butterfly: (Compassion -- Daniel)
butterfly ([personal profile] butterfly) wrote2007-03-17 10:50 am
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Stargate: One Part of Daniel's Journey (spoilers through 10x20 -- Unending)

One of the things that I mentioned in my previous post is that Daniel is my One True Character for Stargate. There is no moment in canon where I disconnect from him, no moment where I don't feel like I understand him. For me, Stargate is entirely and completely Daniel's story. He is the catalyst for all of the action. He solves the Stargate, he unburies the gate of Abydos, he finds Atlantis, and he's the one who opened the door to let the Orii know that we existed.

Back when Origin aired, I wrote, "I'm half an inch away from shipping Daniel/Vala." I'm not sure when that half-inch became full-fledged shipping, but I've definitely seen the possibilities since the beginning of ninth season.

Part of the reason that it appeals to me is because of how Daniel reacts to her. He's so... explosive with Vala. In a way that he just isn't with anyone else. The only person we've seen him come close to reacting in the same way to is Jack. Another reason is because I'm so fond of bookends -- due South starts and ends with Fraser in Canada, and following the case of the murderer of one of his parents. Bookends and full circles make me happy and so Vala, as a former host, feels to me to hold some hope of closure about Sha're. And that's something that Jack, much as I love him, couldn't have done.

For me, the most painful and horrific season of the show is season four and season five is close. Because that's when Daniel seems to be most disconnected from the team and from life. That's the road that led to Meridian and ascension. For me, Jack and Sam openly flirting feels, in some ways, like a partial cause of why Daniel didn't have a safe place to go in S4. And... he got that part of it back in S5, got back that team-ness, but then he just kept losing to the universe and Daniel was so exhausted in S5. So damn tired. And, as we found out in Meridian, bearing the burden of feeling responsible for the capture, torture, and eventual death of his wife. God, no wonder he couldn't get over her. He'd have to begin to forgive himself first.

That's where ascension did help him. He made an active choice that he could help and went all out for it, even when it kicked him out of the 'enlightened' club. And that choice, even though he didn't know it at first, it made such a difference for him in season seven. He tells Teal'c in Orpheus that he finally feels like he belongs somewhere, for the first time. God, hearing him say that made my heart clench all tight. I really identify with Daniel a... scary amount, you do not even want to know, and him saying that made me so thrilled that he'd finally found his place and so terribly afraid that I would never find mine. And... if he'd been there, Jack might have been insulted, hearing Daniel say that now, after all that they've been through, much as Dean (Supernatural) would have been hurt to hear Sam say in In My Time of Dying that "we were just starting to be brothers again", but for Daniel... I understand his feelings. I live Daniel's feelings. What he appears to have is just what he wants to have, but he can't believe that it could possibly be real and he isn't quite willing to ask for proof. Also, wow, I felt very nearly the same way about Daniel having only seen seasons 1, 4, 5, and apparently a bit of 7, though that may have been entirely spoiled info, as I spoiled myself like crazy for Stargate when I first got into it (I just had to know). 

I remember season eight also feeling like such a turning point, because Daniel was actually flirting with people. He was actually making tentative steps to get over his grief for Sha're. And then season nine, where Daniel admits to being afraid. You're only afraid if you have something to lose. Daniel has people that he could lose to the Orii, Daniel has something that is confusing him and tearing him up inside and he doesn't want this pain again.

He barely survived losing Sha're. And that was a relationship that he stumbled into. With Vala, god, she's a flirt. She teases and she plays games and how the hell is Daniel supposed to know that she's serious about him? When she's married to someone that she clearly has feelings for and when she jokes around about sex all the time. When she's been playing this as a shallow thing from the start. I adore Vala and I completely understand why she acts the way she does around Daniel. Like Daniel, Vala is having an almost unprecedented emotion reaction and is trying to protect herself from it. And her way of dealing is being flip and pretending that it isn't a big deal. Because with Daniel and because of Daniel, Vala is vulnerable. He makes her care about how other people (and primarily Daniel) see her. If anyone else had said half the things that Daniel said in Unending, Vala would have said something. But this is Daniel and what Daniel thinks matters to her. Daniel's pain matters to her and she could see his hurt, even through her own heart breaking.

And that scene in Unending. I've watched it at least half a dozen times now. That is Daniel purging himself of his grief for his wife. His fears that her death had left a part of him broken. And it's Daniel laying out exactly why he's pushing Vala away and what mistaken beliefs that he's been holding about how she views him. It's something that's been building up in Daniel since Vala popped into his life and started driving him crazy.

Because Daniel had fallen so hard for Sha're by the time we met up with him in Children of the Gods. Losing her devastated him. Chasing after her for two and a half years (more than twice as long as they'd been together) and then losing her the way he did is a sure-fire recipe for being fucked up for a long time. And he was. He was fucked up for a long time. Hell, he's still fucked up, in a lot of ways. And, as I said once when talking about why people might not like him, he can definitely be an overbearing, arrogant asshole.

So, yes. Here is Daniel's rant, and the parts that made me wibble the most for him (as opposed to the parts that made me want to give Vala the biggest hug in the universe):

At the beginning, when she's trying to undo his pants, he pushes her away and asks her not to, but he's gentle about it. And then she starts talking.

Vala: "We've been here three months. Three months... you do like girls?... well, I don't see many other options around here, do you? Unless you really don't find me attractive." Everything in Vala's setup, everything, is all about sex. She's presenting it that way because she's afraid to make herself vulnerable, but, man, if she'd wanted to actively make Daniel feel like they'd just be using each other to scratch an itch, she couldn't have done better. And here, at this moment in time, when Daniel had just been sharing something that mattered to him emotionally (all they wanted was to live longer, life is too short), was so very much the wrong moment to bring sex into the equation. Because Daniel has been wanting Vala for so long and caring for her more than he wants to and her doing this to him, now, her bringing sex into this moment in time is what shatters his walls into tiny pieces and lets his pain all come tumbling out. Because sex is the least of what he wants to have with Vala. She sets it up so that it's all or nothing -- if you like girls, who else will it be? -- but all about sex and whether or not he finds her attractive. She hasn't said anything that implies they'd caring for each other, just that they'd have sex and it's about time.

Daniel: "Do you want an honest answer to that question?... no, seriously, you started this. Do you want an honest answer to the question?... Do you believe that I could have any kind of serious feelings for you?"

Vala: "I wasn't suggesting that you have serious feelings, Daniel."

