butterfly: (Destruction -- Anakin/Padmé)
[personal profile] butterfly

I just realized that I'm not highly involved in some of the fandoms of the shows that I watch. Therefore, these opinions may or may not be unpopular! I'll be guessing on some of them.

Doctor Who

1. Steven Moffat is vastly overrated. He's good at creating very intense and scary situations, but they fail to hold up under any sort of logic, including story logic. He has no concept of actual character continuity, not just with other writers in the series but with his own writing as well, however, he never forgets to make nods to his own previous cheap gags. This shows very clearly where his priorities are and, as far as I'm concerned, his association with DW should have ended with "Curse of the Fatal Death". That said, as long as he doesn't write it as set immediately following the previous episode, I probably will enjoy his S4 two-parter the first time through and I think I'll just avoid watching it a second time, so that the shine won't come off (the only episode of his that I didn't enjoy on first viewing was GitF and even that one was visually gorgeous).

2. Martha Jones was criminally underwritten for the most part and was used more as a plot device than a real person. And though Freema has a lovely smile and seems to be a wonderful and interesting person, she wasn't a strong enough actor to carry the character through the patches of thin writing. However, when the writing is good and playing to Freema's strengths, she's more than up to the task ('bones of the hand' is just a great moment, period).

3. The reason that Donna's cool is because she understood and connected with the Doctor on a human level, not because she smacked him around.

Obi-Wan and Anakin

1. Hmm. What's unpopular in this fandom? With regards to Obi-Wan -- Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan squicks me because it reads far too much like a father/son relationship. This is also why I didn't start shipping Obi-Wan and Anakin until the third movie -- Anakin reacted against Obi-Wan in Clones in a very 'rebellious son' sort of way. They were firmly equals in RotS (particularly from Obi-Wan's perspective) and that actually finally made the Republic Trilogy slashy for me. Before RotS, I was very gen (TPM) and het (AotC) focused in the fandom!

2. Speaking of non-slash, I really like Padmé. My favorite Obi-Wan/Anakin stories are ones that deal realistically with the fact that Anakin loves Padmé very deeply but also that his love for her and the manner he chooses to express it are destructive elements in his life.

Supernatural

1. Much as Ruby and Bela kick ass (and I do enjoy both of them greatly), I wish that we had a reoccurring female character this season that wasn't evil or dead. I'm vastly disappointed that Ellen vanished off the radar and that we didn't see Jo again after she finally got interesting (but, of course, if she's no longer a love interest, then she doesn't count. /sarcasm). SPN has been disappointing me a lot with its writing of female character recently and with Dean's attitude towards women.

2. Cassie ("Route 666") was a strong, vibrant character who meshed really well with Dean. I felt like her character's choices within the episode always made sense and I understood both why she slept with Dean and why she said good-bye to him at the end. Cassie = fabulous.

3. I don't get the squee over the matching Winchester tattoos. Not my thing.

More later!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] llywela13.livejournal.com
I don't get the squee over the matching Winchester tattoos. Not my thing.
Got to agree with that one, although I do really like the concept of the tattoos and, more than anything else, Sam's glum admission that they didn't think of it soon enough. When you think of the memories both he and his dad were left with as a result of being possessed, and when you think of Dean being tortured by the two people in the world he loves best as a result of demonic possession...yeah, that's where the cool factor of the tattoos comes in. Not the fact that they match, but the attempt they symbolise to never let that happen again, and the acknowledgement that the idea didn't come soon enough.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 07:47 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Indeed. I do feel so bad for Dean, having to go through what he did with both John and Sam.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 07:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] llywela13.livejournal.com
Oh, man, and the fact that he has never held it against either one of them. You'd expect there to be a little resentment, no matter how much he knows, intellectually, that they were possessed and had no control over what happened. But he internalises all that so much, and all his anger and resentment gets buried so deep, it's scary.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 07:44 pm (UTC)
ext_2366: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sdwolfpup.livejournal.com
Cassie = fabulous

