random fandom thoughts

[butterfly]

One of the things that I love about the Scooby circle-conversation in Chosen is that it does feel a touch staged -- this is how they want to remember each other, should they die. They want to remember the joking and caring and being with each other as who they are. A place where past pains are acknowledged but never the thing that matters -- what matters is that they're together and they're making plans for tomorrow. It's a deliberate show of faith and hope on the parts of the individuals involved -- "We'll live through this and go shopping. We'll live through this and make inappropriate jokes and exasperate Giles and be young and carefree. And if we don't, we will always remember having this. This is who we chose to be, together."

So, Buffy is my hopeful ending. I always wanted it to end with hope, with a future, with my girl happy. All throughout the series, all I really wanted for Buffy was for her to be happy.

It's an interesting contrast with Angel. I always thought it would be nice if Angel got to be happy, but... he's not much of a happy guy, to be honest. The endings to both shows feel so utterly appropriate for what the shows were. If Buffy's ending made me look toward the future, Angel's made me look toward the current moment. Finally, I can name what I've gotten from Angel -- the fight. That's what Angel's about, in the end. It's about the good fight, about fighting even with your last breath, about finding a reason to fight, even when the battle is impossible. Because sometimes winning isn't as important as fighting. And, as in Buffy, the fight isn't about guns or swords, but about pain and fear and the monster on the inside.

Lord of the Rings is bittersweet, yet ultimately satisfying. Like really good dark chocolate (not the second-rate American stuff). Every win comes at a great cost, and the battle is won not by armies but by mercy and love.

due South is my happy, romantic ending. I smile just thinking about it. It makes me happy in this supremely uncomplicated way, despite being a show that contains both great complications and great darkness, though neither are touched on as often as they might have been in another show. To continue the food analogy, due South is a long, cold drink of the purest water in the world on the hottest day in summer.

I don't know what Stargate is yet. I know that it doesn't slid into any of the categories mentioned above. I think... I think that it might be the friendship thing. Never have I read a fandom where I've been so willing to read gen fic and not feel like I'm settling. I can read a fic with Jack and Daniel sharing 'only' a strong friendship without feeling like something's missing, like they should be having sex. In all my other set of 'friends to lovers' fic reads, I want to see the transition. I feel a bit ripped off if they don't shift out of friendship and start taking off clothes. With Jack and Daniel, they can snark and tease and keep all their clothes on and I'm still happy. Watching their relationship on the show makes me incredibly happy. I can go either way with them, friends or lovers. With, for example, Fraser and RayK, I always feel like they need to be physically together, because they have... when I see them onscreen together, I ache for them to be a little closer, touch longer, and blur the line further. That's the way I am with most of my pairings -- I feel like they need to be closer, because they would be happier if they would only touch and kiss and be together. Jack and Daniel are so incredibly... together, whether or not they're a couple. They've been through death and life and everything that the universe can possible throw at them. They speak in unison and share ideas (starting from the movie). They argue and make up. They have fundamental differences regarding the way they view the world and they work it out, bridge by bridge.

It's absolutely gorgeous to watch, but I don't have a name for it yet.


Category V - The Lone
Wolf

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Comments

[jodiac.livejournal.com]

I don't know enough to comment on the other endings, but your point on Chosen and the staged-ness of the circle conversation made me all nostaglic. And this:

Finally, I can name what I've gotten from Angel -- the fight. That's what Angel's about, in the end. It's about the good fight, about fighting even with your last breath, about finding a reason to fight, even when the battle is impossible.

This is so beautifully put. Thank you!

[xander-harris.livejournal.com]

It's about the good fight, about fighting even with your last breath, about finding a reason to fight, even when the battle is impossible.

My dear sweet amazing Butterfly.

Nothing is impossible.

Improbable maybe...but never impossible. *holds up sword* now I'm going to go kill that dragon to piss of Angel. *winks*

Hi

[blackholedebris.livejournal.com]

Hey, just noticed that I'm on your friends list. Not sure why, but I'm assuming it's a Stargate thing. If that's not the case, then, uh, never mind. But I skimmed through the recent entries on your journal and I find you have interesting thoughts on fandoms I'm into. So...cool. I added you. :)

Also: I was so relieved and happy that Buffy ended on such a hopeful note. Because to me that show is about everyone pulling out of the sadness. Eventually. It's about having a future. Angel, on the other hand. Well. I would've been cool about the finale if one thing didn't happen. Lindsey. How could they? How could Angel? Buffy never would've done that. That's why I'll always love her more. And I was so happy for her in the end. My heart ached for her. That smile.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Oh, you're very welcome. I adore my Joss-shows (I can't even talk about how horrible and yet appropriate the ending of Firefly was... because, yes, Big Damn Movie.).

