butterfly | Doctor Who: Did we need Martha?

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dw: series 3

Doctor Who: Did we need Martha?

Because Russell T Davies seemed to feel that the show needed to have a character who would fall in (unrequited) love with the Doctor, thus illustrating the difference between Rose and everyone else. Did it?

In some superficial ways, Martha is quite a lot like Rose -- pretty, clever Londoner girls, both of them. They even get some echo dialogue in the early episodes. The show puts them in comparable situations frequently. There are both parallels to draw and contrasts to mark.

Mostly, though, there's the Doctor.

I wasn't surprised about Martha's emotional arc. And, though it was heavy-handed at times ("He had to fall in love with a human... and it wasn't me."), I actually do agree with RTD that it was necessary. In order to establish someone as One Thing, you need to establish someone else as Other Thing. And, in this particular context, he wanted to make a distinction between one character and the entire history and future of characters to come.

Yes -- Martha was, in part, all about how special Rose was. Which sucks if you hate Rose. If you hate Rose Tyler, then a series of television that is basically saying, "Yeah, that blonde chick? One of a kind," is pretty much guaranteed to piss you off (and, of course, to the person desperately missing Rose, having episode after episode point out how irreplaceable she was is hardly going to help in the process of getting over her).

But... as the show makes very, very clear -- Rose isn't special in the ultimate 'best person ever' way. She's special in the 'best person for this one specific character/relationship' way. The Doctor writes out that she's 'perfect Rose' and, to him, she is. Now, was Rose actually portrayed as a 'perfect' character?

*bursts out laughing*

She could be petty and jealous. She wandered off. She had a tendency to throw herself into dangerous situations for personal reasons. She nearly destroyed the world because she couldn't listen to instructions. Rose Tyler was flawed.

In a lot of ways, Martha is a 'better' person. Higher class (which matters to some people). More education. Better at staying put and following instructions. Tends to do the right thing. Not so apt to get into trouble. Again, not a perfect person (she, too, had the flaw of 'jealousy'), but from an objective standpoint, probably a better bet to make. But, as they say, the heart has reasons that reason cannot know.

Now, Martha is not the first time that New Who made the distinction between Rose and Other Companions. In fact, every time that the Doctor took on someone else, it was made clear that the Doctor and Rose were a unit and other folk were nice but not necessary (something that Jack took much more easily than Mickey). Rose is the person who invites Adam and Jack on board and is also clearly the impetus for the Doctor inviting Sarah Jane on board.

There are two pre-S3 examples of the difference between Rose and Everyone Else. The first is in The Parting of the Ways, when the Doctor sends Rose home, keeps her out of danger, while everyone else is involved in the fighting (made very clear when he calls her over to help him with the wiring and takes her out of the 'active fighter' count). The second is in School Reunion and the conversation in the street that ends with the Doctor telling Rose that she won't be left behind and very nearly telling her that he loves her ("Imagine watching that happen to someone you-").

And SR, of course, has Sarah Jane -- who serves as our stand-in for Old School Companions. The Doctor very clearly has both admiration and affection for Sarah Jane (just as he does for Martha), but he's utterly thrown by the notion that he was her 'life' and that she couldn't move on without him (we see this echoed when Martha says that the Doctor is 'everything' to her, while she's basically a side-note to him -- a fun, smart, lovable side-note, but a side-note nonetheless). And both Sarah Jane and Martha have to choose to say good-bye to the Doctor in order to start getting over him.

Back when S3 was first airing, I pondered the notion that RTD was using Martha to 'ramp down' from the idea of the Doctor as a sexual/romantic person. Grace was the ramp up, a person that the Doctor was interested in who liked him not his life; Rose was the bridge (the apex; the climax; the transformation), someone he adored who adored both him and the life he offered; and Martha was someone who liked the life he offered, thought he was attractive, but didn't seem to know or like him very much as a person. Going right from Grace and Rose to a Doctor/companion relationship that was completely lacking in romance/sexuality would either be a bit of a harsh break or possibly lead to confusion. So, in order to make his divisions clear, RTD put in an intermediary position where the Doctor was clearly still a sexual/romantic figure ('lost prince') but had no interest in pursuing sex or romance (and I find it so fascinating that both of the 'unsuitable' choices were doctors -- it may show that the Doctor needs someone who complements him, not someone who echoes him).

RTD appears to believe that Martha was a necessary character to show the difference between Rose and the rest of the Doctor's companions. In balance, though I think her part could have been more strongly written, I agree.

ETA: In the end, I think the real problem with Martha is that they only had a six-episode story to tell with her (Smith & Jones through Gridlock and Utopia through Last of the Time Lords). She would have worked better if she hadn't stayed the whole season.