OMG. I agree SO HARD with this. I thought I was the only one.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 07:46 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I know! There's so much Cassie-hate in fandom (and the actress gets attacked so much, too. Still.), which I knew about beforehand and then I watched the episode and... bafflement. Because she was simply grand.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 10:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] millylicious.livejournal.com
No, you're definitely not the only one.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anoel.livejournal.com
I definitely agree with #1. I don't get all the LOVE for him.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:16 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Moffat gets so much praise but from where I'm standing Paul Cornell is definitely the best writer they've gotten on the show ("Father's Day" and "Human Nature"/"Family of Blood"). Much better than Moffat when it comes to emotional resonance and creating something that stands up over time (FD still makes me weep every time that I see it and Joan and John rip my heart out in HN/FoB and it has some of Martha's best moments ever).

I think part of why Moffat doesn't appeal to me as much is because he writes the companions much more generically -- Rose could have been the companion in "Blink" very easily and Rose and Mickey weren't at all needed for GitF.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 10:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] millylicious.livejournal.com
Oh god, GitF? So horribly overrated. It's a good episode, especially after a few rewatches when I finally got over how annoyed I was with Rose being pushed in the role of the character that doesn't matter (and it took watching the invision commentary with Sophia and David for me to enjoy the show, especially since Sophia kept pointing out moments between Rose and Reinette as being some of the most significant ones in the entire episode). To me, it feel like this episode could be moved around in any series, any episode number, with any companion, and there would be no modification to the episode. It's like he has no interest in continuity, as long as his story gets to be told. He's better working in Doctor-lite episodes like Blink, because those need strong concepts to make up for the Doctor not being there as much, but even then, I agree that his version of the DW characters are generic and only server to drive the plot he envisionned.

And I so, so agree on Paul Cornell. His episodes are simply stunning.

So, I guess, what I'm saying is 'word'.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:16 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
To me, it feel like this episode could be moved around in any series, any episode number, with any companion, and there would be no modification to the episode. It's like he has no interest in continuity, as long as his story gets to be told.

Exactly. It's all about him, not about the bigger story. And in modern television that can be very jarring.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] librarianstales.livejournal.com
I find Steven Moffat seems to get extreme reactions from most DW fans that I know. They either love him or hate him. I loved Blink and Empty Child/Doctor Dances. I generally have a lot of love for those episodes and few complaints. Not so crazy about Girl in the Fireplace. The characterization of the Doctor, Rose and Mickey is often awkward and doesn't seem to fit the overall characterization of the show. Furthermore, the Doctor's choice to go back in time to rescue the girl is complicated in the least. The Doctor's actions could have been incredibly self-sacrificing if it didn't strand Rose and Mickey (possibly leaving them to die).

Is this some sort of meme? I have some unpopular opinions.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:18 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Yep. An 'unpopular opinions' meme is going around at the moment.

I just find Moffat's writing to be fairly shallow in general -- writing generically rather than specifically when it comes to people. He's quite good at creating scary moments and intense moments, though.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] librarianstales.livejournal.com
I think he does best with new, original characters but has difficulty placing the recurring characters, particularly in the story arcs established by others. In the episodes he writes, it is usually the new characters that seem to "work" and the usually characters that don't; who seem awkward. Most of the other writers in Doctor Who don't seem to have this problem. While they are a number of writers for the series (like any series) they don't have difficulty keep the Doctor & Co "in character." They don't seem to have difficulty building off of the character developments of previous episodes written by other writers. I think Moffat's underlying problem is that this is his biggest weakness as a writer.

I've always loved watching the new characters in his episodes. That is his strength. Captain Jack Harkness, Madam de Pompodoure(sp?) and Sally Sparrow (along with all the other characters original in that episode) worked. They are believable as human beings. That is great, but in some ways, the Doctor and companion suffer. Those episodes really aren't about them in a fundamental way, even if they were supposed to be.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:32 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Hmm, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's like he's taking the Doctor Who out of DW. The Doctor and the companion are the least important parts of his episodes.

