicorn's blood not to mention any abuse by his father.

But does he know about either of those cases? Did he ever find out about Crouch or that it was Voldemort in the woods?

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-07 10:15 pm (UTC)
sperrywink: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sperrywink
But Draco might have learned that a snide comment has less severe repercussions than an attak, magical or otherwise, considering who his fatehr is. And the teachers treat a remarkable array of incidents relatively calmly. All of Lockley's incompetence and Hagrid's dangerous creatures. You are right there might not be enough consistency to truly support the idea, but like I said, it does help mollify me to the main characters pointless violence.


But does he know about either of those cases? Did he ever find out about Crouch or that it was Voldemort in the woods?

See, I don't know and that is why I qualified my point. They do make a big deal out of Draco sneaking around, but we have no way of knowing what information he has gleamed from it. I'm just very interested in the possibility.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-07 10:23 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
But Draco might have learned that a snide comment has less severe repercussions than an attack, magical or otherwise, considering who his fatehr is. And the teachers treat a remarkable array of incidents relatively calmly. All of Lockley's incompetence and Hagrid's dangerous creatures. You are right there might not be enough consistency to truly support the idea, but like I said, it does help mollify me to the main characters pointless violence.

I actually do agree, to a point. There's a lot of evidence that violence is just less serious in the magical world (the impossibility of Lily and James dying in a car wreck comes to mind). But that doesn't make it less serious, as you pointed out above, when Harry and Hermione, products of the muggle world, so easily embrace that violence. Particulary when Draco isn't violent towards them.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-07 10:36 pm (UTC)
sperrywink: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sperrywink
The sad part is that I don't think Rowling has fully thought out any of these points so that they will never really be addressed as part of canon. Harry Potter ends up being the first fandom where I rejoice in fanon.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-07 11:51 pm (UTC)
ext_1771: Joe Flanigan looking A-Dorable. (Default)
From: [identity profile] monanotlisa.livejournal.com
What a gorgeous, benevolent analysis of Draco Malfoy-- not a lover of canon Draco but certainly a fan who thinks him a most intriguing character.
Cheers.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 03:24 am (UTC)
ext_6866: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
Word to this! I can't even watch The Punch in the commercials for PoA, and I also always looked away when Gandalf hit Denethor over the head in RotK. It's not that I can't ever stand violence, but not the kind of bullying violence for fun. Ironically I do write stuff with violence, but it's boy-wrestling violence, like the Three Stooges, not meant to be really vicious.

Anyway, I don't know if JKR intended this but it just seems to me, even knowing little about psychology, that she's created this character that screams PROBLEMS. He can't stop himself from begging for attention and doesn't seem to know the difference between good and bad. Many neglected children, for instance, later become abused because they act out to get attention and then get punished for it. Surely Draco doesn't want to get beaten up--we're told he's got a healthy fear of being hurt and he shows it--yet he's constantly running off his mouth sometimes until it gets him attacked. (Ron jumps him in PS/SS as well!)

I totally agree with you, too, on the way what he says always seems to be the opposite of what he feels--when he's afraid he makes a show of others being afraid (in the FF, with the Dementors) and his bragging about having his parents under his thumb seems completely false when we see the real thing.

In fact, I'm wondering if when we see more of Narcissa whether she will be doting or not. She could be alternately fawning and cruel for all we know. For instance, once when I was talking about the slap scene in PoA I was wondering about Draco's non-physical reaction, which didn't seem to be just about the wand. The person said that technically his reaction might imply, to a psychologist, that he's got issues with his mother, not that she's a doting one. I'll try to look up exactly what she said in case I'm getting it wrong, but I think the idea is that Draco sort of lashes out at Hermione because he gets angry at his mother for her neglect, then when she gets angry at him he cowers. When Mum gets angry she means business.

What I love in the pre-ferret scene is that as usual Harry doesn't just say Narcissa is ugly. What he says is that she looks like she's got a bad smell under her nose and asks if this is because she is with Draco. Later Draco's own weird insult to Harry almost mirrors that in OotP when he suggests Harry likes sniffing around the Weasleys because it reminds him of the way his mother smelled. In both cases on the surface it's just a "Yo Momma she ugly and smell bad!" but then there's this other stuff underneath.