Daniel: "Oh, Oh. So, what... we sleep together once, then what? We work together. You know, even saying that part out loud sounds unbelievable. I mean... come on, I mean I can't even imagine what... what a relationship with you would be like."

The interesting part to me is how briefly Daniel himself stays on the 'short-term' thing. He's the one who brings up 'serious' feelings, he's the one who brings up the possibility of a relationship. A quick roll in the sheets is the furthest thing from what he wants with Vala, so much so that even though that suggestion is what is fueling the anger that tears down his walls, he still doesn't stay there. Instead, his mind goes to the possibility of something long-term and the fear of how much that could hurt. 

Daniel: "I mean, yes, you've proven yourself to trustworthy... on a professional level and for that I am very proud of you, but on - on a personal level... Vala, come on, give me a break. At best you're a... an emotionally unstable wreck. And I'm not saying I'm much better. I'm not saying I'm much better. There was a time when I thought that I would - I would never... get over my wife. I mean, the idea of... of being hurt that way again. But I have finally gotten to the place - I have finally, for the first time in a long time, have gotten to the place where I actually feel like I could be close to somebody again. But not in a million years -- a million, million years -- would I ever consider that person being you. I mean, we are so completely opposite and wrong for each other. It's not even funny. And the worst part... the worst part about that is you know that. And that this whole flirty, sexual thing that you do, that's just your way of having a laugh at my expense. So, I'm so sorry if I'm not more appreciative of that and I'm so sorry that you're bored, but don't you pretend it's anything else."

For me, what stands out in this is how often Daniel pauses, how often he stumbles over his words, and the way he repeats himself. Vala has been completely tearing him up. For how long, I'm not quite sure, I'll have to rewatch to decide where I think he started wanting to be that close to her (and fighting it), but I'm sure it's been there since at least Memento Mori and the not-quite-a-date.

Regardless, these are words that Daniel has been holding back from saying for months. And here, they just spill out, all over each other and so baldly emotional and painful that it breaks my heart for both of them. And when his anger has been spent, Daniel is just... exhausted.

Daniel: "Don't act like you're hurt." And here, the anger is gone, leaving just the confusion and frustration that Daniel's been dealing with for months. And he looks over at her, still silent and putting her shirt back on. And... that's not really like Vala, not the one in Daniel's head, the one who just wanted some quick and easy sex, who didn't care more about Daniel than the other men that he's seen her flirt with. So, he goes over to her, and he looks at her, and he gets that confused and thoughtful furrow in his brow as he reaches out to her. And part of him starts thinking maybe. He kisses her and she kisses him back and whatever he finds in there is enough to fill his eyes with hope. "You better not be messing with me," he whispers before he kisses her again, wanting so much for Vala to want the same things that he does and hoping so badly that everything he said before was wrong (and not quite believing it yet -- it'll take time for him to believe it). But it's a beginning.

And while they forget everything, at the end, this time it's Vala who says, "Life's too short," not Daniel. And here, there is a different beginning. And there's hope.

The thing for me, the thing that makes me so damn happy, is that Daniel Jackson's story makes sense. Daniel's character evolves so much from season one to season ten, but it all feels like Daniel to me. His ethics and his ruthlessness and his idealism all provide a strong throughline for the character, despite all the ways that he's changed. As far as a journey for Daniel goes, I consider the ten season run of SG-1 a complete success. The show took him through grief and despair and need and hope. Friendship and loneliness and finally finding a place where he belongs.

I wish... I do wish that Jack had been slightly less closed in. I love Jack/Daniel fic, because I love Jack and having him be the person to heal Daniel's heart from the pain of losing Sha're always felt like the best of both worlds, considering how amazing and beautiful their friendship was. And Daniel needed Jack so much in the early seasons and I always... but I always felt that Jack had more 'in love' type of feelings for Daniel than the reverse. I don't see Daniel, on-screen, as all that attracted to Jack. But then... Daniel loves knowledge more than any person the show or fandom has paired him up with. In the past, his curiosity has always been greater than his attachment to the people around him. Perhaps it always will be. And maybe that's why I think Vala would suit him so well. Because she doesn't have any more attachment to a particular place than Daniel himself does. She could go with him in a way that Jack simply couldn't.

I don't... I certainly don't want to downplay the importance of the Jack/Daniel relationship. It is central to the early seasons and instrumental in how Daniel's character became who he is in our current seasons. And without Jack, I don't think Daniel would have ever gotten to a place where he could care about Vala the way he does (much as I think RayV's friendship with Fraser paved the way for RayK and Fraser's much more volatile and passionate relationship). Jack was Daniel's balancing stone and anchoring point for so much of the show. Even now (as in The Shroud), Daniel just expects Jack to understand, expects that connection to pull them through the tough places.

But there are places that Jack couldn't go. I started to realize that mid-season eight, when I started working on Be Like Water, which is my own canon for the Jack/Daniel relationship (for me, the "oh, fuck, Jack can't do this" moment comes in Endgame when he can't fire on the ship with Daniel in it and he hates himself for it -- it's an intensely slashy episode that left me unsurprised when Jack went to Washington in S9. He can't trust his choices around Daniel anymore.). So close, but never close enough. If everything is just the way it should be, why am I still hungry?

If Jack had pushed Daniel, the way that Vala did, would he have been the one to give Daniel a happy ending? Possibly, but possibly not, for all the reasons that Jack would never go there in the first place. Post-descension, Daniel was finally healing enough to give another person that place in his heart marked 'life-mate', the one that he always thought would belong to Sha're. Vala is the person who was willing to push past Daniel's walls, was the person who sparked against Daniel and made him feel passion (I speak here of extreme emotion, not specifically of love). Daniel could very well have fallen for someone else, but Vala was the one who got under his skin, who gave him no choice but to consider her as an option.

There's so much more I want to say about Daniel, about all of them, now that the series is complete (though we don't know how much the movies may change things, the movies will almost certainly play on a slightly different emotional level, as movies always do). The journey that Teal'c took -- from rebel to leader to just being who he chooses to be. Sam finally feeling completely at home in her own skin. Jack (oh, Jack) and the way he held things together until he couldn't anymore, because they took away his team and he never managed to fully adjust away from the mindset of being SG-1's leader. Cameron's hero worship, for SG-1 and the gate itself, and his self-awareness of his own need and his peace with that. Vala's search for the home she never knew she wanted, for people who would trust her and that she could trust. And Daniel, still knowledge first, but finally finding what he has always wanted -- a home, yes, but one where he can still learn and grow and travel. Finding hope again and learning how strongly friendship can bind and yet never chafe.

