Doctor Who and Romance: Everything dies

[butterfly]

So, I'm reading the TWoP recaps of Doctor Who, which I find interesting, partly because Jacob doesn't really recap like anyone else on the site. In a recent season two recap, he said something that struck me -- that they are, in some ways, telling the same story thirteen different ways.

Which is to say -- everything ends. Everything dies. They've said it explicitly several times already -- Sarah Jane in School Reunion says it to the Doctor when he's being tempted by the Headmaster, the Doctor says to the Queen (after she tells him that anyone who own the Koh-I-Noor is fated to die), that anything you own, if you own it long enough, could predict your death, because everything dies. Cassandra dies at the end of New Earth.

And in the first tenth Doctor episode -- no second chances. The old things pass away, so that the new things can come. Nobody gets out unscathed. That's life.

That's the lesson that the Doctor and Rose learn and teach, over and over, in the second season. Rose makes the choice to stay with the Doctor, to never choose to leave, but that doesn't mean that she gets to stay. Everything ends, whether you want it to or not.

Everything changes -- with the death of something old, comes the birth of something new. The ninth Doctor died, but the tenth is here now. Cassandra is dead, but she helped to create a new people. Sarah Jane has said her good-byes to the Doctor, but there's a Smith in the TARDIS again now.

Television is life compressed, cut down and intensified. They can't show us Rose and the Doctor travelling together for fifty years. But they can show us both sides wanting to.

The same kind of thing happened in Buffy -- romance and life compressed. Because every relationship ends. By death or choice or pain. There is no romance that lasts forever, no happiness that is not eventually ended. This is as true in life as it is in television... it's just that television tends to work in a shorter timeframe.

If she stayed with him eighty years, still, one day, the Doctor would lose Rose (or she would lose him again) and it would be forever and it would be impossible to fix. You can't fix life.

Everything ends.

That said, does that make the choice to love and to promise forever any less meaningful? Only if it does so in our world as well. Just because Rose can't stay with the Doctor forever doesn't mean that she shouldn't stay as long as she is able. Just because the Doctor knows that 'forever' can't actually mean 'forever', it doesn't render the words meaningless. Their depth of affection is such that they are willing to live as if they could have forever together, as if they could stay with each other until every sun has burned up every planet and the universe is cold and dark (even here, in forever, everything ends). Rose's choice is no less fool-hardy than anyone else's.

No love affair can last forever -- all are ended, by death or irreconcilable differences.

In the Lord of the Rings, eventually, Aragorn will die and Arwen will stand by his tomb, weeping. Yet, knowing this, she makes the choice to be with him regardless. "If I leave him now, I will regret it forever." Pain comes and love dies. That doesn't make the choice to love any less important or any less true.

Rose loves the Doctor and, loving him, chooses to be with him. She knows that he's lonely and offers her company. She listens and speaks and gives him hugs and affection and trust. Over and over, the choice is presented to her and she chooses to stay.

That choice says a lot about how she feels about him, about Rose as a person. Her choice was the Doctor, always. As they both go on, from this point, they will both remember that. And the choice to stay matters, regardless of whether or not she actually could stay.

Comments

[obsessive24.livejournal.com]

That's beautiful and very insightful. Thank you.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I'm glad that it spoke to you. I really adore the relationship between Rose and the Doctor (both of her Doctors) and was actually really pleased with how the ending turned out.

[bop-radar.livejournal.com]

Great post! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I don't have much to add, but really enjoyed it. *G*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Glad you enjoyed! I adored Rose and her Doctor (both of them).

[jic]

*is inarticulate*

or not --

or is --

or --

I think it's important that it be a conscious choice rather than an assumption: that one chooses to act as if one has forever, even knowing that all things pass, rather than lacking awareness that things inevitably change. I spent too long living as if nothing would ever change (in spite of obvious evidence to the contrary), and now I hold tightly (too tightly, I fear) to the awareness of that inevitability, to the knowledge that at some point, the world as I know it will end and another will rise anew from the ashes.

The dichotomy between action and attitude has yet to be resolved.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I think it's important that it be a conscious choice rather than an assumption: that one chooses to act as if one has forever, even knowing that all things pass, rather than lacking awareness that things inevitably change. I spent too long living as if nothing would ever change (in spite of obvious evidence to the contrary), and now I hold tightly (too tightly, I fear) to the awareness of that inevitability, to the knowledge that at some point, the world as I know it will end and another will rise anew from the ashes.