Hmmm. That was a tangent. Erm, but basically his behavior throughout canon, where he seems to beg for negative attention, gets physically hurt and then comes back for more, is the pattern of kids who are mistreated. It's exactly the pattern many kids like that fall into. Obviously that doesn't prove Draco is literally abused, but his whole position in canon seems to me to be about his seeking attention and affection from people who hurt him. The one possible exception (not knowing about Narcissa yet) is Snape, but we don't know if that will end well.

The ferret scene, I think, stands out for his reaction. In PoA he's being a drama queen, but I don't think I can watch the ferret scene played for laughs. I hope JKR did that for a reason, and that that reason wasn't just to show that Moody=DE and therefore what he does isn't funny. But Draco's reaction in that scene is kind of symbolically his whole role in the series. I don't want to lose it.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 05:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] adinasauce.livejournal.com
Which is why, if they do the bouncing ferret part of Goblet of Fire, I will be a) torn up inside and b) probably frothing at the mouth at the hordes of people who will find it funny. Because, god, the number of ways in which that scene breaks my heart and boils my blood... if there was ever a scene that confirmed my total and complete love for Draco, it was that one. He's abused by a teacher. Until he's wincing with pain. And he still tries to maintain a level of dignity, still tries to show that he's above it all (and can't, poor, sweet darling). And the worst part is that I know Tom Felton can pull it off and break my heart into even more pieces than Draco does just in the book, because the thin length of distance that I can put between myself and Draco when reading the books disappears when I can see his face and see his pain.

Wow. I'm here via [livejournal.com profile] wickedcherub, and I'm glad she linked you. You just took the words right out of my head and put them in print. Amazing. I'm dreading that scene, too.

In fact, it was that moment in canon when my dislike for Ron fully solidified. That something that crassly violent could be such a great memory? I mean, yes, Draco had said many nasty things about the Weasley's and Ron in particular - but to relish his pain like that was just.. almost sickening.

Mere words can hurt, and I speak from personal experience here; but I've never truly wanted to see any of my past tormentors physically injured. In fact, if I ever reached the point where I'd be HAPPY that someone who was verbally cruel to me was beat up, or hit by a car, I'd be extremely ashamed of myself.

Thanks for writing this. I agree wholeheartedly.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 08:20 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I am afraid of that. But when I think of the terrified look on Draco's face -- someone told Tom how scared to be, just like someone told him in CoS that Lucius was an abusive father-type.

The problem lies in Rowling's vision of the heroic Gryffindor -- she's admitted (in some interview, blasted if I can remember where) that bravery is, basically, her prime virtue, what she bases 'goodness' on. Personally, I would, as the New Testament of the Bible does, choose 'charity' or 'love' as the most solid base for goodness.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 08:21 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Thanks.

I do adore the kid, warts and all. He's definitely my favorite Potter-verse character (Harry himself coming in second).

ack! mis-typed tag alert in last comment

Date: 2004-06-08 08:33 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Word to this! I can't even watch The Punch in the commercials for PoA, and I also always looked away when Gandalf hit Denethor over the head in RotK. It's not that I can't ever stand violence, but not the kind of bullying violence for fun.

I watched it, but like someone looking at a car accident -- it's too horrifying to look away. I couldn't take my eyes off Draco's face.

Surely Draco doesn't want to get beaten up--we're told he's got a healthy fear of being hurt and he shows it--yet he's constantly running off his mouth sometimes until it gets him attacked. (Ron jumps him in PS/SS as well!)

God, yes. He definitely seems to live in the space where any attention is good, no matter what sort, as long at means that someone is paying attention.

In fact, I'm wondering if when we see more of Narcissa whether she will be doting or not. She could be alternately fawning and cruel for all we know. For instance, once when I was talking about the slap scene in PoA I was wondering about Draco's non-physical reaction, which didn't seem to be just about the wand. The person said that technically his reaction might imply, to a psychologist, that he's got issues with his mother, not that she's a doting one.