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If you think the rabid Martha fans have been quiet, you obviously haven't spent much time on any of the remotely Martha-oriented communities, or suffered from a bunch of them decamping to your journal and heaping personal abuse upon you for being a fan of Rose. I've witnessed these things personally.

Picking particularly poor examples of crap!fic on Teaspoon as the justification for painting the entire community of Who fans who happen to like Rose as nuts is patently unfair, and I'm not interested in playing that game with you.

You and I have clearly been watching a different show for the past 27 years or so if you think the way Rose has been portrayed is identical to how previous Doctor/Companion relationships have been. If you'd prefer to think that David Tennant playing the Doctor as being in love with Rose is overacting, then that's your prerogative.

What this essentially boils down to, for me, is that if you don't like the person playing the Doctor, you don't like the writers of the show, and hate the companion that's had the most significant role in New Who so far, then why are you watching it? More importantly, why do people feel the need to watch it, dislike it, and then versus complaining to the people making the show where it might actually have some impact, they'd rather hound people who have the temerity to like the show largely as written?

This isn't to say I don't have criticisms for the way certain issues have been handled in the show (obviously, since I think Martha got used about as badly as a chew toy between two pit bulls, and since I think they did a solid disservice to Sarah Jane in SR's retcon), or that I don't think critical discussions of the show are warranted, but when every discussion about any problem in any of the episodes eventually boils down to people who don't like Rose jumping in and yelling 'ROSE SUX AND IT'S ALL HER FAULT!', it just gets old.

Those 'particularly poor examples' take up 90% of the fics on Teaspoon these days. And, you know, I happen to like Rose and ship Rose/Nine myself. So the only painting going on is when people are sure that "stop writing stupid reunion fics already!" equals "ROSE SUX".

What this essentially boils down to, for me, is that if you don't like the person playing the Doctor, you don't like the writers of the show, and hate the companion that's had the most significant role in New Who so far, then why are you watching it? More importantly, why do people feel the need to watch it, dislike it, and then versus complaining to the people making the show where it might actually have some impact, they'd rather hound people who have the temerity to like the show largely as written?

Frankly, I could ask you the same question. If you believe the Doctor has lost the love of his life and could never again bond with a companion and is now the loneliest angstiest emo Time Lord in the cosmos and the show will never again be as good as it was with That One Companion, why do you continue to watch it? I'm enjoying the show because I don't believe that Rose is the end-all and am looking forward to future companions, and I'm debating the issue because it's not the Rose-ship I'm so hopelessly annoyed with, it's the attitude that it's the only ship that matters. Note debating, rather than hounding. Following a link from

who_daily =/= appearing in your journal and dissing your mom or whatnot. If you don't feel like going into the debate, you're welcome to stay in your own corner of fandom where I promise not to bother you.

Frankly, I could ask you the same question. If you believe the Doctor has lost the love of his life and could never again bond with a companion and is now the loneliest angstiest emo Time Lord in the cosmos and the show will never again be as good as it was with That One Companion, why do you continue to watch it?

*blinks*

I don't recall anyone posting here on the D/R side of things saying that the Doctor 'could never bond again with a companion' or that 'the show will never again be as good as it was with' Rose, so setting those up as your points make the entire discussion a bit futile, as you're asking a question that has clauses that don't apply to me (or to

principa_coh. The only part of your question that does apply to me is -- 'if I believe that the Doctor has lost of the love of his life, why bother watching the show?' To which my answer is -- I like the guy. I kept watching the Bourne movies for Jason, despite Marie dying. I keep watching Doctor Who because I'm fond of that wacky alien with the broken hearts.

If you don't feel like going into the debate, you're welcome to stay in your own corner of fandom where I promise not to bother you.

Actually, as my friends have had happen to them -- when they stand in their own corner of fandom so as not to bother anyone, they get called 'anti-community'. Of course, when the people on the other side flock their stuff, they say that they're just 'trying not to be wanky' but it doesn't stop them from saying things like the above when the D/R side flocks.

principa_coh why she thinks I shouldn't.

'Anti-community' is a brand new term to me. I don't go spam Doctor/Rose comms either and I think doing that is just a little bit pathetic. But when I see something linked on

who_daily I naturally assume it's open to the public to comment on.

Well, I did say that your view of this ship is not the one I'm used to. I saw an argument - that I shouldn't watch the show because X - and answered as to why it's a feeble argument. It's hardly as simple as "don't like ship X, don't watch" from either side, y'know? I'm not asking you why you watch the show, I understand and respect that. I'm asking principia_coh why she thinks I shouldn't.