Indeed. Speaking of Rose, we do see her choose to live this way, over and over. It isn't something that she just falls into -- she has to decide.

Everything ends, everything dies. Everything changes. I know you aren't a big fan of the CWG books, but this is a subject that they've really helped me with -- one of the suggestions in it is to enjoy everything, but need nothing. Enjoy what you have, while you have it, but be willing to let it go, know that you don't need it to survive.

When I want something, I always try to remind myself that that's exactly what it is -- I want it, I don't need it. The only thing that I can't survive without is myself.

I'm not always successful. I have huge fear of reaching out, because I hate rejection so very much. I feel, in many ways, that I do need approval and acceptance and and so I don't push. I'm still not at a place where I know in my heart that I only desire approval and acceptance, where I know that I'll survive the word 'no'.

[jic]

But WRT Dr Who - Right On.

[shaela]

That said, does that make the choice to love and to promise forever any less meaningful? Only if it does so in our world as well.

Exactly. This is something I always loved about Rose—she didn’t know how to let go of the people she loved. I know she caught a lot of flak for stringing Mickey along, but to me it was just another example of the same thing—she didn’t know how to break up with him without losing him.

Anyway, thanks for posting this.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. I'm glad that it spoke to you.

And I do agree that Rose didn't want to fully let go of Mickey. She wanted him in her life, to be part of her life, because she still cared about him. But she didn't know how to have Mickey without Mickey being a boyfriend. I do think (hope) that she'd learnt that part of things, by the end of her run.

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

I came here via the newsletter and have to say YES! YES! YES! That's just a beautiful explanation of her choice to stay with him and his choice to keep her as long as he can. And for me, that's part of why I love the relationship so much - it's ultimately doomed from the start, and yet they're strong enough to go ahead and commit to each other anyway, even after a realistic understanding of their situation sets in. Somehow, for me, this makes the relationship more poignant, more lovely, more tragic, and ultimately, truly great.

And I love, love that you brought Elves/Mortals into this - originally I came over from LotR fandom myself, and the comparison with the great epic romance of Arwen/Aragorn immediately leapt to mind. In fact, I just had this conversation & brought up A/A in relation to D/R not two weeks ago myself, probably on T&C :)

Splendid job! Bookmarking this *G*

Oh, PS:
That said, does that make the choice to love and to promise forever any less meaningful? Only if it does so in our world as well.

Thank you, just thank you. I think quite a lot of people could stand to hear that ;)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I want to go with the elves/mortals, cos it's the most Romantic (capital letters and all!) version of Doctor/Companion, but I'm too touched by the transcience. There's just no way he can't know that people leave no matter what they intend, as much as I can see Rose wanting it to be true enough that sheer force of will might make it real.

Course, I am also a bit unsure about the idea that if they ever want to leave they're less good than if they promise to stay forever. It feels a bit... mean to companions-as-a-concept? It ties them so directly to the Doctor that it removes a part of their existence, in some weird way. Which may make no sense whatsoever, but I find it so hard to see every other person the Doctor's known as not good enough because they found something else or got disillusioned or got too homesick to carry on. The meta bells chime a bit woefully at the idea that this is the new value of a companion, that their worth is to be measured by their willingness to stop wanting things.

And... "if it lasts forever, hope I'm the first to die." Being the mortal is the easy side of it. :S

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

Course, I am also a bit unsure about the idea that if they ever want to leave they're less good than if they promise to stay forever.

Ah - no! :-P I personally have never seen any shippers state or even imply that what the Doctor and Rose had in any way diminishes what he had with other companions (of course they're "good enough" - why wouldn't they be? Nobody's looking down their noses at past companions just because the relationships might have had a slightly different character).

And so far as I can tell, that misconception seems to be one of the major complaints about D/R shippers. But I don't think that's at all fair; it seems like a problem being created that isn't really there. Why people feel the need to do that...

It feels a bit... mean to companions-as-a-concept? It ties them so directly to the Doctor that it removes a part of their existence, in some weird way.

Mm, it sounds like you're saying that choosing to commit to another person somehow makes one less of a person themselves. If that's the case, then all the married couples out there are running around with their individual potentials unfulfilled ;) We don't look down on married couples in real life, so no reason to look down on commmitment in Who, yeah? Actually, in RL we tend to look at that ability to commit as a strength.