I think Moffat would do really well doing a sci-fi anthology (like the Twilight Zone) where there are no reoccurring characters.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] librarianstales.livejournal.com
Exactly! He would be great for the Twilight Zone.

I think the really thing, when it comes to Moffat, is just to go, "Ah, a Moffat story, so it really isn't at all about the Doctor and his Companion." Which, I know, the reason you which DW is for the Doctor and his companion! (And in this sense, I can really sympathize with your opinion). I suspect this upcoming two-parter will be scary and all about his newest new character. She'll probably be good too. The Doctor and Donna probably won't be written at their best.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:40 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
You're probably right on all accounts. I actually do really like the Twilight Zone, so if I pretend I'm watching an episode of that and the Doctor and Donna just happen to be guest-starring in it, well, that may help.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] librarianstales.livejournal.com
LOL! Moffat-viewing therapy!

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] librarianstales.livejournal.com
Also...

*leaps into icon*

*fondles Five in horribly naughty ways*

For some strange reason, Five is cursing in all of my Five icons.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:37 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Five is so great. I just watched 'Resurrection of the Daleks' and Tegan's good-bye made me so sad! Especially when they made it so clear that she will miss him dearly but it's just too much death and horror for her to stand. He's not worth the monsters for her, not anymore.

*pets Tegan*

*pets the Doctor*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-white-rain.livejournal.com
1. I was going to add and he has good dialogue because I'd just watched TEC/TDD, but damn GitF was so wooden. Unlike the more natural and funny lines in TEC/TDD. But, otherwise, I agree.

2. I'm really hoping for some character development for with the Doctor that covers new ground. And maybe with her family too. And I hope I like the guy she's going to marry.

3. I agree 100%

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:18 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
1. *nods* He can write very good dialogue when he's not trying too hard to be poetical. He's very good at creating intense situations and characters. As far as writers go, he doesn't suck. But he's a bit self-absorbed and it shows.

2. Me, too! I really hope that we see something different and interesting with her in S4.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-white-rain.livejournal.com
1) He can do a lot well, but the things he does, I don't tend to care about. So I'd be cool if he never wrote another script for Who agian.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:25 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Agreed 100%. I would love it if he would wander off and create his own TV show again. And then I could not watch it and the people who love him could watch it and everyone would be happy.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-white-rain.livejournal.com
Perfect! /o/

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 09:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dividedloyalty.livejournal.com
On Dc Who, I have to agree on Martha Jones. The character is lovely, and so is the actress, but something was definetely off. Honestly, I'm not quite sure what exactly, because sometimes it seems the actress is left hanging to dry, maybe poor directing. Sometimes, it seems something else entirely. Whic I, personally, think it's a damn shame.

On Star Wars, well, that's something else. I find the concept of a Master/Padawan relationship (as in sexual and/or romantic sense) highly believable. Unlike, for instance, Wincest, which I only think looks good, mainly because both actors are gorgeous and would look gorgeous making out hehe. But would totally squirm if it was actually on screen *shivers*
But that would only be the case from AotC onwards. Anything previous would also make me squirm on the underage territory. *shivers*

On Spn... I thought Cassie was a hell of a character, but that actress couldn't sell me water if I was standing on the Sahara. Seriously. It was painful to watch her. Painful.

Other than that, spot on. Female characters on that show are always a miss. And I never got that fans didn't like Jo, but like the demon with a Magic!knife, or the thief with a Tragic!Past, and say Jo was a Mary Sue. I don't get it.


(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:24 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
On Dc Who, I have to agree on Martha Jones. The character is lovely, and so is the actress, but something was definetely off. Honestly, I'm not quite sure what exactly, because sometimes it seems the actress is left hanging to dry, maybe poor directing. Sometimes, it seems something else entirely. Whic I, personally, think it's a damn shame.

Given that, for me, the issues remain no matter who is directing her, I think it's a casting/acting problem. Freema is much stronger playing certain parts of the character (the competent 'doctor' stuff I always buy from her and when she plays 'daughter' I also have no problems with emotional resonance).