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

True, there's always that sliver of hope that Scoobies and Slayers will come over the rooftops, brandishing weapons.

Re: Hi

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Hey, just noticed that I'm on your friends list. Not sure why, but I'm assuming it's a Stargate thing.

It is, yeah, totally. Hi! I'm bad at introducing myself.

I was so relieved and happy that Buffy ended on such a hopeful note. Because to me that show is about everyone pulling out of the sadness. Eventually. It's about having a future.

It was. It is. It's all about the sun shining down and the road open before her.

Angel, on the other hand. Well. I would've been cool about the finale if one thing didn't happen. Lindsey. How could they? How could Angel? Buffy never would've done that. That's why I'll always love her more. And I was so happy for her in the end. My heart ached for her. That smile.

She wouldn't. In fact, she didn't (Andrew). But Angel, unlike Buffy, has blood on his hands. As Buffy said in Sanctuary, she can't join his club of murderers. Angel has blood on his hands, the blood of potential change. That's the biggest difference between them and why Angel ends fighting and Buffy ends having won a battle. Buffy is fighting for a future for herself, Angel is fighting because fighting is all he can do to hold back the tide.

Angel's a tragic character, but most tragedies are brought about by the main characters flaws.

Re: Hi

[blackholedebris.livejournal.com]

I'm kinda bad at introducing myself, too. I tend to just appear out of nowhere and post a reply or add to my friends list, even though I really was just lurking before making myself known. I'm always a little afraid someone might not like me doing that.

She wouldn't. In fact, she didn't (Andrew).

Yeah, I was really glad Andrew was on Buffy instead of Angel, for that reason. Even though Andrew did a horrible thing, I still loved his character. That is, after we got to know him better and see him fully integrated into the group of people Buffy lives/fights evil with. The example that also comes to mind is Ben. Buffy would've given him a chance at a real life, but then Giles went and "took care of things" behind her back. Bad Giles. But Giles really drives home what makes Buffy Buffy in his speech to Ben, why she's a true hero.

As Buffy said in Sanctuary, she can't join his club of murderers. I vaguely remember her saying something like this, but I can't remember what episode or the context. But it's certainly true. Buffy's very clear on what she will and will not do, while Angel and the others have this constant flipping back and forth. I like most of the characters on Angel because they are so compelling for often different reasons than the Scoobies. I still miss both shows very much. But I loved Buffy the series more for its bigger emphasis on hope and family, because when all is said and done, I'm an optimist.

Re: Hi

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was really glad Andrew was on Buffy instead of Angel, for that reason. Even though Andrew did a horrible thing, I still loved his character. That is, after we got to know him better and see him fully integrated into the group of people Buffy lives/fights evil with. The example that also comes to mind is Ben. Buffy would've given him a chance at a real life, but then Giles went and "took care of things" behind her back. Bad Giles. But Giles really drives home what makes Buffy Buffy in his speech to Ben, why she's a true hero.

And seriously, couldn't there have been another way? There might have been another way. But he didn't look because he didn't feel as though they had time and because, ultimately, Giles can embrace the idea that it's okay to trade one life for the world. He was willing to let it happen with Dawn, and he was willing to let it happen with Ben. Like Angel, he's too jaded sometimes. He set up Spike to die and I'm still surprised at how surprised some people were by that. Giles thought that Spike was causing Buffy's priorities to be fucked up -- of course, Giles had no clue about the extent of Buffy's issues with Spike. He knew about the sex, but not about the attempted rape. For Buffy, this was not about letting fluffy-bunny feelings overcome her better instincts, it was about letting her better instincts overcome dead-bunny feelings. Buffy knows from experience that she should trust her instincts. It's saved her life countless times. So, if her instincts say that Spike is important in this world-saving gig, it's probably true. And it was.