I think she was asking because, in your discussion here, you actually do appear to be pretty miserable with the show as it stands. This may be an unfair view of your position, as you are actively talking about plot points that you dislike, but it is the vibe that comes across. But I'm not

principia_coh, so I can't say for certain.

'Anti-community' is a brand new term to me. I don't go spam Doctor/Rose comms either and I think doing that is just a little bit pathetic. But when I see something linked on who_daily I naturally assume it's open to the public to comment on.

As, indeed, it is. I don't flock the majority of my opinion posts, but I do know several D/R shippers who do, because they have had people come into their journals to lecture them on the right way to watch the show, so they did do as you suggest and retreated into a locked community... and immediately were blasted for that choice, as well. Can't win for losing.

I have no objection to civil disagreements with the points I'm making -- I'm rather less thrilled about people assuming things that I have not said and claiming that I am making points that I have not made and would not make. If you want to write an open letter to D/R shippers, that's one thing. However, when you come into my journal, you are not speaking to all of the Doctor/Rose section of fandom (most of whom I do not even know) -- you are talking to one specific person who happens to ship Doctor/Rose. Assuming that because I ship D/R, I must naturally believe all the things that the most vocal faction believes is a logical fallacy (one of composition, if I remember correctly).

Those 'particularly poor examples' take up 90% of the fics on Teaspoon these days.

90% of all fic is crap, regardless of pairing or fandom -- it's a common saying, and for good reason. So, yeah, I agree that 90% of Rose fic is crap, but the ratio in most fandoms is hardly better (in some smaller fandoms, it's even worse, because you have a lower chance of good writers being attracted to your pairing).

And, you know, I happen to like Rose and ship Rose/Nine myself. So the only painting going on is when people are sure that "stop writing stupid reunion fics already!" equals "ROSE SUX".

Considering most of the people who say things like 'stop writing reunion fics' (which, you know, the people involved could just not read) also do say things about Rose's character (calling her not good enough for the Doctor because of her class -- and yes, someone did say that in a conversation with me -- and such), I'm not sure why it isn't a reasonable leap to make. They don't always say it in the same post, but when they have said things like that about Rose in the past, it's reasonable to assume that they still feel that way about her.

You're right; much in the same way that it's reasonable to assume that fans who think Rose is the Doctor's one true love also think he didn't give a flying anything about his other companions. It's a sad two-way street, but there it is.

And yes, 90% of everything is crap, but when you see how the crap tends to cluster around a specific pairing, it'll inevitably do something to your PoV. I don't recall the last time I read a crap Doctor/Romana fic (although poor Sarah Jane gets her fair share, and don't get me started about the Master.)

And yes, 90% of everything is crap, but when you see how the crap tends to cluster around a specific pairing, it'll inevitably do something to your PoV.

That's a fascinating way to twist my point. And it makes me feel like you didn't actually read the words that I wrote.

90% of everything is crap is not the same as saying "90% of DW fic is crap and it's mostly the D/R stuff'. It means 90% of D/R fic is probably crap, and so, mostly likely, is 90% of D/Romana fic or D/Martha fic or D/Master fic (this one, I can vouch for from experience).

Well, no, that's not what I'm saying, because I also said that I actively read Doctor/Romana fic and Doctor/Ace fic and Doctor/Jo fic and whatever and 90% of it isn't crap. I used to be pretty heavily involved with Lord of the Rings/Silmarillion fandom, and you had this situation where 90% of LotR fics sucked, but the Sil fics were 90% brilliant. So, obviously, most people didn't get a very good opinion of LotR writers. So that's pretty much what you see here. I'm not twisting your point, I'm making a different one.

Maybe someone (not me, because it sounds kind of boring) should go through Teaspoon and see what the numbers actually are.

Because, from my experience in 30+ fandoms, not once have I ever encountered a situation where only one pairing had the majority of the crappy fic. Now, maybe DW is this bizarre fandom where none of the normal rules apply, but I suspect not. Maybe every single Romana fan is wonderfully articulate and a fantastic writer, but since I've yet to meet any character who lacks their fans who can't spell, I also doubt that (also, I've actually met Romana fans who were quite the opposite).

And, as I mentioned, from my glances at the other DW pairings that I find intriguing (Doctor/Master; Doctor/Jack; Doctor/Jack/Rose), I found the percentages to be similar.

Jumping in here because I love studying fanfic dynamics.

I've noticed that "popular" pairings/stories meet the 90% crap criteria. That's because everyone's writing them, everyone's reading them.