Very ouchy and a very good point. I desperately want Draco to have One Good Parent, but after the revelation of her being a good Black sister, this seems less and less likely. And considering his incredibly insecurity, I do tend to doubt that he's had unconditional love at any point in his life. But I just want him to and I'll force myself to believe that he does until proven otherwise, because the tragedy of Draco Malfoy is already grim enough at this point.

Erm, but basically his behavior throughout canon, where he seems to beg for negative attention, gets physically hurt and then comes back for more, is the pattern of kids who are mistreated. It's exactly the pattern many kids like that fall into. Obviously that doesn't prove Draco is literally abused, but his whole position in canon seems to me to be about his seeking attention and affection from people who hurt him. The one possible exception (not knowing about Narcissa yet) is Snape, but we don't know if that will end well.

No, we don't. *shivers* Because yes, Snape seems to like him enough, but his dad's on the wrong side. And I don't see Snape choosing Draco over anything important.

The ferret scene, I think, stands out for his reaction. In PoA he's being a drama queen, but I don't think I can watch the ferret scene played for laughs. I hope JKR did that for a reason, and that that reason wasn't just to show that Moody=DE and therefore what he does isn't funny. But Draco's reaction in that scene is kind of symbolically his whole role in the series. I don't want to lose it.

Considering that she has come out as a Mustelidae fan, I do have a tiny bit of hope. Ferrets are so playful with a vicious undertone. I've always thought that the transformation was such a perfect choice -- Draco is a ferret, for good and bad. And I've always liked ferrets. When I volunteered at the zoo, for the small animals section, the ferrets were the most interesting animals. They played and wandered and were just plain fun. Yes, you had to be as careful with them as with any of the other animals, but they were willing to interact with people on a level that the other animals just weren't interested in.

Ferrets are damn cool.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 08:39 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
In fact, it was that moment in canon when my dislike for Ron fully solidified. That something that crassly violent could be such a great memory? I mean, yes, Draco had said many nasty things about the Weasley's and Ron in particular - but to relish his pain like that was just.. almost sickening.

It's very Weasley of him. For all Draco's "I want Granger to be the one to die" show in CoS, he makes an interesting choice in GoF in warning the Trio about the muggle-taunting. I don't think that Draco does seriously wish actual, lasting harm on anyone until, perhaps, after his father is put in jail, and I even have a question mark after that.

Mere words can hurt, and I speak from personal experience here; but I've never truly wanted to see any of my past tormentors physically injured. In fact, if I ever reached the point where I'd be HAPPY that someone who was verbally cruel to me was beat up, or hit by a car, I'd be extremely ashamed of myself.

Oh, god, so agreed. I've had my share of verbal taunting (and more) in the past, but though I've wished karmic retribution ('may he never go to college' was a dearly held wish of mine for one particularly horrid boy), I've never wished physical harm.

Thanks for writing this. I agree wholeheartedly.

You're welcome. I'm just thrilled that there are other people who think that these things are horrifying.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 09:28 am (UTC)
ext_1771: Joe Flanigan looking A-Dorable. (Default)
From: [identity profile] monanotlisa.livejournal.com
*g* I'm a Hermione fan through and through. Slightly scary, to recognise oneself so much in a character. But Harry's cool as well, if his teenage tantrums in OOTP got on my nerves. Only Ron-- well, don't get me started.

And God, I adore Remus Lupin. In a Must-Cuddle-Poor-Man-Now way. & ;-)

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 09:52 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
No, tell me about Ron! I really want to know. I do. I'm not a big fan, so feel free to say whatever! Because I'm all curious now!

(and I, too, adore Remus. He needs a hug, yo.)

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 11:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] burakkupansa.livejournal.com
I was linked this via a friends journal, and as Draco is my favourite character, I just wanted to say thanks, this is a great analogy!
Aside from inspiring me to re-read the books and (over)analyse Draco's reactions, it's made me think more about his initial reactions to things that happen.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 12:34 pm (UTC)
ext_1771: Joe Flanigan looking A-Dorable. (Default)
From: [identity profile] monanotlisa.livejournal.com
Heh. Read my last post? Evil temptress, you. & ;-)

No, tell me about Ron! I really want to know. I do. I'm not a big fan, so feel free to say whatever! Because I'm all curious now!