In the case of D/R, I'd rather say that choosing to commit is actually a great strength with those two and a personal step forward that makes them *more* than they were apart - it's deliberately choosing the hard path and accepting the consequences, eyes *wide* open. Which for the Doctor is a pretty big deal, considering his companion issues a la 'School Reunion'. And it's a huge step in maturity for Rose too - her illusions were all *shattered* with School Reunion and GitF, forcing her to grow up. And yet she accepts that and stays. After those eps, Rose is no naieve little girl. Yeah, she breaks down at the end of S2, but that's in no way a commentary on her understanding of the inevitable life cycle of their relationship - the separation is going to hurt like a mofo regardless; things don't hurt less just because you know they're coming (might be a bit more of a shock if it's sooner than you expected though). I don't see any reason to look down on the poor girl grieving as hard as she wants for a while, particularly since she's gotten on with her life & is really making something impressive of herself ;)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I personally have never seen any shippers state or even imply that what the Doctor and Rose had in any way diminishes what he had with other companions (of course they're "good enough" - why wouldn't they be? Nobody's looking down their noses at past companions just because the relationships might have had a slightly different character).

There's... a bit of it about. Random dismissals, often in fic for no apparent reason. (I don't know why it bothers me when biases creep into fic, because if it's something like a political agenda I can see it's worth as polemic. Hmm. Anyway!) And of course there's the retroshippers, so it's maybe into fannish politics and personal preferences? But some of it's made me headdesk sometimes. Woe.


And so far as I can tell, that misconception seems to be one of the major complaints about D/R shippers. But I don't think that's at all fair; it seems like a problem being created that isn't really there. Why people feel the need to do that...

I think it's died out from being fairly common early on? As fandom got to know each other ("new skool" and "old skool" mixing in a big melting pot of squee and meta and pr0n) it tailed off a bit. Which was nice. But, oh, those early posts about how non-Rose companions are like hamsters... (I don't know what this makes Jack. No one ever specified.)


Mm, it sounds like you're saying that choosing to commit to another person somehow makes one less of a person themselves.
We don't look down on married couples in real life, so no reason to look down on commmitment in Who, yeah?

Oh commitment, fine. Rose did that when she got in the blue box with a cheery bounce to her step. What squicked me out was that she seemed to stop seeing anything beyond that, and that she was the one to make concessions while the Doctor just went on buisiness-as-usual. It's a matter of degree, and for me it went a bit far on making her define herself as the Doctor's sidekick.


In the case of D/R, I'd rather say that choosing to commit is actually a great strength with those two and a personal step forward that makes them *more* than they were apart - it's deliberately choosing the hard path and accepting the consequences, eyes *wide* open.

As an entity they're supposed to be stronger together, which makes sense but she just loses something as it goes on. I'm not sure what it's trying to say, because it's a bit weird. She disowns her family in a strop to make things last forever when... well, she knows it can't, she has to know that.


Which for the Doctor is a pretty big deal, considering his companion issues a la 'School Reunion'.

Except he's just doing what he always did. Trailing someone along and not thinking about the fact that they'll leave while assuming it'll happen eventually. He's not commiting anymore than usual, which is why it seems horribly one-sided and makes me worry about sexism and stuff.


And it's a huge step in maturity for Rose too - her illusions were all *shattered* with School Reunion and GitF, forcing her to grow up. And yet she accepts that and stays. After those eps, Rose is no naieve little girl.

We're right back at giggling straight after, like nothing happened. She talks about forever like she believes it. I want to think she learned something, I'm just not sure she did.


I don't see any reason to look down on the poor girl grieving as hard as she wants for a while, particularly since she's gotten on with her life & is really making something impressive of herself ;)

I don't like the way it skipped over the alt!Torchwood career, because it's an impressive thing that shows her moving on (though I agree with the choice not to say she and Mickey were definitely back together). Instead it focusses for a considerable length of time on how sad she is, on how she misses the Doctor. Which seems like a very deliberate attempt to tie her to him, backed up a bit by RTD not wanting to give her a spin-off in case it undermined that ending by showing her having a life away from the Doctor.

It's worrying as a new standard, more than anything. Are companions never again going to be allowed to choose to leave? Is it supposed to reflect badly on them if they do?

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Course, I am also a bit unsure about the idea that if they ever want to leave they're less good than if they promise to stay forever. It feels a bit... mean to companions-as-a-concept? It ties them so directly to the Doctor that it removes a part of their existence, in some weird way. Which may make no sense whatsoever, but I find it so hard to see every other person the Doctor's known as not good enough because they found something else or got disillusioned or got too homesick to carry on. The meta bells chime a bit woefully at the idea that this is the new value of a companion, that their worth is to be measured by their willingness to stop wanting things.