I love them all, so much.

[identity profile] destina.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 06:06 pm (UTC)(link)
This is fascinating meta, but...I just don't see it the way you do, unfortunately. For me, Daniel's journey, and his arc, ended in season seven. Full stop. The Daniel I've been watching since then is like a different guy, and it makes me sad.

And that scene in Unending. I've watched it at least half a dozen times now. That is Daniel purging himself of his grief for his wife. His fears that her death had left a part of him broken.

It's too little, too late for this character, and it's also severely out of character for Daniel at this point, and it's also hard for me to believe that Vala could be the catalyst for this, for a huge number of reasons. I wish I had more time to comment, because I'd love to discuss this with you. But I really did enjoy your essay.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 10:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, if you ever want to talk about it some more, I'm sure that I'd still be interested.

And even if you don't agree with the essay, it's cool that you enjoyed it. I'm honestly more than a little stunned at how het Stargate has been for me the last two years, what with rooting for both Daniel/Vala and Carter/McKay. I got into the show based on Daniel and on the Daniel/Jack connection.

But when Vala showed up, she pinged me hard. I enjoyed her character and her interaction with Daniel from the get-go.
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[personal profile] jic 2007-03-17 06:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Why are you awake again long enough to post already?

As usual, I love the way you dissect characters and relationships and make me see new things.

As we discovered last night, my initial response to that scene was so discordant with the way I see Daniel's character that I am having a really hard time with it. I'm hashing it out in my spare thoughts here at work, but I really want the chance to re-watch it a half dozen times and write out the differences in my response.

Has your perception of the scene changed at all - even in degree if not in type - as you re-watch?
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 10:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Has your perception of the scene changed at all - even in degree if not in type - as you re-watch?

Hmm. My feelings as regards to Daniel's motivations and Daniel in that moment haven't changed much, but I think that my thoughts regarding it have been refined (which is thanks to you -- it was our conversation last night that made me write this all out and figure it straight in my head).

What I would love to do is rewatch all of Daniel's hurt and, well, bitchy moments in the past to compare (because I think that this moment here is the angriest we see Daniel get about personal stuff when he's in his right mind) and also to rewatch S9 to double-check my feelings on the Daniel/Vala arc in general.

[identity profile] enviousleigh.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 07:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeaaah...I'm secretly a total SG1 fangirl.

Intriguing post.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 10:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you!

And SG-1 is totally worth the fangirling.

[identity profile] teand.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 07:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Jack and Daniel were my OTP for so very long that it hurt to realize in The Shroud that whatever they'd had -- or whatever I'd seen them as having -- was gone. They reacted to each other the way exes do -- from a shared history.

And that allowed me to let Jack go and see Daniel and Vala pretty much exactly the way you do. Although you explained it much better than I ever could have...

(here through [livejournal.com profile] destina's link in case you were curious)
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 10:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Jack and Daniel were my OTP for so very long that it hurt to realize in The Shroud that whatever they'd had -- or whatever I'd seen them as having -- was gone. They reacted to each other the way exes do -- from a shared history.

Indeed. They still very obviously cared about each other, but the spark of potential that used to exist between them was gone.

And that allowed me to let Jack go and see Daniel and Vala pretty much exactly the way you do. Although you explained it much better than I ever could have...

Thanks. And, yeah, if Jack hadn't left... I probably wouldn't have started shipping Daniel/Vala (could they have had anything close to the same relationship with Jack still there?). But he did leave. His choice (RDA's choice). And I want Daniel to be happy.
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[identity profile] alicambs.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Great post. I am so with you in the sense that Stargate for me has always been about Daniel. That's not to deny the importance of the other characters, but like you I saw everything through Daniel's eyes and from his perspective and I understood him and loved him dearly.

To me Daniel has shown the greatest growth of any character. He has developed and matured while still retaining that passion, desire for knowledge, single mindedness and wonder that makes him as one of the most well developed and delightful characters I have had the pleasure of watching. I wondered how SG-1, and Daniel, would change without Jack (although to be quite honest I thought RDA should have retired Jack earlier since his lack of enthusiasm for the character and job was dragging the shown down for me) and I knew I’d miss the Jack of the earlier season and the Jack/Daniel dynamics, but the introduction of the 'new guy' and Vala just seemed to galvanise the writers and actors to better things!

As to Daniel and Vala, I've always been a Jack/Daniel girl because I felt that Jack could ground Daniel, but since Vala arrived I've been secretly routing for the pair of them to connect some how. The scene in Unending was wonderful and I concur with your reading of entirely. I can see no other reading for it, Daniel is not a cruel man, capable of being insensitive maybe, but cruel never and his frustration at Vala's constant sexual innuendo just burst forth.

I loved Unending, it wasn't perfect, but it was a beautifully realised ending for the show as it stands, while the films may offer us an ending that encompasses all that has gone before.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 05:01 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you!

I am so with you in the sense that Stargate for me has always been about Daniel. That's not to deny the importance of the other characters, but like you I saw everything through Daniel's eyes and from his perspective and I understood him and loved him dearly.

Daniel really is the character that I understand best. Because of that, it's much easier for me to see his journey and his point of view.

To me Daniel has shown the greatest growth of any character. He has developed and matured while still retaining that passion, desire for knowledge, single mindedness and wonder that makes him as one of the most well developed and delightful characters I have had the pleasure of watching.

I fully agree. Daniel has grown and changed so much over the years, but he's still the guy who wanted to stay in The Torment of Tantalus and soak up the ancient knowledge.

I wondered how SG-1, and Daniel, would change without Jack (although to be quite honest I thought RDA should have retired Jack earlier since his lack of enthusiasm for the character and job was dragging the shown down for me) and I knew I’d miss the Jack of the earlier season and the Jack/Daniel dynamics, but the introduction of the 'new guy' and Vala just seemed to galvanise the writers and actors to better things!

Indeed! Cameron and Vala gave the writers new things to work with (and, as they mention in the S9 featurette 'An Intro to Ben Browder', they could use Ben so much more than they could use RDA in the previous season, no scheduling problems). It really gave the show new life and gave the regular actors something new to play with.

As to Daniel and Vala, I've always been a Jack/Daniel girl because I felt that Jack could ground Daniel, but since Vala arrived I've been secretly routing for the pair of them to connect some how.