For a niche fandom, or stories about Character X that only 10 people read about, you have a high percentage of good fic. That's because the authors are generally writing out of love of writing and because they truly believe. They know they won't get much (if any) feedback, they know they're writing for a small audience, so the desire to dash off something fast is quashed.

These same good writers exist for popular pairings/scenarios, unfortunately, they're drowned out by the masses (often teenagers) who are writing because they think it's cool, or they want feedback, or they think it's fun to type out 1000 words, spellcheck and post.

If there are people writing cr@ppy minor pairings/scenarios, then they have the problem of where to post/how to get their stories out there. Lack of specialist communities or archives means the stories will be hidden in personal journals or one story out of 100 on a 'general' community. Most people will skim right past. And if your stories are getting ignored on a community, are you going to continue posting there? Only the good writers would because they'd be confident in their own work. Novices generally sulk and give up.

If you believe the Doctor has lost the love of his life and could never again bond with a companion and is now the loneliest angstiest emo Time Lord in the cosmos and the show will never again be as good as it was with That One Companion, why do you continue to watch it?

I've never said he isn't going to bond again with a companion, or that he's never bonded with a companion before - unless you mean the royal 'you,' in which case I'd agree that there are some people that seem to have that mindset for whatever reason.

Following a link from who_daily...

And I didn't say someone following a voluntarily publicized link in a 'newsletter' is hounding anyone. I've simply cited examples of stuff I've seen happen to other folks in their personal journals.

I don't mind debate, but debate is not taking the most extreme hyperbolization of whatever the other person's said, or deliberately taking their statements out of context, and using that as a basis to start an argument.

If you don't feel like going into the debate, you're welcome to stay in your own corner of fandom where I promise not to bother you.

And by this you're well ahead of the people I was referring to, who spend a lot of time publicly attacking people who have chosen to go into 'their own corner of fandom' to avoid having abuse heaped upon them. They complain about having to hear about Rose, but then when the people who want to talk about Rose take their ball and go elsewhere to play, they then complain because the people who want to talk about Rose did feck off, versus sticking around for the bullying.

so, let's say i have a good idea for a reunion fic.
or maybe it's not a good idea, but i've never written reunion fic and now i want to.

should i refrain simply cause there are already billions posted?
if you don't like it, don't read it.
but what gives the right to a) call all reunion fics 'stupid' and b) tell me what to write.
it's my fic, i'll write what i want.

i'm not gonna go and tell people to stop writing 'the Doctor seeks martha out' fic cause there's already too many. it's the most silly reason to say it.

if we were talking about producing a tv show or a movie that's gonna cost hundreds of millions of dollars, then yeah, go ahead and say you think it's crap and it's gonna fail.

but this is fics. and every fangirl deserves the right to write as she pleases. even if it's RPF. with furries.

Generally, Martha-related communities would be about Martha. What else did you expect?

oh_she_knows and

time_and_chips are about Rose. Are

lifeonmartha and

smith_n_jones any more Martha-centric than Rose comms are Rose-centric?

Yes, but some Rose fans may have a slightly discolored view of certain Martha communities when the people calling them batshit and batchip, calling a Rose community an "anti-community" and wrong in public posts, calling a moderator of said community a "twat", and mocking Rose fans as group in other communities are moderators of those Martha communities at the time. That may be coloring their view just a little.

Cite, please? If it's something the moderators said in their journals, that's very nice - and completely irrelevant.

From

smith_n_jones: 5. No bashing of any and all characters, ships, actors or shippers/other groups of fans. If you feel a post or comment crosses the line, leave a comment for the mods via this post (comments are screened)

From

lifeonmartha: 2. Do not hate on Rose Tyler. Many of us are very sad to see her go, and hating on Rose in the name of Martha will be punished with... something bad. Yep, same goes for Donna, Jack, Mickey, Sarah... all of them. Be nice and ~~make~~ love! There's also a blanket ban on actor-bashing.

Cite, please? If it's something the moderators said in their journals, that's very nice - and completely irrelevant.

Yeaaaaaaaaah, no. Here you are, getting upset about a public post someone made in their personal journal that just happened to be linked by a larger compilation comm, and you say such posts are completely irrelevant? You're not going to trust a cop who slurs your group on their off hours to treat you fairly when he's on duty, are you? Neither are certain folks going to trust mods to hold up rules when they're having fun bashing everywhere else.

Now, I'm not saying that this is required- I just wanted to point out this is why quite a few Rose fans have their views of those comms. I'd also point out there are also some Rose bashing communities as well.

I'd point out that smith_n_jones only added that rule two months ago, when they were called on it. Both Time & Chips and OSK have the same rules against bashing other characters.