I don't at all understand calling Jo a Mary-Sue. When I didn't like her (primarily only in 'No Exit'), it was because she was acting like a brat. I found her to feel extremely young (so much so that the notion of Jo/Dean squicked me) but... yeah, Mary-Sue is a stretch. These days Mary-Sue is just fandom's word for 'female character who likes the same male character that I like'.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-04 09:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dividedloyalty.livejournal.com
These days Mary-Sue is just fandom's word for 'female character who likes the same male character that I like'.

There you go. I couldn't agree with you more.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] goldy-dollar.livejournal.com
Definitely agree with all your DW thoughts, but especially this:

3. The reason that Donna's cool is because she understood and connected with the Doctor on a human level, not because she smacked him around.

The last thing the Doctor needs is more abuse. I don't mind so much when they play the slapping for laughs, but stuff like "Donna will smack the Doctor and keep him in line" REALLY make me twitchy.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:27 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I know! I seriously do not understand this point of view. Of course, I dislike the notion of violence being used as an acceptable method of behavior modification anyway, so, that's to be expected.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 09:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tijsmans.livejournal.com
I'm totally with you on your unpopular DW opinions 2 & 3. Not sure how I feel about 1 though. I generally like Moffat's writing (and his characterisation of both Nine and Ten) but I do feel something is very wrong with GitF. It's a gorgeous episode, visually, and I like the plot (especially the time paradox), and I think it's nice that the audience knows something the Doctor does not (the name of the space ship, which explains the robots' obsession with Madame de Pompadour) but - the Doctor and Reinette could not have bonded so quickly. They could not have. Well, he couldn't - for her it's a different story, what with him being around from childhood up to adulthood, for her, in some way, as her guardian angel. It's only natural she idealizes him. But he? Could not be taken in by her so quickly. Especially because - HE HAD ROSE DAMMIT.

I think we already talked about this once. Doesn't hurt repeating it though. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:30 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Right. It just doesn't fit with the emotional continuity of the series.

Blink doesn't really either (the Doctor and Martha's relationship is not quite like that in either the proceeding or the following episodes) but it's less obvious because Moffat doesn't have the script tell us that the episode immediately follows the previous one and because the Doctor and Martha's relationship isn't as close as his was with Rose anyway.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-02 10:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blue-berry.livejournal.com
Cassie *is* awesome, and it is so, so nice to see her getting some love! ♥

And yeah, whilst I have no issue with them introducing new female characters (yay!) I did enjoy Ellen and Jo, and their absence does feel icky on several levels. Things like Ellen's absence seeming to boil down to Samantha Ferris not being born in 1988 do not make for comfortable viewing.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:32 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
Cassie is wonderful!

Yeah -- I wish someone would tell Kripke that adding two new female characters doesn't mean that the previous two need to randomly disappear.

*sigh*

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 06:46 am (UTC)
nic: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nic
I tend to see Moffat as a great writer of STAND-ALONE shows. He doesn't necessarily know New-Who, or the characters, but his concepts are very cool.

However, if he's writing his own show end-to-end, then his characterisation is brilliant.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 06:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] solitude-82.livejournal.com
i agree. coupling and jekyll are two of my alltime favorite shows.

but i personally think moffat writes great DW eps too. TEC/TDD are two of my favorite Who eps ever.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:40 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I liked 'Coupling' when I first watched it, but after reading some of Moffat's opinions elsewhere, I can't stand to watch it anymore either (despite completely adoring Jack Davenport to bits).

There's a lot to love in TEC/TDD, though I find that those are the episodes where I like Captain Jack the least.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-03 10:31 pm (UTC)
ext_1774: butterfly against blue background (Default)
From: [identity profile] butterfly.livejournal.com
I would love it if he would just go ahead and do another series, with his own characters. I probably wouldn't watch it, but it would make a lot of people happy and it would mean that DW wouldn't have odd continuity bumps.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-04 01:26 am (UTC)
ext_22618: (Default)
From: [identity profile] bewarethespork.livejournal.com
(Here from [livejournal.com profile] who_daily.)