I was actually worried about whether or not I'd like the show in S9, without Jack. And then Cam and Vala arrived and I just adored the characters so much.

The scene in Unending was wonderful and I concur with your reading of entirely. I can see no other reading for it, Daniel is not a cruel man, capable of being insensitive maybe, but cruel never and his frustration at Vala's constant sexual innuendo just burst forth.

Exactly. It's fun to compare that scene in Unending with the pink underwear scene in The Ties that Bind (where Vala shows up in Daniel's bed) because the reactions are so much more extreme. It really feels like the Unending scene is a bookmark to the other (Daniel, especially, seems to feel that Vala is doing the same thing to him here as she was then).

I loved Unending, it wasn't perfect, but it was a beautifully realised ending for the show as it stands, while the films may offer us an ending that encompasses all that has gone before.

It really was a great episode for showing us Cameron and Vala's journeys from the beginning of S9 to here. And I've got hopes for the films.

[identity profile] rebellious-love.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 08:18 pm (UTC)(link)
I hope you don't mind me commenting. I found this through [livejournal.com profile] carpenyx's friend's page.

I love your essay and your insghts. I also found the scene in Unending intriguing and felt that Vala had touched on something. But, I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Thanks for pointing it out. Great analysis.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 05:02 am (UTC)(link)
I hope you don't mind me commenting. I found this through carpenyx's friend's page.

No worries! Thanks for letting me know how you got here.

I love your essay and your insghts. I also found the scene in Unending intriguing and felt that Vala had touched on something. But, I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Thanks for pointing it out. Great analysis.

Thank you so much. I'm glad that you enjoyed the essay and that it was helpful. Yay!

[identity profile] whisper99.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 09:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh,WONDERFUL analysis of the scene and Daniel's overall arc. I too see Daniel's evolution from season 1 through 10 and it's been wonderful to see. I like how there are assumptions that I made about Daniel's character, especially during seasons 9 & 10 that turned out to be true based on what they've shown us in Canon. The slow buildup for whatever Vala was going to mean to Daniel culminated in Unending in a way that completely explained his behavior and actions throughout the seasons.

And like you say, Vala was somebody that was *necessary* for Daniel, when Jack went to DC. Sam and Teal'c will never push his buttons and Cam might either make him angry or frustrated, but never, EVER give Daniel what he needs. Vala said it best back in season 9 that he needed to get his head out from the dust of old books - something that in the past, only Jack seemed to be able to manage to do for him.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 05:09 am (UTC)(link)
Oh,WONDERFUL analysis of the scene and Daniel's overall arc. I too see Daniel's evolution from season 1 through 10 and it's been wonderful to see. I like how there are assumptions that I made about Daniel's character, especially during seasons 9 & 10 that turned out to be true based on what they've shown us in Canon. The slow buildup for whatever Vala was going to mean to Daniel culminated in Unending in a way that completely explained his behavior and actions throughout the seasons.

Thank you! And, yes, I was thrilled but unsurprised by the strength of Daniel's feelings in Unending because I felt like it's been explained so well by what came before. It was a really believable romantic arc. Before Daniel/Vala happened, I was starting to think that SG was incapable of doing romance.

And like you say, Vala was somebody that was *necessary* for Daniel, when Jack went to DC... ...Vala said it best back in season 9 that he needed to get his head out from the dust of old books - something that in the past, only Jack seemed to be able to manage to do for him.

Yes, exactly. Vala was pushy, impatient, and pushed Daniel's buttons. Just like Jack, only she managed to elicit an even stronger reaction from Daniel than Jack did.

Sam and Teal'c will never push his buttons and Cam might either make him angry or frustrated, but never, EVER give Daniel what he needs.

*nods*

Sam and Teal'c are both such supportive and comforting relationships for Daniel, not at all confrontational the way that the Jack/Daniel friendship was for him sometimes. And Daniel needs that from someone.

And while I adored Cameron's relationship with Daniel, he couldn't have given Daniel what he needed for the same reason that Jack eventually had to leave, I think. It's the military mindset part of Jack that prevented him from being able to connect with Daniel in the end.
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[identity profile] elz.livejournal.com 2007-03-17 10:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with you 100%. I think from Jack's point of view, the way things play out is a tragedy: he loses another family and winds up on the outside, he can't keep Daniel, he can't have Sam, and he's doomed to endless bureaucracy. So I can see why people who were heavily invested in his character find that a somewhat appalling conclusion. But as a viewer, I can't unknow the fact that this was because of the actor's unavailability, so I cut the show some slack there, and mostly, I try not to think about it.

And I've really enjoyed the last two seasons. I love Daniel and Vala's relationship for all the reasons you mentioned, and I think she brought something essential to the show in her Jack-like tendency to evoke strong reactions from the people around her. I've grown to love Mitchell and Landry, I will always love Teal'c, and, selfishly enough, I've enjoyed seeing Sam step out of Jack's shadow. I think that for the story they've been telling, "Unending" was a very fitting conclusion.

Bookends and full circles make me happy and so Vala, as a former host, feels to me to hold some hope of closure about Sha're.

*nods* And I love that after all of Daniel's issues with damsels in distress, what Vala needs from him isn't physical rescue (which she's more than capable of providing for herself) but belief and trust. Which is harder for him to give now than it once was (where he's conversely gotten much better at shooting people), but not so much that he can't do it.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 05:22 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with you 100%. I think from Jack's point of view, the way things play out is a tragedy: he loses another family and winds up on the outside, he can't keep Daniel, he can't have Sam, and he's doomed to endless bureaucracy. So I can see why people who were heavily invested in his character find that a somewhat appalling conclusion.

So true! And Jack really seemed so unhappy being general of the SGC -- he never seemed to stop thinking of SG-1 as 'his' team and he couldn't let go. But because he was military, he was given no choice. He could always retire again, but that wouldn't get him what he wants either. Jack's storyline does end up as a tragedy.

But as a viewer, I can't unknow the fact that this was because of the actor's unavailability, so I cut the show some slack there, and mostly, I try not to think about it.

Indeed. It isn't the show's fault that RDA wanted to cut back on hours and then leave. Jack had to exit somehow. There aren't all that many choices for a character like his.

And I've really enjoyed the last two seasons. I love Daniel and Vala's relationship for all the reasons you mentioned, and I think she brought something essential to the show in her Jack-like tendency to evoke strong reactions from the people around her.

She really did. Vala makes an impression. I've really loved how she's fit into the SGC family -- shopping with Sam, playing basketball with the team, connecting and joking and just being so incredibly alive and vibrant.