This point of view baffles me a bit. Because if Rose had wanted to leave, then she would have wanted to leave and it would have been a valid choice. I don't think any less of Jo or Leela or whoever in the past for making the choice to leave. But it wouldn't've been in character for Rose and the choices that she had been consistently making since she decided that the Doctor was worth the heartbreak and the monsters. A Rose fan saying that choosing to stay is valid isn't the same as them saying that the choice to leave isn't.

Honestly, I'm surprised that you think that the huge Rose fans will want all the companions after her to want to stay that badly.

And... "if it lasts forever, hope I'm the first to die." Being the mortal is the easy side of it. :S

Honestly, I'd rather be on the immortal side of the equation. I would hate to cause my beloved to feel the pain of my death -- I'd rather be the one suffering. Though, mind you, I still wouldn't want to be immortal... though it would give me a chance to go through all the books that I want to read.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I came here via the newsletter and have to say YES! YES! YES! That's just a beautiful explanation of her choice to stay with him and his choice to keep her as long as he can. And for me, that's part of why I love the relationship so much - it's ultimately doomed from the start, and yet they're strong enough to go ahead and commit to each other anyway, even after a realistic understanding of their situation sets in. Somehow, for me, this makes the relationship more poignant, more lovely, more tragic, and ultimately, truly great.

That's definitely all of the things that I love about the relationship. Rose's eyes really get opened in Season Two and she decides to stay with a full awareness of what it may mean.

And I love, love that you brought Elves/Mortals into this - originally I came over from LotR fandom myself, and the comparison with the great epic romance of Arwen/Aragorn immediately leapt to mind. In fact, I just had this conversation & brought up A/A in relation to D/R not two weeks ago myself, probably on T&C :)

I love Arwen/Aragorn! Which has often made me feel out of place among many LotR fans, as there's a great amount of Eowyn/Aragorn love out there.

[miladyhawke.livejournal.com]

I love Arwen/Aragorn! Which has often made me feel out of place among many LotR fans, as there's a great amount of Eowyn/Aragorn love out there.

Aww, I know what you mean *hugs* But that was one of the great things about LotR though - I was actually an Aragorn/Legolas shipper and pretty much captained that for the longest time, and you so rarely saw anyone dissing Arwen. Random people on occassion, sure, but there weren't ship wars. Dr. Who seems to feel the need to fabricate one though :(

*in from who_daily*

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I want to believe it as beautiful like that, but I still... don't think she ever quite understood. :( It's the impotent need she comes out with on that beach, the regression as she throws herself against that wall. I can't forget that it's Sarah who has to come out with "everything dies," because she's already learned the hard way.

I think the Doctor goes about not thinking of the moment when they leave, other than hoping it turns out okay, like the Doctor's mentions of Jackie as though it's some thought bubbling away that that's where Rose will end up and he doesn't have to worry too much about her future if that's what happens. Just because he's the one who gets left over and over again, so there's no way he could not be thinking of it sometimes as a horrible truth and inevitability.

Whereas Rose is young, at that age where things last forever because you don't think too far ahead. That's her thing, her strength in some ways. Sheer enthusiasm partly because she doesn't see the endings of things. Hence her loss of innocence at the end of S2, where she's forced to (as it were) "grow up" all of a sudden and very harshly. Seeing how broken she was I get a bit squicked by Ten not preparing her for it properly. So I am a bit torn, because while it lasted it was fun for her and he wasn't too demanding (he holds his pain from her, for instance) but in the end... she's the one he broke. The one who couldn't see beyond that "forever" and who ended up rejecting everything. :(

*angsts*

Re: *in from who_daily*

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well, you already know that I disagree with you about Rose's level of understanding and maturity.

But she is faced with the knowledge that everything must end over and over in Season Two, and keeps deciding to stay on with the Doctor. It's just... made a point of several times in the series.

"Should I stay?" "Some things are worth getting your heart broken over."

"We both know that the Doctor is worth the monsters."

Being willing to stay to die on the impossible planet because she isn't willing to leave him there alone.

Saying in the very end that she chooses to be with him in danger over being with her mother in safety.

She just makes the choice so many times, with all of the information presented to her and with her dialogue showing that she gets the choice, that for her not to understand it would make her dumb and forgetful in a way that I really don't think the dialogue, acting, and overall tone of the show supports.