Personally, I love Moffat. But I do agree that his episodes don't always fit in with season continuity. Blink was my favourite episode of S3, but it was my favourite episode as a standalone; that is, I could have watched it independently of the rest of the season and still enjoyed it. That may or may not be a good thing. I guess I just loved Blink enough to take it as a good thing.

I was a big Martha fan, and I think Freema did a good job with what she was given, but I do agree that she was somewhat underwritten and underdeveloped. I'm hoping (though not too expectant) that this will be sort-of remedied in the future.

And although I did love the slapping!Donna moments, my favourite scenes in The Runaway Bride were: the two of them sitting on the roof of that building and just talking, watching the creation of Earth and the end, where Donna tells the Doctor he needs someone to stop him.

Basically? I don't know whether or not your opinions are unpopular, but I kind of agree with most of them.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-05 12:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thehornedgod.livejournal.com
I'm from the internet to save the future! No, wait, sorry, let me come in again.

I'm here from [livejournal.com profile] who_daily to agree with your unpopular opinions about Who.

The Donna one isn't controversial except in its rejection of fandom's baying lust for female-on-male domestic violence. I like Donna very much.

Criminally underwritten is spot on about Martha and it wasn't until I heard David phoning up pretending to be a fan when she was on a radio show that I remembered what a lovely person Freema is. My own favourite Martha lines are 'And then I could get sectioned!' and the whole exchange about the Doctor's regrown hand. I think if they wrote to Freema's strengths, Martha could be another Ianto. As it is though, she's just not a character. She's completely generic; nice compassionate professional job to appease the sneerier fans and the obligatory crush on the Doctor. No other characteristics of note.

I never thought I would find someone who agreed with me about Moffat, but as far as I'm concerned, his association with DW should have ended with "Curse of the Fatal Death" is putting it hilariously harshly. I don't think he's a bad writer, just not as good as RTD, Cornell, Whithouse...

(no subject)

Date: 2008-04-14 05:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thegrungediva.livejournal.com
Darn it, I just noticed a post I thought I had made never made it ... must've been one of the many times I got booted mid-post and never got back to it.

So:

DW: Unpopular maybe. But not wrong. Like I said today, for a British medical intern who's supposed to be super-smart to ask "what's Bedlam?" (especially in response to the context of being the place where a man who lost his mind was sent) .... thin character, really bad writing, and disappointing moment for me.

And WRT Moffat: did he write the "Doctor, the earth is being attacked by isotopes" line? If so, yes, for that alone he deserves the fingernails-on-the-blackboard punishment!

SW: IMHO (and this is fairly universally agreed) The first movies (from the 70s) were good and fun. I have very little good to say of the prequel trilogy. There was one good moment in Ep I, and the rest... well, I could crap better writing and plot development (and I'm not a very good writer), the acting was horrible (and I know I can't really blame the actors, as I've seen them all do brilliant work in other things), and even the music was mediocre at best (that I know something of!). So to get into the nuances of slashing Ani and Obi ... my feeling was, what's the point? Just not worth the brain power.

SPN: I would have to say that the women are portrayed no worse in 3rd season than in 1 and 2. There are strong women in all 3 who have their character flaws, and not so great women in all 3 who have some good things going for them. Kinda like the way the men are portrayed. And, come to think of it, kind of like real people. Which is one of the things that makes this show so good: even its weaker eps, there are still good points.

So ... you promised us Buffy and Firefly, and I would like some Angel too. :) Cause we know you have just loads of time (kidding)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-08-13 07:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fey-spirit.livejournal.com
3. The reason that Donna's cool is because she understood and connected with the Doctor on a human level, not because she smacked him around.

Although that was pretty damn good too.

BTW - I know this is old, but I went back to the beginning of this year because well I fangirl your Metas.

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