I've grown to love Mitchell and Landry, I will always love Teal'c, and, selfishly enough, I've enjoyed seeing Sam step out of Jack's shadow.

Until you said that, 'seeing Sam step out of Jack's shadow', I hadn't realized how much I've enjoyed seeing her grow over the past two years. It's been wonderful seeing her not automatically defer to someone else on the team, the way she did to Jack. Jack respected the hell out of her abilities, but she never had the final decision when he was there. The new equality on the team is something that makes me very happy.

And I love that after all of Daniel's issues with damsels in distress, what Vala needs from him isn't physical rescue (which she's more than capable of providing for herself) but belief and trust. Which is harder for him to give now than it once was (where he's conversely gotten much better at shooting people), but not so much that he can't do it.

Yes. Exactly.
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[identity profile] monanotlisa.livejournal.com 2007-03-18 02:25 am (UTC)(link)
I am so thrilled you enjoyed the Daniel/Vala resolution-that-wasn't; her character is MY SG-1 centerpiece, after all, and through her, I've come to apreciate the new team, Cam and Sam and Daniel and Vala and Teal'c.

Beautiful essay. Unlike you, I only started watching late and don't know Daniel, but I see where you're coming from, and I *know* where you're going, emotionally, arc-wise. This was such a lovely ep with regard to both their characters.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 02:21 pm (UTC)(link)
I am so thrilled you enjoyed the Daniel/Vala resolution-that-wasn't; her character is MY SG-1 centerpiece, after all, and through her, I've come to apreciate the new team, Cam and Sam and Daniel and Vala and Teal'c.

Vala really helped give SG-1 a new shot of life. She has so much vitality and energy. And the five-part team, with Vala and Cameron, works better for me than just the four-part one with Cam.

Beautiful essay. Unlike you, I only started watching late and don't know Daniel, but I see where you're coming from, and I *know* where you're going, emotionally, arc-wise. This was such a lovely ep with regard to both their characters.

Thank you! And, yeah, it really was. Daniel and Vala have had a powerful emotional journey together.
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[personal profile] paian 2007-03-18 02:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you for writing this and sharing it. I saw 'Unending' differently, but you see it in such a beautiful light of coming full circle and coming home, it's a pleasure to see it through your eyes.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 02:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you. I know that you feel very differently about the entire episode, so that's really sweet to hear.

[identity profile] flyingtapes.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 12:48 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes. This is everything I have thought and felt about Daniel/Vala, Daniel/Jack, and the last three seasons with Michael Shakes explicated so very very well. Excellent essay. Daniel is one of the most important characters in all of my various and disparate fandoms for me, and you've explained why, and also why, exactly, "Unending" worked really well for me.

You've said in far greater detail what I was thinking during the emotional scene between Daniel and Vala, because there was *so much* going on there, so much Daniel stuff that I can probably pick this apart for fic and thoughts for years. In my personal canon, this makes so much sense, because there was Shaur'i, and then there was Jack, but things with Jack ended (as they would have had to in the context of the show, as well as in their own relationship as they developed different desires, but it's worth noting that [in my canon!] they were together for years before they did break up, and even then it wasn't a clean break-up, because you can see vestiges of it in the episode where Daniel is recovered from the Ori), and Daniel was getting his bearings, about what he did want and what he was willing to do for that and being comfortable with wanting something that wasn't Shaur'i and wasn't Jack (because he's a LTR kind of guy) but was *Vala*, which was so far out of left field for him, so not what he would think about or expect to want, that he doesn't know what to do with it.

And while he's working all this stuff out, Vala's coming to her own conclusions, about living on Earth, about being a member of a team and not just on her own, about living an honest life, etc etc, and how Daniel figures into this.

And I fully believe that they were just friends up until that moment in Unending, because of the way it was played. But I seriously doubt that Teal'c didn't intervene *just a little* to get them back together.

I have this whole fic-essay thing about the loves of Dr Jackson that deals with his differing and complex feelings for the three (nearly continuous) people he's loved in the last ten or twelve years. It's hard, to get to any kind of root of what Daniel thinks and feels. He's a gordian knot, in a rubix cube, in Shroedinger's box. But I love him.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 04:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes. This is everything I have thought and felt about Daniel/Vala, Daniel/Jack, and the last three seasons with Michael Shakes explicated so very very well. Excellent essay. Daniel is one of the most important characters in all of my various and disparate fandoms for me, and you've explained why, and also why, exactly, "Unending" worked really well for me.

Thanks! Daniel really is right up there with my favorite characters (though that's such a long list for me! But he's in the same category as Benton Fraser and Buffy Summers, so he's right near the top.). I've really been loving the evolution of his character and which parts changed and what stayed the same (knowledge is still his first love, and that changing would probably be the deal-breaker for me, Daniel-characterization-wise).

Daniel was getting his bearings, about what he did want and what he was willing to do for that and being comfortable with wanting something that wasn't Shaur'i and wasn't Jack (because he's a LTR kind of guy) but was *Vala*, which was so far out of left field for him, so not what he would think about or expect to want, that he doesn't know what to do with it.

*nods*

One of the things that I loved so much about his rant is how well it works with feelings for Jack. Because Sha're was not 'opposite' and 'wrong' and sleeping with her didn't mess up a workplace, so where on earth did Daniel develop those fears? Unless something happened (or pointedly didn't happen) with Jack.

And while he's working all this stuff out, Vala's coming to her own conclusions, about living on Earth, about being a member of a team and not just on her own, about living an honest life, etc etc, and how Daniel figures into this.

Indeed. Going back and rewatching, Vala was clearly intensely attracted to Daniel in the beginning. And she's gotten tired of running, of being alone. They did a really good job with her character.

And I fully believe that they were just friends up until that moment in Unending, because of the way it was played. But I seriously doubt that Teal'c didn't intervene *just a little* to get them back together.

I think that Teal'c was definitely talking about their relationship a bit when he said, "Good things come to those who wait." He's a guy who saw them spend fifty years together, saw how Vala made Daniel happy. I can easily believe that he'd subtly be pushing them together, afterwards (especially as it might ease his heart about his part in Daniel losing Sha're).

I have this whole fic-essay thing about the loves of Dr Jackson that deals with his differing and complex feelings for the three (nearly continuous) people he's loved in the last ten or twelve years. It's hard, to get to any kind of root of what Daniel thinks and feels. He's a gordian knot, in a rubix cube, in Shroedinger's box. But I love him.