Re: *in from who_daily*

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Well, you already know that I disagree with you about Rose's level of understanding and maturity.

I want to think she gets it, but there's something... arg, I don't know the word. It's not "guileless." An innocence of some sort. A valuable one, one I'd expect from a girl of her age who was maybe a tiny bit sheltered. She's very optimistic about people and situations.


keeps deciding to stay on with the Doctor. It's just... made a point of several times in the series.

Maybe it's... I don't see her ever really considering going home other than as a thing she can do any time. You know? Like Jack did, like Mickey could have.

"We both know that the Doctor is worth the monsters."

That one's random and unsolicited. Also, I'm not sure he is, but then I'm drawn in by the dark side sometimes.


Being willing to stay to die on the impossible planet because she isn't willing to leave him there alone.

That was just scary to me! There's a lostness to her at that moment, like she really has no idea what else to do because she's so far gone. Kind of freaks me a bit that a nineteen year old girl can do that and it's okay somehow.


Saying in the very end that she chooses to be with him in danger over being with her mother in safety.

She wants the fantasy, for sure. She abandons her family because she doesn't think things end, and it's probably a good thing she never had to live with the consequences of that, cos that would have hurt her. And Ten doesn't look too happy about it either, cos like he says, that's her own mother.

She chooses, yeah, but whether she knows what she's choosing is another matter, that isn't ever really explored and perhaps for good reason. It'd be a bit depressing in some ways, place an ending on it early on.

[(Anonymous)]

Just because Rose can't stay with the Doctor forever doesn't mean that she shouldn't stay as long as she is able. Just because the Doctor knows that 'forever' can't actually mean 'forever', it doesn't render the words meaningless.

Well said. I do think this is the chasm that divides certain Who fans. From the nonshipper(or whatever you want to call it. Not liking how the relationship was portrayed)perspective, being a companion means coming and then going. Staying is not part of the deal, so when Rose wants to, it's an indication that something is wrong. She shouldn't want to stay, she should learn her lesson and GO.

Whereas from my perspective and as butterfly said so well, the fact that they weren't going to get some romantic ending doesn't mean that their choices were foolish. Rose doesn't have to leave to prove, oh yes, she really gets it. Holding on until they're forcibly separated is a valid choice, even it's not the one you think either one should make.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Well said. I do think this is the chasm that divides certain Who fans. From the nonshipper(or whatever you want to call it. Not liking how the relationship was portrayed)perspective, being a companion means coming and then going. Staying is not part of the deal, so when Rose wants to, it's an indication that something is wrong. She shouldn't want to stay, she should learn her lesson and GO.

Ah, you make things appear a bit more clearly. But that point of view seems so unfair to the Doctor, that he's just a lesson to be learnt, not a person with feelings and needs of his own.

Whereas from my perspective and as butterfly said so well, the fact that they weren't going to get some romantic ending doesn't mean that their choices were foolish. Rose doesn't have to leave to prove, oh yes, she really gets it. Holding on until they're forcibly separated is a valid choice, even it's not the one you think either one should make.

Yes, exactly. Yes. It's a valid choice.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I love your theme summary, and I agree absolutely. I too thought the theme was beautifully played out in "Doomsday".

I like it too that though it's a message of change and loss, the pervading outcome is that the love remains even after the change and loss.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I like it too that though it's a message of change and loss, the pervading outcome is that the love remains even after the change and loss.

*nods*

Yes, just because the Doctor and Rose are 'impossible' (he always liked impossible) doesn't mean that the love is gone. They'll remember each other -- she'll remember the experience of being with the Doctor, of having that great and wonderful adventure, and he knows the joy of knowing that she would have stayed, if she could have, that no matter what the circumstances, she chose him. He's had a lot, in his time, but I don't know if he's ever had that before.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Yes, just because the Doctor and Rose are 'impossible' (he always liked impossible) doesn't mean that the love is gone.

And it doesn't mean that it doesn't still enhance their lives - though they will be missing each other fiercely for a long time. I'm sure Rose's adventures with the Doctor will be something she will always remember as the turning point of her life.

Aside from the Doctor's knowledge that Rose would have stayed with him if she could have, how will he remember her? What changes did her love make in his life? I think there is plenty of reason to think she is uniquely special to him, and that she has had a signifcant influence on him. It's subtle enough to be difficult to prove canonically, but I think that she brought him out of the dark guilt that haunted him at the beginning of season 1, and reaffirmed the outlook he needed.

Not that his love needs any justification or rationalization.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

Works for me.