I vaguely remember her saying something like this, but I can't remember what episode or the context. But it's certainly true. Buffy's very clear on what she will and will not do, while Angel and the others have this constant flipping back and forth. I like most of the characters on Angel because they are so compelling for often different reasons than the Scoobies. I still miss both shows very much. But I loved Buffy the series more for its bigger emphasis on hope and family, because when all is said and done, I'm an optimist.

Context? Kinda bitchy. She's just found Faith in Angel's arms (when she went to L.A. to try and save Angel from being hurt by Faith) and he was protecting Faith from her. She was bitter and hurt and acting out. But it's still a true statement.

My favorite heroes tend to have strong, internally-driven moral codes. They try to react from their better instincts. And I do think that most people (excepting sociopaths and people raised in enviroments utterly lacking in any positive influence in regards to ethics) know right from wrong. I certainly do, even when I am doing the wrong thing. Possibly especially when I am.

Just that a lot of people ignore the twist in their heart until it fades to being barely noticable. Or they bury it in various addictions. But most people do know.

Re: Hi

[blackholedebris.livejournal.com]

I fully believe that Ben honestly wanted a chance at a normal life, and had Giles let him live he would have been perfectly happy to leave Buffy and her friends alone without any trouble from him. There's a good chance he might've even become like one of the Scoobies. (Which kind of makes me wonder what that would have been like...) The only reason he ( not Glory) was a problem to Buffy in the first place was that he was desperate, not just to save his life, but his own existence. Which I think is somewhat forgiveable, and so did Buffy, obviously. He wasn't happy with the harm he was causing, demonstrated by his confliction.

I had forgotten about Giles willing to consider the fact that Dawn is expendable. And Buffy refused to even hear it for argument's sake. Understandable, of course, since Dawn was not The Key to Buffy, but her little sister. That's what I love about Buffy. She's nowhere near perfect, and she has her serious bouts of depression and sometimes a hard time finding motivation outside of extreme circumstances, but she never loses her inner core. She's not malleable. Yet she's plenty complex and capable of growing.

I think on the occassions you mentioned regarding Spike, Dawn, and Ben, Giles was out of line each time. But I can't deny the importance of Giles in Buffy's life. He fills that void that her father left her to fill. And there's no one who could understand her better in that capacity. He just doesn't function like she does. Like you said, he's much too jaded at times.

I admit I was a little surprised when Giles pulled that on Spike. I'm not sure why, except that maybe I thought for Buffy's sake, he'd restrain himself from doing something that would no doubt upset her. But I probably should've known better judging from his previous behavior. I keep forgetting that he's the guy who used to run with Ethan back in the day. *g* Deceptive, tweedy bastard. Giles thought that Spike was causing Buffy's priorities to be fucked up -- of course, Giles had no clue about the extent of Buffy's issues with Spike. He knew about the sex, but not about the attempted rape. Which, from Buffy's point of view, makes his actions all the more galling.

For Buffy, this was not about letting fluffy-bunny feelings overcome her better instincts, it was about letting her better instincts overcome dead-bunny feelings. Buffy knows from experience that she should trust her instincts. It's saved her life countless times. So, if her instincts say that Spike is important in this world-saving gig, it's probably true. And it was. Well said.

Context? Kinda bitchy. She's just found Faith in Angel's arms (when she went to L.A. to try and save Angel from being hurt by Faith) and he was protecting Faith from her.

I remember that episode now. Which reminds me of another huge moral difference between Angel and Buffy. When Buffy and Faith were under attack in that same episode, from the guys shooting at them from the helicopter, Buffy still protected Faith, despite how pissed she was. Buffy protects Faith because she believes it's the right thing to do. Angel protects Faith because she reminds him of himself. Because he knows what it's like to want redemption. No matter how bitter Buffy gets, she'll never belong in Angel's world. And Angel never really fit in with the Scoobies, either. For one thing, he hasn't really mastered the "just hanging out" thing, which is important to Buffy and her friends. And they all were on their way to figuring out how to have lives, unlike Angel and co., whose whole lives were the Mission. Buffy was the first Slayer not willing to give up on a future that is more than just fighting bad guys.