Daniel is such a complicated guy. I love when we get these emotional infodumps on him (like we got regarding his feelings of guilt about Sha're in Meridian). They always fit so well.

Have you written tat fic-essay or is it still in the works? I'd love to read it, if it's available.

[identity profile] flyingtapes.livejournal.com 2007-04-02 01:42 pm (UTC)(link)
One of the things that I loved so much about his rant is how well it works with feelings for Jack. Because Sha're was not 'opposite' and 'wrong' and sleeping with her didn't mess up a workplace, so where on earth did Daniel develop those fears? Unless something happened (or pointedly didn't happen) with Jack.

Oh, absolutely. It works for me on a couple of levels--first as an acknowledgement of the Daniel/Jack relationship, which I am firmly in the 'it happened' camp for; and also of it ending, which I believe it did. It's hard to look at their relationship from about season seven onwards and not see them breaking up. Between Daniel's ascension and the way that ripped through Jack, to the conculsions Jack drew on Daniel's return and during his absence, you see the pieces of his mind working and thinking about himself and his feelings for Daniel and realising, as painful as it is, that he feels too much for Daniel, and things couldn't go on the way they were. They would either have to leave the program to keep themselves out of harm's way (so Jack wouldn't go crazy)--but that's unrealistic for them both. So if they are staying in the program, Jack has to make of himself a person who wouldn't tear the world apart to get Daniel back. And the only way he can do that is by leaving, for as painful as it is, something would fall apart if they stayed together. Better if it was them and not the planet.

The fic-essay things is still very much in the works. But I'd like your input, if you want to give it. Shoot me an email at sathinks at gmail.com. :)
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[personal profile] nic 2007-03-19 12:54 am (UTC)(link)
This is a beautiful post and may colour my impressions when I finally see these episodes in order. It's certainly something to think about. :)
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 04:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you! I'm curious about how you'll feel about the episode. The reaction seems to be torn between complete love or complete disappointment on my flist.

[identity profile] 6beforelunch.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 01:47 am (UTC)(link)
Found this via a link on my friends of friends list...

Really great essay. Daniel is my...don't know if I'd call him my One True Character because I can enjoy the show without him (loved season 6), but he's my gateway character and he's the character that defines the show for me in a lot of ways.

I'm absolutely fascinated by his story arc. It's really amazing the amount of character development that he's gotten over the years. One of the things that has pushed me out of other shows (Voyager and X-Files to name a few) is that the characters just don't change. On SG1 the characters change, not always in ways that the fans like, but the point is that they change. Sam has a wonderful character arc, Teal'c does too. Jack less so, I think, or maybe I just never paid enough attention to Jack to notice it (I do like him, honest, I just don't usually want to pick him apart the way I do with the others).

But Daniel is the one that gets the most development over the years and he goes through such an interesting transformation. I have a fic!kink for stories that examine the way Daniel has changed, especially the way season 8/9/10 Daniel is a pretty scary guy when you get right down to it. Daniel has always been a dangerous guy, if you know what you're looking at, but in the later seasons, it's obvious to even a casual observer that he's not really someone you want to mess with. I have a bit of personal canon that says that Janet's death pushed him a little too far. The idea that someone could be there to help, trying to save a life, and get shot for her trouble was the last straw for him. He still cares, he's still compassionate to a point, but that last spark of idealism died with Janet.

Erm. I'm getting off-topic. Daniel's relationships are something else that fascinate me. I'm not a slasher, so I don't see Jack and Daniel in a romantic context, but I am still interested in their relationship. I never could completely get a handle on it, though. I guess I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how Jack went from pulling Daniel into a hug at the end of Need to calling him "a pain in the ass" while he was dying in Meridian.

I'm planning on doing a complete re-watch of the entire series in order at some point. Maybe then I'll be able to figure out Jack and Daniel.

But, yeah. I loved Unending and I love reading what people are saying about it. Especially people who liked it. ;)

They really are amazing characters. I'm glad we got ten years with them.
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[personal profile] sheron 2007-03-19 03:31 am (UTC)(link)
But Daniel is the one that gets the most development over the years and he goes through such an interesting transformation. I have a fic!kink for stories that examine the way Daniel has changed, especially the way season 8/9/10 Daniel is a pretty scary guy when you get right down to it. Daniel has always been a dangerous guy, if you know what you're looking at, but in the later seasons, it's obvious to even a casual observer that he's not really someone you want to mess with. I have a bit of personal canon that says that Janet's death pushed him a little too far. The idea that someone could be there to help, trying to save a life, and get shot for her trouble was the last straw for him. He still cares, he's still compassionate to a point, but that last spark of idealism died with Janet.


Wow, I just so completely like this whole paragraph I had to say it.

[identity profile] 6beforelunch.livejournal.com 2007-03-21 02:41 am (UTC)(link)
*g* Thanks.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you!

Daniel is my...don't know if I'd call him my One True Character because I can enjoy the show without him (loved season 6), but he's my gateway character and he's the character that defines the show for me in a lot of ways.

Hee! I quite enjoyed many of the S6 episodes, but even there, my main focus is the (mostly) untold story of Daniel's ascension. We only get three episodes, but Daniel still gets a full character arc, from accepting to questioning to rejecting the terms set by Oma and the Others.

I'm absolutely fascinated by his story arc.

Indeed! I've loved that about the show so much. Life is change and so when characters change, they feel so much more like real people to me. The characters on SG-1 evolve and grow in response to their situations.

Sam has a wonderful character arc

She really does! I hadn't noticed it as much before this season, but she's really come into her own. And her growth this year has pointed out to me her growth in earlier seasons.

Jack less so, I think.

And the difference with Jack is that, while Daniel and Sam and Teal'c all have uniformly positive growth arcs, Jack's arc is actually more of a tragedy.

But Daniel is the one that gets the most development over the years and he goes through such an interesting transformation.

*nods*

I think that that's part of why Vala works so well with him now. I don't think that she and pre-ascension Daniel would have clicked anywhere near as well. Daniel is a much more obviously dangerous guy. He's no longer a man capable of stumbling into marriage the way he did eleven years ago, when he was relatively unscarred. Vala, with her wounds and assertiveness, fits the man he is now.

I have a bit of personal canon that says that Janet's death pushed him a little too far.

Hmm. That could also work as a breaking point, characterization-wise. It definitely affected him in a major way. I'm rewatching S7 with my mom right now, so when we get to Heroes and after, I'll see what I notice about the difference in Daniel.