I think he bugs me for all the reasons that make Harry like him so much: he's the quintessential ordinary boy, he's securely and exclusively entrenched in the wizarding world, and he's a loyal if jealous friend.

Clearly, my personal preferences for certain types of fictional characters overshadow any sort of objective judgement, but Ron has, to me, always had the mark of a follower, of someone who *re*acts, of someone small.

It's not that he's stupid-- he's not, judging from his proficiency at chess and his still decent grades-- but there is both too little understanding and too little a desire to even try to understand bigger concepts and the greater scheme of things. He doesn't *reflect* enough for my liking and simply isn't mentally adventurous enough to make me take notice of his positive traits.

His behaviour towards Draco fits neatly into this scheme, of course...

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 12:51 pm (UTC)
ext_2233: Writing MamaDeb (Default)
From: [identity profile] mamadeb.livejournal.com
I came here through a chain of two journals.

I think you have some valid points - Draco is rarely physically violent, although he did start the fight in OotP. He had to know that the Weasleys would react that way when their parents were insulted (and can you really blame them?)

But I'm thinking about the Slytherin team. What a brilliant move for Lucius. By buying Draco's place on the team, he both gives the boy what he wants while completely undercutting his confidance. Draco probably is a good Seeker - Slytherin wins in most games they play against the other Houses - but he can never know if he would have made the team otherwise. I suspect that the original Seeker was kicked off to make room for him, too. So now every time he loses, and especially every time he loses to Gryffindor, or Slytherin loses the Quidditch cup, Lucius can make him feel even worse. Why he wants to do that to his brilliant son is anyone's guess - maybe he doesn't want a rival.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 02:43 pm (UTC)
ext_6866: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
Which fight in OotP does he start? I mean, he goes for his wand at the end, which I saw as being like him throwing the curse in GoF. It's fighting...I do feel like there's a difference between magical and physical fighting somehow, even in this universe.

ITA on Lucius buying the brooms being the perfect way to undercut Draco's confidence, though I must say I've just never been able to buy that Hermione is correct in saying he literally bought himself onto the team, particularly with the added idea that the old Seeker was kicked off. I mean, obviously Draco is perfectly capable so didn't literally need to be bought onto the team, but I just feel like we'd hear about it if he had. Where is the angry Slytherin who was kicked off? Why isn't the school all talking about how Blaise Zabini is far better but Draco's on the team anyway?

It's like...for me it seems like you can only have it one way or the other: either he's a serious competitor that we're looking down on because he got that way through money (leaving aside that Harry, too, flies a superior broom) or that we're looking down on him because he is there taking the place away from someone who is better. It seems like if it were the latter case we should see that, see the Slytherins being frustrated by him, see him messing up--basically, he should be a bit like Ron in OotP where it's obvious he should really be on the team. JMO.

Re: ack! mis-typed tag alert in last comment

Date: 2004-06-08 03:57 pm (UTC)
ext_23139: Susan/G'Kar (Default)
From: [identity profile] alicamel.livejournal.com
The one possible exception (not knowing about Narcissa yet) is Snape, but we don't know if that will end well.

No, we don't. *shivers* Because yes, Snape seems to like him enough, but his dad's on the wrong side. And I don't see Snape choosing Draco over anything important.


Ironically, because Snape's on the good side, Harry has to be more important because he's the one that can defeat Voldemort. If Snape had been neutral or still in league with the DE, he might have been the 'good parent' for Draco which would have given him a chance choosing not to join the DE... but Snape has/will chose Harry over Draco. With Snape being possibly the only person (without knowing about Narcissa) who gives Draco attention without hurting him, I can imagine that hitting Draco hard.

Of course Snape/Draco/Narcissa may yet surprise us.

I think I just repeated what you said. Oh well. Thanks for the charcter study (here and in other posts), it's very insightful and a joy to read. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 08:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rane-ab.livejournal.com
I got here via [livejournal.com profile] daily_snitch. Hi. :D I've never really liked Draco, but wow, you're actually making me soften up towards him. :-) However, if Harry sees Draco entirely from the 'bad' POV, I think you're taking Draco's defence a bit far, too.

Where does Draco react strongly towards the Dementors? The only thing we know is that he came running into F & G's compartment, and you'll excuse me saying this, but Draco's a coward, so that doesn't much surprise me. The fact that he was still able to run at all seems to imply that he can't have been that heavily affected.