My favorite heroes are the same, too. That's my definition of a "pure"-hearted hero. Not perfect or without flaws, but someone who doesn't betray the greater good when push comes to shove. Someone who you know, without hesitating, is a true hero. That's why I was so angry by Angel's betrayal of Lindsey. I didn't find that heroic or necessary at all. I liked Lindsey, dammit. And even though the show's over, I wanted to leave it with that image of him still hangin' around to get on Angel's nerves.

Re: Hi

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I fully believe that Ben honestly wanted a chance at a normal life, and had Giles let him live he would have been perfectly happy to leave Buffy and her friends alone without any trouble from him. There's a good chance he might've even become like one of the Scoobies. (Which kind of makes me wonder what that would have been like...) The only reason he ( not Glory) was a problem to Buffy in the first place was that he was desperate, not just to save his life, but his own existence. Which I think is somewhat forgiveable, and so did Buffy, obviously. He wasn't happy with the harm he was causing, demonstrated by his confliction.

Also, their personalities were bleeding together -- the reason that Glory was being nice to Dawn was because of Ben, so it isn't a stretch to say that if he'd been entirely himself, he might have made a different choice.

I had forgotten about Giles willing to consider the fact that Dawn is expendable. And Buffy refused to even hear it for argument's sake. Understandable, of course, since Dawn was not The Key to Buffy, but her little sister. That's what I love about Buffy. She's nowhere near perfect, and she has her serious bouts of depression and sometimes a hard time finding motivation outside of extreme circumstances, but she never loses her inner core. She's not malleable. Yet she's plenty complex and capable of growing.

Totally. I wasn't the biggest fan of Riley when he was on the show, but I totally agree with what he told Buffy in As You Were -- she's a hell of a woman. And going through a horrible time in her life didn't change who she was, deep down. It just made her stronger, made her learn her limits

Re: part two, as it cut me off

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

It just made her stronger, made her learn her limits and what she was and wasn't capable of. Even in her deepest depression, the idea that she'd killed an innocent was utterly and completely unacceptable behavior that she was willing to take responsibility for (Dead Things).

I think on the occassions you mentioned regarding Spike, Dawn, and Ben, Giles was out of line each time. But I can't deny the importance of Giles in Buffy's life. He fills that void that her father left her to fill. And there's no one who could understand her better in that capacity. He just doesn't function like she does. Like you said, he's much too jaded at times.

Giles is often wrong. He's not perfect and he doesn't have Buffy's instincts (which is why I thought that it was right that we find out that he got out of his death trap in S7 because he'd heard the guy behind him -- he's not a Slayer and he doesn't have those instincts). I love Giles, but I'd trust Buffy's priorities over his.

I admit I was a little surprised when Giles pulled that on Spike. I'm not sure why, except that maybe I thought for Buffy's sake, he'd restrain himself from doing something that would no doubt upset her. But I probably should've known better judging from his previous behavior. I keep forgetting that he's the guy who used to run with Ethan back in the day. *g* Deceptive, tweedy bastard. Giles thought that Spike was causing Buffy's priorities to be fucked up -- of course, Giles had no clue about the extent of Buffy's issues with Spike. He knew about the sex, but not about the attempted rape. Which, from Buffy's point of view, makes his actions all the more galling.

Giles is quite the ruthless bastard when he thinks that he has to be. Actually, every Watcher we've spent time with has been like that (being like that is part of what destroyed Wesley).

Which reminds me of another huge moral difference between Angel and Buffy. When Buffy and Faith were under attack in that same episode, from the guys shooting at them from the helicopter, Buffy still protected Faith, despite how pissed she was. Buffy protects Faith because she believes it's the right thing to do. Angel protects Faith because she reminds him of himself. Because he knows what it's like to want redemption.

Yes, that's the thing that always pisses me off the most about Angel. He saves people who speak to his soul. Buffy still saves the people who piss off her soul.

No matter how bitter Buffy gets, she'll never belong in Angel's world. And Angel never really fit in with the Scoobies, either. For one thing, he hasn't really mastered the "just hanging out" thing, which is important to Buffy and her friends. And they all were on their way to figuring out how to have lives, unlike Angel and co., whose whole lives were the Mission. Buffy was the first Slayer not willing to give up on a future that is more than just fighting bad guys.

Which is why I adore her so much. She believes that a life without happiness, without hope, is not worth fighting for, so she fights for a world with hope.