Daniel's relationships are something else that fascinate me. I'm not a slasher, so I don't see Jack and Daniel in a romantic context, but I am still interested in their relationship. I never could completely get a handle on it, though. I guess I'm still trying to wrap my brain around how Jack went from pulling Daniel into a hug at the end of Need to calling him "a pain in the ass" while he was dying in Meridian.

For me, those actions are centered in the militarization of Daniel. In S4, Daniel fights against the military point of view and consistently wins, while in S5, he fights and tends to keep losing. All the while, he's both acting more military and fighting that attitude. And it's something that I place him doing in response to the SGC being more willing to trust Sam than trust him.

Pre-S3 haircut (well, end of S2), Daniel comes across as much more of a civilian to Jack, I think, and thus more approachable. As Daniel becomes more of what he thinks Jack and the SGC wants, he becomes less touchable.

I'm planning on doing a complete re-watch of the entire series in order at some point. Maybe then I'll be able to figure out Jack and Daniel.

When I'm done watching the series with my mom (and I love that my mom had become fannish about this show -- she and I haven't really watched television together since Star Trek (Next Gen) when I was a kid), I'm thinking of starting over again (especially since my roommate has also expressed a desire to rewatch). I hope to commit more meta as that happens.

But, yeah. I loved Unending and I love reading what people are saying about it. Especially people who liked it. ;)

Such a fantastic episode! It made me so happy.

They really are amazing characters. I'm glad we got ten years with them.

Indeed.

[identity profile] 6beforelunch.livejournal.com 2007-03-24 12:17 am (UTC)(link)
We only get three episodes, but Daniel still gets a full character arc, from accepting to questioning to rejecting the terms set by Oma and the Others.

That's very true. In Abyss (which I really need to watch again) and Changeling he's not happy about the rules, but he doesn't openly defy them. By Full Circle he seems fed up which leads to him taking a huge risk. You can really see that frustration come out again in Pegasus Project. I have so much love for Daniel going off on Morgan and the Others in the holoroom of Atlantis.

I hadn't noticed it as much before this season, but she's really come into her own.

She has! I've never been a huge Sam fan, but in seasons 9 and 10 she just shines. I love seeing this snarky, silly side to her personality. She seems to have so much confidence in her own abilities now. There are shades of this part of her in episodes like Space Race, but it really came out in force these last two seasons.

And the difference with Jack is that, while Daniel and Sam and Teal'c all have uniformly positive growth arcs, Jack's arc is actually more of a tragedy.

Really? Huh. I never thought of it that way. If you don't mind my asking, what makes you see it as a tragedy? Like I said, I've rarely picked Jack's character apart the way I have Daniel's or Sam's, but I am curious about how other people see him.

As Daniel becomes more of what he thinks Jack and the SGC wants, he becomes less touchable.

True. I can kind of understand why Jack pulls away from Daniel. I some ways, I think Daniel pulls away from Jack. In the beginning he's floundering, completely out of his depth. As time goes on, he gets his feet under him and needs Jack less so Jack pulls away in return, treats him more like a soldier and less like...well, I see Jack as treating Daniel almost like a younger brother in the early seasons, but YMMV. Still, that scene in Meridian jars me every time. Shame too, because otherwise I love that ep so much.

I hope to commit more meta as that happens.

Hope you don't mind, but I've friended you. I really like your meta. :)
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-24 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
That's very true. In Abyss (which I really need to watch again) and Changeling he's not happy about the rules, but he doesn't openly defy them. By Full Circle he seems fed up which leads to him taking a huge risk. You can really see that frustration come out again in Pegasus Project. I have so much love for Daniel going off on Morgan and the Others in the holoroom of Atlantis.

Oh, yes! I love his frustration and anger there so much. Because he knows just how much power that the Others have and he knows that the Ori are completely bending the rules, so it's just pissing him off that the Others aren't willing to do the same to save the galaxy. All those people, dying, because the Others have rules. Daniel isn't one to let the rules stop him from helping save lives.

She has! I've never been a huge Sam fan, but in seasons 9 and 10 she just shines. I love seeing this snarky, silly side to her personality. She seems to have so much confidence in her own abilities now. There are shades of this part of her in episodes like Space Race, but it really came out in force these last two seasons.

And knowing how she grows will give me so much more patience with her in the earlier seasons. It just took her time (and not being Jack's 2IC) to become as sparkling and snarky and fun as she was capable of being. I can look at her actions (and Jack/Sam) as something she needs to go through in order to become the truly spectacular woman she's turned out to be.

Really? Huh. I never thought of it that way. If you don't mind my asking, what makes you see it as a tragedy? Like I said, I've rarely picked Jack's character apart the way I have Daniel's or Sam's, but I am curious about how other people see him.

He loses all the things that we know for sure that he wants and gains the things that we know he doesn't want. For me, the fact that he keeps calling SG-1 'his' team throughout S8 is what pointed this out to me. He wants to be part of SG-1, wrangling Daniel and Sam, and sharing his culture with Teal'c. Instead, the nature of the military forces him to move upward (or leave entirely). He's not allowed to stay where he wants to stay. And S8, where he's the head of SGC, feels like a classic case of 'too close, but not close enough'. He can see the danger that his team is in, but he's trapped on base, unable to be out in the field where he wants to be.

And if you ship either Jack/Sam or Jack/Daniel, he also ends up without the person who could have made those other things up to him. I think that Jack is okay with his life, but I don't think he's happy. And that does make me sad and if I were primarily a Jack fan, that would probably color the whole tone of the last three seasons for me (which is to say -- I understand why the Jack fans that I know don't embrace those seasons).

I can kind of understand why Jack pulls away from Daniel. I some ways, I think Daniel pulls away from Jack. In the beginning he's floundering, completely out of his depth. As time goes on, he gets his feet under him and needs Jack less so Jack pulls away in return, treats him more like a soldier and less like...well, I see Jack as treating Daniel almost like a younger brother in the early seasons, but YMMV. Still, that scene in Meridian jars me every time. Shame too, because otherwise I love that ep so much.

I think that Jack and Daniel definitely have a deep affection for each other, however you read it. Some people posit that he's replacing his son, some people see a sibling vibe, and some people slash. Regardless, there are strong feelings, which change over the course of the season. And Jack eventually comes to a place where he can't show Daniel the simple affection that he did in Seasons One and Two, whether that's because of Daniel pulling away, Jack doing so, or a combination of the two of them (for entirely different reasons).