Most of the posts have been locked or deleted, but if you want the reason for my personal distrust of those communities is still open to the public. I'm sorry, but if you think this is irrelevant to how I should feel about these people enforcing bashing rules, I'm going to ignore anything that comes out of your mouth again.

Yeaaaaaaaaah, no. Here you are, getting upset about a public post someone made in their personal journal that just happened to be linked by a larger compilation comm, and you say such posts are completely irrelevant?

Do I personally like

butterfly's views on Martha? No. It's unlikely that I would join a community that she moderates, as we share few interests, but her journal is her space. Her views may affect the way she moderates, but it doesn't mean that her moderation would be the end of the world. Community space != journal space.

Personally, I have no qualms joining a community where I don't always agree with the moderator. Their opinions are their own, and if they are any good at moderating, they will try to be as objective as possible.

I'd point out that smith_n_jones only added that rule two months ago, when they were called on it.

Thank you for the information. I didn't know that. That kind of citation was what I was asking for, and I respect your point.

(However, I cannot find an anti-bashing rule on OSK. It's entirely possible that there's a rule post in the community, which I can't access.)

The mods who have commented -

doyle_sb4 was the only one Martha-centric mod I caught, but I didn't cross-reference - were trying to stop the Rose-bashing in their comm(s). I don't see evidence of persecution, besides the usual at Fandom Wank.

I am sorry you've had less than a positive experience with Martha comms and fans. If you think my views are completely mad, that is completely your choice, and I respect that.

No, I don't. Honestly. There are quite a few Martha fans that I have great discussions with, and I can understand that each side has it's own view points on episodes and the series in general.

You have a right to your opinions, and I to mine. I just wanted to give you my personal reasons, which is similar to a few other Rose fans.

Generally, Martha-related communities would be about Martha. What else did you expect?

You don't appear to be very good at reading things in context. The subject that

principia_coh and

fantasyjax were discussing was whether or not Martha fans are being disparaging toward Rose fans, which they both made very clear. If you can't figure out what's being discussed, it's a bad idea to attempt to enter said discussion.

There's a difference between being Martha-oriented and spending a large chunk of the time heaping abuse on another character, one presumes in an effort to make one's favorite seem cooler.

I know that random childish Martha-bashing isn't tolerated on the two D/R communities you've cited - but bashing Rose seems to be almost encouraged on the Martha comms.

As I responded above, I cited the rules of

smith_n_jones and

lifeonmartha. They do not allow bashing. I'm sure that there are small Martha-centric communities that do allow Rose-bashing, but the major ones do not, just as the major Rose-centric communities will not allow Martha-bashing.

If you believe there's such a difference, please cite.

Having such rules and actually enforcing them are two different things. To be honest, I haven't looked at either in months, because while I initially subscribed to them when I started watching Series 3 about halfway into the UK run, I quickly grew tired of constantly reading comment threads that degenerated into name-calling about Rose and/or fans of that character. It may be that the mods have eventually listened to complaints and started nipping such things in the bud, but it just wasn't worth it to me to keep having to sift through all the dross to find something worthwhile. And it's not just the Martha-specific comms. It comes up in general-purpose comms like

doctor_who as well.

I just don't understand why there has to be so much hating on Rose to make people feel better about their fave companion o'choice. I mean, no-one's under any obligation to like Rose, just as no-one's under any obligation to like any other companion, supporting character, or even Doctor, but I haven't seen the level of open hostility towards any other characters and their fans welcomed/tolerated like it is with Rose.

I haven't noticed overt Rose-bashing. I've noticed member preference for S3 over S2, and Rose over Martha, but that does not constitute bashing (and would probably be case for Rose in Rose-centric comms).

I don't see the persecution that you are complaining about. However, if you would like to cite a verifiable case that was ignored or encouraged by the mods, I defer to you.

Sorry, but I'm not going back and sifting through months-old entries to look for stuff which may or may not have been deleted in the meantime. It's not as though I've been archiving things off-line in an effort to build up some sort of legal case or whatever.

If you're having a more positive experience with the Martha communities than I was seeing, I'm glad things have improved. I can definitely understand why people might prefer Series 3 to Series 2 depending on personal tastes - even without bringing the different companions into it. For my part I think Series 3 had some really bad episodes (DiM/EotD), and was generally more uneven than either Series 1 or 2. I don't know if that was attributable to some of the head honchos' attentions being diverted to Torchwood or what, but I can't say I'm terribly encouraged by Helen Raynor being given another 2-parter for Series 4.

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Doctor Who: Did we need Martha?

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