My favorite heroes are the same, too. That's my definition of a "pure"-hearted hero. Not perfect or without flaws, but someone who doesn't betray the greater good when push comes to shove. Someone who you know, without hesitating, is a true hero. That's why I was so angry by Angel's betrayal of Lindsey. I didn't find that heroic or necessary at all. I liked Lindsey, dammit. And even though the show's over, I wanted to leave it with that image of him still hangin' around to get on Angel's nerves.

The problem, of course, is that Angel couldn't. Lindsey was far too much like Liam, wanting to be somebody. To be part of things. Lindsey's the embodiment of the part of himself that Angel hates the most -- the weak man who lets the demon win.

It's a shame, because Lindsey was always so much more than Angel gave him credit for. Angel never saw Lindsey, never saw behind the bravado.

Re: Hi

[blackholedebris.livejournal.com]

Also, their personalities were bleeding together -- the reason that Glory was being nice to Dawn was because of Ben, so it isn't a stretch to say that if he'd been entirely himself, he might have made a different choice.

That's a good point.

I was definitely not a fan of Riley. He irritated beyond belief, not to mention my bias against farm boys. But I'll admit that she did get support from him at times when she needed it.

And going through a horrible time in her life didn't change who she was, deep down. It just made her stronger, made her learn her limits

Yeah. She understood herself better, but she didn't throw everything she believed in out the window.

Re: part two, as it cut me off

[blackholedebris.livejournal.com]

Even in her deepest depression, the idea that she'd killed an innocent was utterly and completely unacceptable behavior that she was willing to take responsibility for (Dead Things).

When Buffy's depressed she mopes about and wishes she were anywhere else. But she doesn't harm anyone. When Angel starts to wonder 'what's the point?' everyone around him panics. Whereas Buffy's friends try to cheer her up, Angel's friends have to worry about consequences of Angel's moods.


I love Giles, but I'd trust Buffy's priorities over his.

Definitely. Giles' priorities scared me sometimes.

Yes, that's the thing that always pisses me off the most about Angel. He saves people who speak to his soul. Buffy still saves the people who piss off her soul.

There are times when I'm very much not Angel's biggest fan. For this reason and others. Buffy saved Spike. And he pissed her off royally. But look what came of it. She had her hand in creating another Champion. I'd trust Buffy with the Keys to the World much more than I'd trust Angel. Because she doesn't just worry about survival, she worries about everyone's happiness. About still being able to smile. Like when she insisted that everyone was going to have a nice Prom even if she couldn't.

Which is why I adore her so much. She believes that a life without happiness, without hope, is not worth fighting for, so she fights for a world with hope.

She's an optimist in a world that really, really needs one of those.

There's a lot of episodes of Angel that I've missed, especially from the latest season. Which one was Liam?

Lindsey was always so much more than Angel gave him credit for. Angel never saw Lindsey, never saw behind the bravado.

I always thought so. At the end, I felt Lindsey would've played fair, just like he mistakenly (unfortunately) thought Angel would.

Re: part two, as it cut me off

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

When Buffy's depressed she mopes about and wishes she were anywhere else. But she doesn't harm anyone. When Angel starts to wonder 'what's the point?' everyone around him panics. Whereas Buffy's friends try to cheer her up, Angel's friends have to worry about consequences of Angel's moods.

Right, the only time that Buffy's ever hurt any one of her friends was under the influence of a demonic toxin. Angel's hurt his friends on the influence of himself (ex. Forgiveness).

There are times when I'm very much not Angel's biggest fan. For this reason and others. Buffy saved Spike. And he pissed her off royally. But look what came of it. She had her hand in creating another Champion. I'd trust Buffy with the Keys to the World much more than I'd trust Angel. Because she doesn't just worry about survival, she worries about everyone's happiness. About still being able to smile. Like when she insisted that everyone was going to have a nice Prom even if she couldn't.

Because Buffy loves her friends. She likes people. Buffy knows the value of a smile and Angel forgets sometimes. And Buffy knows that it's never too late to save someone, all that they need to do is want to be saved.

Lindsey did want. He liked the sound of 'team'. Trusted that Angel wouldn't betray him -- and traitors don't trust. Lindsey would have played Angel fair. But Angel, being capable of that kind of deceit, assumed that Lindsey was as well.

And Liam is just Angel's old human name.