Hope you don't mind, but I've friended you. I really like your meta. :)

Totally cool. Also, dude! Your user info says that you like Janeway/Paris. That was totally my pairing of choice back when I was watching Voyager (and I also share your soft spot for Riker/Troi -- I totally imprinted on that Imzadi book).

[identity profile] 6beforelunch.livejournal.com 2007-03-24 06:46 pm (UTC)(link)
He loses all the things that we know for sure that he wants and gains the things that we know he doesn't want.

*nods* I can see the tragedy in Jack's promotion and then in his reassignment to Washington. I wish we'd gotten more backstory on why Jack ended up in Washington. General opinion seems to be that Jack was too emotionally invested in these people (mainly SG1) to send them into battle without him. Refusing to blow up the ship in Endgame is most often cited, but you can see it in other episodes too. What I wonder, though, is if Jack made the decision himself or if someone above him looked at his command decisions and offered him the promotion as a way to avoid a messy situation down the line.

I've seen a lot of J/S and J/D fic suggest that Jack is still carrying on a long distance relationship his One True Love (whoever you deem that to be *g*) while he's in Washington. I guess you could call Sam's "not really" to Barret's "So you're single?" in Ex Deux Machina a bit of canon support for that, though they deliberately left it open for any interpretation.

But, yeah, if I were primarily a Jack fan, I think I'd be less than happy with the last few seasons. Kind of like if Daniel had stayed ascended after we knew that the Other's rules tore him up.

Your user info says that you like Janeway/Paris. That was totally my pairing of choice back when I was watching Voyager (and I also share your soft spot for Riker/Troi -- I totally imprinted on that Imzadi book).

Janeway/Paris was awesome early on. I really wish the show had gone in that direction, but the ships I like rarely end up being canon, so I wasn't surprised that nothing ever happened. (Yet another reason I love Daniel/Vala, a ship I like actually went canon. And the way it did din't make me want to claw my eyes out the way some other ships have in the past. Yay!) I like older, more-powerful woman/younger man romances. It's such a rare dynamic, but it's always interesting for me to see. I wish there was more fic out there, but the entire fandom seems focused on J/C, J/7, and P/T. Ships besides those don't get much love.

I think I'm the only Riker/Troi fan who hasn't read Imzadi. I'm not avoiding it or anything, I've just never gotten to it. My love for the pairing comes mainly from the show and the movies and the new Titan novels.

[identity profile] wolfenm.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 04:31 am (UTC)(link)
Again with the head-nodding. Daniel is my "reason to watch" too, and that only increased exponentially once Vala was brought on board. Micheal said Claudia helped revitalise him in terms of acting, and it definitely showed in Daniel! I just wish we could have had Daniel talk to Jack about his feelings for Vala at some point in the series....
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 04:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Daniel is my "reason to watch" too, and that only increased exponentially once Vala was brought on board. Micheal said Claudia helped revitalise him in terms of acting, and it definitely showed in Daniel!

The actors really do just have tons of chemistry with each other. It's a joy to see them in the same scene.

I just wish we could have had Daniel talk to Jack about his feelings for Vala at some point in the series....

I'm really hoping that maybe that can happen in one of the movies. It probably won't, as character moments can fall by the wayside in movies, but I've got my fingers crossed.

[identity profile] ninja007.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 09:11 am (UTC)(link)
I so agree with you about Daniel.

I have also been watching the show because of Daniel and his growth over the years. I feel his trials and tribulations, his loves and hate, and his wanting to feel that he belongs.

This and the previous post was very well written and articulately put.

Thanks!
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you!

I have also been watching the show because of Daniel and his growth over the years. I feel his trials and tribulations, his loves and hate, and his wanting to feel that he belongs.

Daniel really is the key figure in the entire Stargate story, the character who moves the story forward and whose pain and growth is made most clear by those event.

[identity profile] ninja007.livejournal.com 2007-03-24 05:02 am (UTC)(link)
Very much so!

Also very eloquently put!

[identity profile] szeretni.livejournal.com 2007-03-19 04:33 pm (UTC)(link)
I can see all this, what you see. I feel so torn with Stargate, I used to love the show completely and then they ruined it for me, with Sam and Jack's romance being the center of everything (which to me was just so unrealistic) and Daniel being pushed aside, both by the writers and by Jack, as I see it.
I was happy when Daniel came back but...I guess I've always felt that the team feeling wasn't there anymore. I enjoyed the Orii storyline more than anything and especially Vala. Vala is almost the only reason I watched again, because CB is such a good actress.
Sometimes, the only scenes worth watching was the scenes with Vala/Daniel.
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[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-03-23 05:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, the Sam/Jack thing never worked for me. Emotionally or story-wise. Plus, the 'sir' thing always creeped me out. I like Sam much better on her own, in the last two seasons.

I've really loved all the of Daniel/Vala stuff.

heart of it

[identity profile] randomfreshink.livejournal.com 2007-06-27 04:03 am (UTC)(link)
So agree with this--Daniel has always seemed Daniel to me. He's grown and he's matured, and he's come into his own on so many things, but to me this line is so much the heart of it....

"...And that this whole flirty, sexual thing that you do, that's just your way of having a laugh at my expense. So, I'm so sorry if I'm not more appreciative of that and I'm so sorry that you're bored, but don't you pretend it's anything else."</>

It's that laugh at Daniel's expense--that's what always seems to cut him deepest. He'll fight and aruge and admit he's wrong...and he'll do foolish things, but to be made a laughing stock--that's the lecture that got him booted from his career, that's the kid who doesn't have parents and doesn't fit anywhere, that's the child who is too smart to fit into any classroom and who doesn't fit with his peers.

So much of Daniel's journey seems to be non only where he belongs, but finding someone who can also fit and belong with him. That's a spot both Jack and Vala can fit in different ways for different reasons.

(And I love the Shroud, because there's this little moment with Jack and Daniel on the bridge, and Jack is muttering about Daniel looking like a mime and Daniel just looks over and gives this tiny, tiny smile--and it's so induldgent and fond.)

But Unending--wow. It just did so much I thought.
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Re: heart of it

[identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com 2007-07-02 05:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Indeed -- Daniel really can't stand being laughed at, can't stand being the one person who doesn't fit it. He'll take it, because he believes in doing and saying what's right, too, but he hates it. And, with SG-1, he really does find that place where he belongs, with people who belong with him. And that's lovely.