And yes, Draco is all talk, but he's still a bastard in what he does with words. Oh, I'll agree Ron was the first to laugh at Draco on the Hogwarts Express. Hagrid, though, never did anything to him. The way he laughed about Hagrid's feelings made me gnash my teeth, I assure you. While I completely agree Hermione's punching him is unjustified in the movie, her slap in the book seemed entirely deserved to me. In the first book Draco sets up a midnight duel and doesn't show up. It may be proof that he avoids confrontation, but it also proves that he finds other ways to reach his goals. Yes, he usually pulls the shortest end of the straw where battling the trio is concerned -- but then, it's only his bad luck that they're so much better at this kind of thing than he is. He's usually the one initiating the arguments. And he happily abuses his power as a member of Umbridge's gang.

Perhaps Lucius doesn't spoil Draco rotten, exactly. He doesn't jump at Draco's every whim, but for as far as I know, Draco does have the best of everything, though it seems Lucius is the one deciding what it is that Draco needs. However, I highly doubt Lucius would hurt Draco in any way -- returning to that scene in CoS; Draco is practically nagging at Lucius for a present, or whining, at the very least. Lucius seems tolerant in a vaguely impatient way (and he's got reason to be impatient, given that he's trying to get rid of all the illegal stuff in his mansion). Narcissa sends him all sorts of candy. Presumably she cares enough about him not to want to send him away to Durmstrang, though even I find that that sounds suspicious; there may be ulterior motives at play, there.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-08 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rane-ab.livejournal.com
The argument about Draco never using physical violence seems… well, it just doesn't seem as significant to me. He never hits people, as such, not even if he gets hit first, but then he's a) a wizard and b) a pureblood wizard, and proud of that. A wizard hardly ever needs to use his hands or fists -- he's got a wand to defend himself. The only time someone hasn't, is when they're too young to have a wand. Now, the Weasleys use physical violence in OotP, but then they're a large family, and they are likely to have had brawls as children -- Draco, for as far as we know, is an only child. And I can well imagine the Malfoys would view such physical violence as beneath them, something Muggles might do. Basically, I think Draco abhors that kind of physical violence and quite simply doesn't know how to handle it.

As for not using his wand: I think that Draco's a bit frightened that he mightn't be able to win such a fight. I think Draco's afraid to get hurt if he loses. He prefers to win in a more roundabout way.

Now, this, too, I have no proof for, and I don't know what goes on in Draco's head. I just think that all his behaviour isn't necessarily the result of some trauma. Draco probably isn't as one-dimensional as we're made to believe, from Harry's POV. But even if Draco does feel victimised, even if there is something in his past that makes him behave the way he does, even if he really does only use words -- it still doesn't excuse his behaviour. It explains it, sure, but it doesn't excuse it. Just like psychological background doesn't excuse Snape's behaviour, or James's, or Sirius's, or even Harry's, for that matter. (For the record: I like both Snape and Harry. However, I still think Snape's a horrible bastard, and Harry really should take a good look at himself from time to time.) Come to think of it, Snape's never used any physical violence towards his students (unless you count his reaction towards Harry in OotP, but I rather thought that was justified…), either, but he's still a mean, petty teacher. Draco's never directly used physical violence, but he's still an arrogant little sod, who will try anything to win whatever argument he's gotten himself into, and with no apparent respect for others.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-09 12:04 am (UTC)
ext_2233: Writing MamaDeb (Default)
From: [identity profile] mamadeb.livejournal.com
Which fight in OotP does he start?

After the first Quidditch game. He gratuitously hurls insults at the Weasleys and, most especially, their parents. It would take more selfcontrol than most adolescent boys could ever possess to not respond to that, and Draco knew it. He deliberately goaded them.

I'm not saying that Draco doesn't belong on the team. He's an excellent Seeker, from what we've seen, so it's probable he would have gotten on, either that year if there were an opening or in some future one if there wasn't. It's too much of a coincidence that the team all of a sudden acquired new, top of the line brooms *and* just happened to choose the son of the man who bought them as Seeker, and it's clear Rowling wants us to come to that conclusion. And Lucius is powerful enough that it's unlikely that any Slytherin grumbles would be made public, even from a displaced Seeker - for that matter, I can't see Slytherin making inhouse disputes public. It's to their interest to present a united front.

