I think the arguments about shame-based vs. guilt-based cultures are considered kind of out-of-date and ethnocentric (characterizing most Asian societies as shame-based, for instance, and Western Europe and the U.S. being seen as guilt-based), but we were still learning about those early theorists when I took a course on Shame and Guilt back in 1996, and I recall that the distinction was at least partly based on whether the group or the individual was the focus of society. If you don't fit in with or measure up to the needs of your group in a group-oriented society (where the family or the clan or the village or the nation is more important than any individual), you feel shame, the argument went. But in a society where the needs and talents of the individual are valued above the ability to fit in with the group, getting in serious trouble is defined in terms of guilt. Could it be argued, then, that Andrew -- who wants to be a follower, to fit in with and be accepted by some idealized group or individual -- is much more other-oriented (and therefore possibly shame-oriented) than Wesley, who breaks with the group and does his lone ranger thing to save Connor, living according to his own code and only RESENTING his friends' failure to respect that, rather than being shamed by their disapproval?
I don't know. What always struck me about the difference between shame and guilt (and the reason why you can DO something about guilt, while extreme shame is much more likely to lead to depression, rather than change or repentance) is that shame says "I am wrong, bad, or deficient," while guilt says "I DID something that was wrong, bad, or deficient." With guilt you still have hope, while shame, at its worst, says that no matter how good your actions may be NOW, you can never make YOURSELF right. Working with that definition, I suppose it could be argued that Angel is much more shame-inclined than Spike -- or at least that Angel SEES it that way (Angel broods and hides from humanity for a hundred years after getting his soul, out of an overwhelming sense of shame and hopeless guilt, while Spike, according to Angel, spends three weeks moaning in a basement and is then ready to change his ways and feel fine about it).
deficiency in oneself or in one's actions?
I think the arguments about shame-based vs. guilt-based cultures are considered kind of out-of-date and ethnocentric (characterizing most Asian societies as shame-based, for instance, and Western Europe and the U.S. being seen as guilt-based), but we were still learning about those early theorists when I took a course on Shame and Guilt back in 1996, and I recall that the distinction was at least partly based on whether the group or the individual was the focus of society. If you don't fit in with or measure up to the needs of your group in a group-oriented society (where the family or the clan or the village or the nation is more important than any individual), you feel shame, the argument went. But in a society where the needs and talents of the individual are valued above the ability to fit in with the group, getting in serious trouble is defined in terms of guilt. Could it be argued, then, that Andrew -- who wants to be a follower, to fit in with and be accepted by some idealized group or individual -- is much more other-oriented (and therefore possibly shame-oriented) than Wesley, who breaks with the group and does his lone ranger thing to save Connor, living according to his own code and only RESENTING his friends' failure to respect that, rather than being shamed by their disapproval?
I don't know. What always struck me about the difference between shame and guilt (and the reason why you can DO something about guilt, while extreme shame is much more likely to lead to depression, rather than change or repentance) is that shame says "I am wrong, bad, or deficient," while guilt says "I DID something that was wrong, bad, or deficient." With guilt you still have hope, while shame, at its worst, says that no matter how good your actions may be NOW, you can never make YOURSELF right. Working with that definition, I suppose it could be argued that Angel is much more shame-inclined than Spike -- or at least that Angel SEES it that way (Angel broods and hides from humanity for a hundred years after getting his soul, out of an overwhelming sense of shame and hopeless guilt, while Spike, according to Angel, spends three weeks moaning in a basement and is then ready to change his ways and feel fine about it).