Assuming there was no Seeker to displace, and knowing that Draco is good enough to make the team without influence, *why* would Lucius buy brooms for the *entire* team? Surely a Nimbus 2001 for Draco would have been sufficient. I can only come up with a few explanations - Lucius doesn't trust his son's ability to get there on his own; Lucius wants to keep control over Draco by not allowing him to know for certain if he would have made it or not, Lucius wants to expand his influence by using the parents of the other boys on the team. That last is the least damaging to Draco, but he'd still wonder if he'd make it on by his own merit.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-09 02:49 am (UTC)
ext_6866: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
He deliberately goaded them.

Oh, I defintely think he goaded them--just that since butterfly was talking about being the first person to use violence I thought that didn't count. He doesn't hit them, that is. Not that this takes away that he is goading them.

I'm not saying that Draco doesn't belong on the team.

Oh, I didn't think you were saying that. I agree that Lucius buying the brooms and Draco's getting on the team are related--I'm just not sure it's a given which one was first. I know JKR might want us to think that, it just doesn't really ring true for me. So in the version in my head the brooms probably weren't so blatant as Lucius saying, "Put my kid on and you'll get brooms," even if it sweetened the pot. Which I guess is basically what you're saying anyway, so I'm agreeing.:-)

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-09 08:18 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I pretty much agree with all that. Ron's smart enough, but he isn't a thinker.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-09 08:19 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I'm thinking of re-reading the books just for the little character things -- most of which JK may not even be aware build up some very interesting people (the Weasleys, who disturb me, for one).

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-09 08:22 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I think you have some valid points - Draco is rarely physically violent, although he did start the fight in OotP. He had to know that the Weasleys would react that way when their parents were insulted (and can you really blame them?)

Yes. But you can blame anyone for anything. Honestly, I wouldn't attack someone for insulting my family -- I wouldn't attack someone for insulting me (and since I've been in the situation, I do know that for a fact). That's not the way that I'm wired. It is the way that the Weasleys are. So, I suppose I can't, because they act in a manner consistent with their individual personalities and their upbringing.

As does Draco.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-09 08:27 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I got here via daily_snitch. Hi. :D I've never really liked Draco, but wow, you're actually making me soften up towards him. :-) However, if Harry sees Draco entirely from the 'bad' POV, I think you're taking Draco's defence a bit far, too.

I'm focusing on the parts of him that I find interesting, the parts that I don't see as much talk about. To understand him, I do have to try to see from his eyes as much as possible.

Where does Draco react strongly towards the Dementors? The only thing we know is that he came running into F & G's compartment, and you'll excuse me saying this, but Draco's a coward, so that doesn't much surprise me. The fact that he was still able to run at all seems to imply that he can't have been that heavily affected.

F&G may have been exaggerating about the extent of his reaction. We don't know. Fleeing in fear is an established Draco trait, though, whereas Harry is decidedly not the running away sort, so their respective reactions would make sense in either case.

And yes, Draco is all talk, but he's still a bastard in what he does with words. Oh, I'll agree Ron was the first to laugh at Draco on the Hogwarts Express. Hagrid, though, never did anything to him. The way he laughed about Hagrid's feelings made me gnash my teeth, I assure you. While I completely agree Hermione's punching him is unjustified in the movie, her slap in the book seemed entirely deserved to me. In the first book Draco sets up a midnight duel and doesn't show up. It may be proof that he avoids confrontation, but it also proves that he finds other ways to reach his goals. Yes, he usually pulls the shortest end of the straw where battling the trio is concerned -- but then, it's only his bad luck that they're so much better at this kind of thing than he is. He's usually the one initiating the arguments. And he happily abuses his power as a member of Umbridge's gang.

Well, once Harry's his 'enemy', Draco does looks out for ways to annoy him. This is because Draco is, indeed, a petty brat.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-09 08:31 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
But even if Draco does feel victimised, even if there is something in his past that makes him behave the way he does, even if he really does only use words -- it still doesn't excuse his behaviour.

I don't think that Draco feels victimised, whether or not he has been. I'm sure that he thinks of himself as the lucky one, the smart one, the one on the right side.

Nothing excuses behavior, but everything explains it. Things happen and people react in various ways. I'm just interested in finding out the whys of the reactions. It doesn't always (or even usually) mean that I think that their reasoning is good, but if someone reacts in a certain way, then, for them, the cause was sufficient, because it wouldn't happen if they didn't feel that way.

The cause is always sufficient, because it made the effect happen. For Draco Malfoy, insulting his honor is an attack worthy of a racial-level insult in return. I don't think that that's a good thing, but I think that it's interesting.

Re: *waves*

Date: 2004-06-14 08:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] guza.livejournal.com
Hi, I hope you don't mind a stranger commenting on your journal. I came here by following various links - I'm not even really sure which ones anymore.

I couldn't resist leaving a comment since Draco is my favourite character and when someone writes a brilliant analysis/essay about him, my heart just... swells. It makes me so happy. :)

"His defense of his mother reminded me that his mother is the one in the family who does pamper him"

I hope I'm not repeating anyone, but actually I think that scene could be read in a different way: that Narcisssa isn't exactly the model mother and that Draco reacts badly to Harry's taunt/insult because he is, on some level (subconscious or not), afraid that what Harry is saying is true - that Narcissa does in fact look like she has something smelly under her nose because she is with Draco. That she doesn't love him as much as she should.

It all comes back to his insecurities again. I'm hoping that this is not the true situation, but I think it's a definite possibility. Or maybe I'm just overanalysing thing.

In any case, thanks for writing this! :) It made for very interesting reading.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-19 04:17 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hi! I hope you don't mind a comment that's both from a stranger, and very late!

I think you're right on a lot of points, Harry is growing up to be the abused kid who is in turn abusive to others. I cringed through OotP, and I really hope he gets over it. (Gah!)

And Draco is sympathetic to a point. I mean, I think you're right about all the things you said about his home life, and how he see's Harry's gang.

BUT

I think he's been working very hard to be a thug, and he's really getting there. What is a cry for help from a boy is DANGEROUS from a man, and by the end of Phoenix I was starting to find him very frightening.

Especially if he stops playing around in the next book, and starts to be truly vicious. I think at this point JKR's established that he's ready to take the gloves off, so to speak, and become a real threat.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-06-22 07:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] endless--dreams.livejournal.com
Thank you for repeating what I've been telling my friends all these years. I never really thought much of Draco Malfoy up until a couple years ago when I participated in a Draco angst fanfiction challenge, and I just found how easily it came to me to write angst for him. I reread the books, and my heart cried out for him when Hermione punched him in the third book. That was NOTHING compared to how sick I felt after reading about Moody turning him into a ferret.

A ferret. How much more demeaning can you get? And not only that, but bouncing him around...and laughing. You're a TEACHER. What exactly are you teaching by turning students into various animals for your own amusement?

It's not very fair for Draco in the books. He always finds himself at the wrong end of the wand, and never seems to do the cursing himself. Yes, he attacks with words, but only to make himself feel superior to everyone around him when he feels he's deficient in some way.

I remember the first time this subject had been brought up in my circle of real life friends and I mentioned, "Oh, I like Draco." Suddenly, all these pairs of eyes are on me. "You like Draco? Draco Malfoy? But he's so mean..."

At the time, I wish I had what you wrote so I could show it to them, because it words perfectly about how I think of Draco (as can probably be told from this growing comment ;) ). So thanks for writing this!

I know you wrote it awhile ago, sorry...

Alison

P.S. And I loved especially what you said about Tom Felton. He's so great in that part. He can do cool, suave Draco and go to pained Draco in the next line. I enjoyed him in "The Prisoner of Azkaban", and I'm confident he's going to do such a great job in the new movies :)

P.P.S. Thanks for letting me rant in your journal (although you didn't really have a choice in the matter, sorry...;) )

Re: *waves*

Date: 2004-09-05 08:45 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Hey, I know that you commented a while back, but I just wanted to let you know that I did read your comment and thought it was very interesting.

I agree that Draco is much more insecure than he'd ever let on (though I think that of most, if not all, people who attack others). Draco is a tidy bundle of insecurity and resentment.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-09-05 08:46 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I think that he does have the potential to become dangerous. But so does Harry. And Harry has more power and more influence than Draco could dream of.

It wasn't Harry who was cursed into a mass of sluggish flesh at the end of the book, after all.

(no subject)

Date: 2004-09-05 08:47 am (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Oh, hey, always feel free to talk in my journal (and I'm sorry that I didn't get back to you sooner). It's never bad to run across another intelligent Draco fan.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-05-23 07:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com
I'm (finally) tipping my toes into the Potterverse fandom, and so, have been catching up on all kinds of meta, which accounts for the almost one year lag between this comment and my reply. *g* But I was interested in what you say here:

Assuming there was no Seeker to displace, and knowing that Draco is good enough to make the team without influence, *why* would Lucius buy brooms for the *entire* team? Surely a Nimbus 2001 for Draco would have been sufficient. I can only come up with a few explanations - Lucius doesn't trust his son's ability to get there on his own; Lucius wants to keep control over Draco by not allowing him to know for certain if he would have made it or not, Lucius wants to expand his influence by using the parents of the other boys on the team. That last is the least damaging to Draco, but he'd still wonder if he'd make it on by his own merit.

In some ways, this action of Lucius reminds me of the kind of crap Lionel Luthor would pull over on SV, where he goes on and on about the superiority of the Luthors to everything and everyone around them, yet simultaneously does things to undercut Lex's confidence/strength/advantages.

By my lights, it's the kind of thing that goes back to Philip and Alexander: Powerful men want to shape their sons in their own image, but the downside is that they realize that if they are successful at it, then their sons will, ideally, eventually *surpass* them. So men like Philip and Lionel and Lucius, who are cunning and clever enough to understand that in a way they're ... creating their own displacement in the seat of power via their sons, will then engage in all sorts of things that act as checks and balances on their sons getting too powerful, too fast; they want sons worthy of the family name/dynasty/power, but they're smart enough to know that in shaping that, they're also shaping *rivals* for the power.

Draco Malfoy isn't going to be the wizard Harry Potter is, but I certainly think there are clues in canon which suggest that Draco could nevertheless end up a gifted wizard in his own right. We know he *can* effortlessly throw spells and incantations, as evidenced by his dueling with Harry in both CoS and GoF; we know he *arrived* at Hogarts with the ability to control a broom and fly it *well* despite only being 11. There are suggestions that Snape values him as a student, and I don't see Snape valuing anyone as a student unless they showed *more than* basic competence at wizardy and witchcraft, and while it's inconclusive how much of a factor grades play in one's selection as prefect, it's arguable they count for something; Draco's selection as the Slytherin prefect in OotP at least suggests he's getting decent to good grades in his studies.

If Lucius senses this potential in him - that he could become a genuinely strong and powerful wizard - then Lucius is going to both appreciate *and* fear that potentiality. Like Lionel, who started realizing after he sent Lex to Smallville that he had, in fact, raised a force to be reckoned, Lucius is going to (a) make note of it and (b) foster it while also (c) undercutting it as a means of controlling it until the point where he's ready to be eclipsed. Which, like all men with any kind of power they value and don't want to lose, won't be until he's got no choice but to die.

(no subject)

Date: 2005-05-23 10:32 pm (UTC)
ext_2233: Writing MamaDeb (Default)
From: [identity profile] mamadeb.livejournal.com
There are a lot of parallels between Smallville and HP (note: Harry's a dark haired green-eyed boy with superpowers raised by normal people.)

The main difference between the Luthors and the Malfoys is that while Lex is in rebellion against his father, Draco is still in the phase where he worships his father and doesn't see how his father is both encouraging and discouraging him (he got the second highest in his year, which is impressive and shows that he is talented and a good student, but a Muggleborn came in first and therefore he failed.) But Draco starts out ten years younger than Lex and has far, far less trauma in his life.

Be interesting to see if Draco manages to break free of his father.

Profile

butterfly: (Default)
butterfly

April 2019

S M T W T F S
 123456
78 910 111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
282930    

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios